What Should A PVP Frost Mage Gem ?!

[Swizzle]

Crit is burst, but Int is sustained and survivability. That's why it's still valued more than other stats.

[rtjason]

I don't fully agree on this.

Ideally Int should trumph everything since it's a primary stat.
When you actually burst someone, it's 90% during people being in novas/frozen/FoF.
Meaning the crit is worth 3 times more.

Leads to:
120 crit vs 40 int when actually bursting. Don't misunderstand me though, i know you and all other mages are aware of this 100%, BUT STILL don't maximize their crit for it.


Controlled burst > huge random bursts.

Honestly I don't think the gems are really that much of an issue since you have to activate your meta and crit obviously outweighs any other yellow gem color, you really don't have that much flexibility with gemming.

[Deleted]

Gem icelance!

Why can't there be a "Report post for awesomeness" option

[rtjason]

Crit is burst, but Int is sustained and survivability. That's why it's still valued more than other stats.

Your sustained damage right now is almost all ice lance, since a mage is almost always a good target to train. Unless it's changed, that used to be around a .4 coefficient on your spellpower. Then as far as survivability goes, I'm assuming you mean mana shield/ice barrier. Not sure on mana shield but I think Ice barrier was around .8. Then when you take a look at crit and figure on getting around 1-1.5 more with gems(I think), which is 4% more on shatters.

I'm pretty sure that over a long fight they come out around even, but I don't think that the extra 300 or so on ice barrier or 100-200 damage on ice lance can make up the difference for and extra crit on ice lance every 20 or so. Obviously the numbers are not exact and the mechanics are redundant for you, but they are more for everyone else.

[Omegadark]

if u want to be a good mage i suggest gemming more frostbolt/less ice lance... just try it... see how much harder it is without ice lance...

[Hotfish]

Now, after you've reached the spell pen cap, the best thing to gem in blue slots is actually hit. This allows you to reforge hit off your gear to crit (or haste if that's what you prefer), and gives the greatest overall stat gains (in terms of useful stats).

?

I wasn't aware you can reforge gemmed stats off of gear.

[Goliethlol]

?

I wasn't aware you can reforge gemmed stats off of gear.

The alternatives suggested in the thread previously were to gem stamina in blue sockets, which is hilariously bad.
You can gem hit, which allows you to reforge hit off of your actual gear pieces to useful damage stats like crit or haste, while maintaining the hit cap. At the risk of being patronizing I'll explain it in another way in case you really aren't grasping this simple concept.

Let's assume I have 4.2% hit from gear, and I have 4 blue sockets to use.

In scenario A) I gem them with stamina.
In scenario B) I gem them with hybrid hit gems pushing me to 4.7% hit. Then I reforge a piece with hit to crit, dropping me to 4.1% hit and granting me 0.5% crit

So the gain in scenario A) is a bit of stamina, and in scenario B) it is a bit of crit.

This is what I meant, and if you can't comprehend this then I really don't know what to say...

[rtjason]

if u want to be a good mage i suggest gemming more frostbolt/less ice lance... just try it... see how much harder it is without ice lance...

This makes no sense at all. If you want to come in and troll, making fucking sense when you do it.

[Skarrd]

The alternatives suggested in the thread previously were to gem stamina in blue sockets, which is hilariously bad.
You can gem hit, which allows you to reforge hit off of your actual gear pieces to useful damage stats like crit or haste, while maintaining the hit cap. At the risk of being patronizing I'll explain it in another way in case you really aren't grasping this simple concept.

Let's assume I have 4.2% hit from gear, and I have 4 blue sockets to use.

In scenario A) I gem them with stamina.
In scenario B) I gem them with hybrid hit gems pushing me to 4.7% hit. Then I reforge a piece with hit to crit, dropping me to 4.1% hit and granting me 0.5% crit

So the gain in scenario A) is a bit of stamina, and in scenario B) it is a bit of crit.

This is what I meant, and if you can't comprehend this then I really don't know what to say...

I'm not entirely sure why you are saying gemming is better than gearing. I understand the concept in the quote and certainly agree with the stam vs hit comparison, but I'm at a loss for the crit vs hit comparison. Hit and crit have the same value in gems and on gear, so it wouldn't really matter what you use to get there as long as you're not wasting any hit over the cap. Not sure I see the advantage, is all, so feel free t elaborate on why gemming hit pulls ahead of gearing for it.

Additionally, what's the consensus with gemming vs gearing spell pen? I'm actually pretty out of it on the pvp gearing scene atm, as I'm not even sure what the ideal spell pen cap is. My current planw as to just get the spell pen neck and one solid gem, then a hybrid when I have the vicious version of the neck.

[EllipsisGH]

What Should A PVP Frost Mage Gem ?!

Anything you want, you'll still be able to slaughter everyone dumb enough to enter your range.

[Goliethlol]

I'm not entirely sure why you are saying gemming is better than gearing. I understand the concept in the quote and certainly agree with the stam vs hit comparison, but I'm at a loss for the crit vs hit comparison. Hit and crit have the same value in gems and on gear, so it wouldn't really matter what you use to get there as long as you're not wasting any hit over the cap. Not sure I see the advantage, is all, so feel free t elaborate on why gemming hit pulls ahead of gearing for it.

