7 stupid overdused arguments against buffing PvE frost (and why they're wrong)

[Fahren Kaa]

7 stupid overdused arguments against buffing PvE frost (and why they're wrong)

7) Frost mage DPS is fine

It isn't. You either raid with an uncompetitive guild, raid level 80 (60?) instances, are flat out ignorant or antagonizing for reasons such as teen angst, PvP angst, attempted trolling, are 12 y/o etc. In any case, look at parses, ask around, or, hell, make a mage, and find out for yourself. The last boss from Throne of Tides is not a legitimate dps test.

6) "I only have 1 viable spec!!1 So don't cry!1!"

No one is saying you shouldn't have 3, so why do people keep bringing this one up? I'm all for diversity - including other classes, and whoever wouldn't be would be flat out closed minded or, hell knows.

5) "Blizz" said they didn't want / care if all classes and specs weren't equal "or whatever source you cite"

Yup, and that honestly sucks, don't you think? Tweaking numbers is easy, so one might ask themselves, why not do it? Mysteries, mysteries.

4) Frost mages have more survivability than other classes

You're probably thinking of Ice Barrier and Cold Snap/Ice Block here. Here's a news flash: Ice Barrier sucks shitty donkey balls. From the WoTLK times, Ice Barrier's absorb'tion has merely increased by 3000, while my health pool has increased fourfolds. Denying 10,000 damage is negligible at best in a raiding environment. Add in the fact that it costs a global cooldown (either that or two talent points), and you're in not to be using this at all except potentially for the extra 4 seconds freeze that it may bring under gimmicky circumstances (assuming that, again, you invested two talent points for this "perk").

"Yesh, but they get two ice blocks!1"

Shut the hell up. Any f-mage worth their salt is using Cold Snap for another Deep Freeze. Let me tell you, though: I've cleared everything up in this tier, and if I ever need to Ice Block, that means I royally fucked up deeply somewhere. Which I never do.

3) Frost mages bring more "utility" (control?) to a raid, and should therefore deal less DPS than other classes

Yeah, and this utility costs GCD's to applies, which in itself, leads to a loss of DPS. What about fights where, you know, no control is needed? Left to rot under everyone else? By that I mean, I can understand dealing less DPS on a fight where you -WOULD- bring utility, but on others? Suggestions might include a shared cooldown between RoF and DF. That's also solve some of the PvP tears flowing, but again, wayyy too insightful to be considered.

2) "Frost mage owned me in WSG, so they shouldn't be able to PvE!11"

The "frost is good at pvp, therefore shouldn't be at pve" is such a pathetic arguement it makes me teeth grind. The only reason these "people" forget to provide is, of course, "WHY". There are many ways of increasing PvE's damage output without touching PvP's. Deep Freeze anyone? And how about... a talent that provides X for chain casting 7 frost bolts? Oh gee, that's way too much!! TOO HARD TO IMPLEMENT! My ass.

1) Life is unfair

That doesn't mean it should stay that way. Especially when the issue's easy to solve.

[Selkhet]

Frost PVE is like Subtlety PVE. Just... no. Go Fire or wait 'till they fix Arcane.

[Valanna]

Frost PVE is like Subtlety PVE. Just... no. Go Fire or wait 'till they fix Arcane.

Compelling argument. Thanks.

[Deleted]

I royally fucked up deeply somewhere. Which I never do.

Mister Perfect in the forums yo! Maybe you should consider blocking to save your healers some mana eh?

Furthermore, Frost PvE is UP and Frost PvP is OP. Until they find a way to balance both aspects without kicking one up over the Sun, you should play your OTHER viable specs, just like everyone else.

[Deleted]

i'd love it if my mage had more than one viable spec atm but the last thing i want is another deep freeze. i mean, it was just so...weird. having a 30 sec cd instant cast do a bazzilion k's damage. the idea with x frostbolts in a row buff sounds better.

[Smigel]

I liked the idea that with Cataclysm is was going to be more about completing the encounter rather than obsessing about being the top DPS.

If you've cleared everything up in this tier then why do you feel that your spec is inadequate? Have you cleared it as Fire but not as Frost?

[Baever]

What they need to fix for frost PvE more than anything right now is it's abysmal AoE dps.

[Jademist]

I still never liked the idea of Frost being a PvE spec...and water elementals being perma pets. And I've played a mage since Vanilla. Fire, though. And arcane for PvP.

But its true. Frost PvE is quite UP and Frost PvP quite OP.

And yes, there's a shaman in my sig. That's because I rerolled shaman recently and I love him more than my mage.

[Boosch]

Your letter of pure rage is rather frustrating to read - when you provide your "reasons" as to why another thing is wrong, you are just saying (in every case) "That's wrong!" with little, or often no information to back your stance.

Your assertions that it is "easy" to tweak numbers, or create talents, or balance those talents/skills are enough to make anyone who has ever worked in something even remotely resembling a system with as many variables as WoW has (not to mention the player variables) want to smash their heads against a wall. It is not easy - if it were, there'd be no money in it, and it would happen far more frequently.

While anyone can understand the frustration of being "left behind" (note: I am not confirming that that is the case, just playing to the point here) that doesn't mean that you should be going and creating threads without doing at least a little research. If you want to argue, get a counter argument. "You're wrong" does not suffice.

Your DPS may be low, and that's fine - just play what you enjoy, and hope for a buff. If you like playing something that Blizzard isn't concerned about - too bad, they'll either get to it, or you should learn to like it or play slightly differently to fit the model of the character/class.

[Deleted]

I really think frost needs a major control nerf, like frost nova sharing cd with pet freeze, and a damage buff (~5%).
I dont have main mage, but thats the image i get seeing mages. Tbh, fire's still there, and all you need to do is reforge/regem from frost and be effective. There are classes which other spec need different gear as well, and that's a pain in the butt, so at least mages ain't got it very bad.

[Hraklea]

Good points, but you're forgeting Blizzard policies. While they want to keep the game both PvE and PvP, you can't ask all trees to be balanced in PvE and PvP.

Oh gee, that's way too much!! TOO HARD TO IMPLEMENT! My ass.

You can't balance both PvE and PvP in a MMO at the same time. If you think you can, you have no idea how game design works.

[Mexa]

I didnt read all of the OP's first post cus i dont like reading long whine posts.
However, pure classes cant be balanced. Making 3 totally differant specs as good on every encounter cant be done. So how about u adapt to whatever spec is the best PVE spec atm and try making something out of it, instead of whining about specs that arent as good.

[Garehn Vi-Brittania]

damage is fine imo, ive seen frost mages pull like 14k in heroics. the problem with pvp is they have too much mobility, every attack practically applies a slowing effect, and it seems like they have an endless amount of roots. oh not to mention a 15 sec cd blink-out-of-stuns trinket and 2 ice blocks

[Valanna]

like frost nova sharing cd with pet freeze

I take it you've never played a mage then. If you're oblivious or have no knowledge of the subject at hand, please stay out of the discussion.

[Irony]

All 3 specs shouldn't be viable for DPS, have one dedicated to Pvp, so when you screw around with Frost, it doesn't affect raiders.
Also, your fifth point is just so stupid. Its more complex then simply fixing numbers.

[Odina]

Good points, but you're forgeting Blizzard policies. While they want to keep the game both PvE and PvP, you can't ask all trees to be balanced in PvE and PvP.



You can't balance both PvE and PvP in a MMO at the same time. If you think you can, you have no idea how game design works.

What if they did this

Deep freeze now also provides a 20% dmg buff for 30 seconds after successfully doing damage to the target.


Looks like I just re-wrote how game designs work!

[Mexa]

damage is fine imo, ive seen frost mages pull like 14k in heroics. the problem with pvp is they have too much mobility, every attack practically applies a slowing effect, and it seems like they have an endless amount of roots. oh not to mention a 15 sec cd blink-out-of-stuns trinket and 2 ice blocks

14k DPS on 2 mins fight isnt much. especially considdering frost mages PVE burst, which i guess is the best burst atm (i havent pved in cata.. dont judge me), With BL, 2x icy veins and 2x Deep freeze.

[Aired]

I have seen frost mages pull competative DPS.
You cant play the class. Others can.
Stop QQing that it isn't a class that can pull DPS.

[Valanna]

14k DPS on 2 mins fight isnt much. especially considdering frost mages PVE burst, which i guess is the best burst atm (i havent pved in cata.. dont judge me), With BL, 2x icy veins and 2x Deep freeze.

It's basically an insane burst if you get your trinket procs early. I've had as high as 50k burst dps on a non-gimick fight when both my trinkets and power torrent procced the first 5 seconds, had 2 FFOs and 2 deep freezes of 180k each. I don't know any fight where doing 500k the first 15 seconds is all that useful though. It's fun critting insanely high, but hardly of any particular use.

I have seen frost mages pull competative DPS.
You cant play the class. Others can.
Stop QQing that it isn't a class that can pull DPS.

Get your shit straight and look at statistics rather than judging by that one frost mage you had the privilege of playing with once, 'cause he was a much better player than you, obviously. He might have beat you, but he shouldn't have, because he's behind both in math and statistics. Just because a better player finished higher than you in a sub-par spec doesn't make the spec OK again.

[Carthelm]

For the record, on Al'Akir it's very helpful in phase 2 to ice block to clear your stacks of acid rain, ice block can be used not just to save yourself but to save your healers mana and make it so they can save someone else, but yes, no mage would use a double ice block over double deep freeze.