Additionally, what's the consensus with gemming vs gearing spell pen? I'm actually pretty out of it on the pvp gearing scene atm, as I'm not even sure what the ideal spell pen cap is. My current planw as to just get the spell pen neck and one solid gem, then a hybrid when I have the vicious version of the neck.

Because hit is a blue gem, and crit is a yellow gem. So it's a matter of what to gem in blue sockets.






As for spell pen, you need 240 to cap vs mages with pally aura or totems, so you need both a piece of gear and a gem (or cloak enchant, however you get better overall stats with 1 gem in a blue socket + the int enchant to cloak). You could technically get away with 195 as that is the cap for all other class combinations in arenas, however, you put yourself at a fairly significant disadvantage vs that specific class combination than if you had simply chose to sacrifice that 1 extra gem.

Just to reiterate this point I'll quote my post from the previous page:

You will need 1 spell penetration gem (50) plus either the penetration neck or cape (201) to be capped vs mages with resistance aura or resistance totems (240). It is imperative to be spell pen capped as resistances now also give a flat damage reduction to spells, on top of the added chance to completely resist them. 195 resistance (ie: aura or totem) gives a flat 24.92% damage reduction to spells, and the added resistance that mage armor gives increases it to 29%. Sacrificing 1 blue gem slot (which usually contains a hybrid gem anyways) to fully cap spell pen, is generally the best idea.

So using 1 gem to completely cap vs other mages in arenas gives a 4.08% damage increase, plus removes the random resist chance, of your Frost or Fire spells. It's not required I suppose to go past 195, however I get really, really upset when random chance mechanics determine the outcomes of games (That fucking reflect meta is the absolute worst)






If you're asking if it's better to get all of your spell pen from gems, and then use a non pen cloak / neck, then the answer is a simple no. The spell pen version of the cape / neck gives 201 stats, which is equivalent to 4.02 gems (@50 stats each). The non spell pen versions give 134 stats, which is only equivalent to 3.35 gems (@40 stats each). Secondly, you are restricted to haste on neck and mastery on cape if you choose to use the non spellpen versions.

After re-reading my post I know for certain that many people will misunderstand my point about the stat equivalent vs gem ratio. It would take 4.02 gems to get the equal amount of spell pen, and it would only take 3.35 gems to get the equal amount of haste or crit. Another way to think about it would to compare how many secondary stats you should get at an equal ratio compared to spellpen. At 4.02 gems, the non spellpen versions would need 161 haste or crit in order to be equal.

Just for redundancy I'll say this yet another way.

Scenario A) If you took the spell pen cape / neck you'd have 201 spell pen + 160 secondary stats from gems (40*4)

Scenario B) If you took the haste cape / neck for instance, you'd have 134 haste + 200 spell pen (50*4) + some additional stats from socket bonuses.

In scenario A) however, you are not restricted to only haste or mastery, meaning you can spend those 160 secondary stats in crit or intellect, which is significantly more valuable in pvp.

---------- Post added 2011-01-30 at 09:01 AM ----------

This makes no sense at all. If you want to come in and troll, making fucking sense when you do it.

The irony is amusing.

[Swizzle]

I'm not entirely sure why you are saying gemming is better than gearing. I understand the concept in the quote and certainly agree with the stam vs hit comparison, but I'm at a loss for the crit vs hit comparison. Hit and crit have the same value in gems and on gear, so it wouldn't really matter what you use to get there as long as you're not wasting any hit over the cap. Not sure I see the advantage, is all, so feel free t elaborate on why gemming hit pulls ahead of gearing for it.

Additionally, what's the consensus with gemming vs gearing spell pen? I'm actually pretty out of it on the pvp gearing scene atm, as I'm not even sure what the ideal spell pen cap is. My current planw as to just get the spell pen neck and one solid gem, then a hybrid when I have the vicious version of the neck.

Unless they add them in next patch, there are currently no hybrid spell pen gems, just a pure 50 blue.

[Skarrd]

Unless they add them in next patch, there are currently no hybrid spell pen gems, just a pure 50 blue.

Well that's irritating. I've wanted a few hybrids on my priest that don't exist as well. wtf dudebros, implement more shit yo.


Also thanks for the rundown golieth, that's pretty much what I figured, but it didn't hurt to ask while we were talking about it!

[Deleted]

Crit is burst, but Int is sustained and survivability. That's why it's still valued more than other stats.

You are missing the point that sustained dmg = Burst for a frost mage. In PvE it's different of course, hence int being better than crit.
And the extra gemmed int is not gonna give you any survivabilty (extra absorp on shields arent relevant for being so minor).

Stop confuse people with your bias.

Int is valued more than other stat in PvE, which is a different story.

[Swizzle]

You are missing the point that sustained dmg = Burst for a frost mage. In PvE it's different of course, hence int being better than crit.
And the extra gemmed int is not gonna give you any survivabilty (extra absorp on shields arent relevant for being so minor).

Stop confuse people with your bias.

Int is valued more than other stat in PvE, which is a different story.

Actually, int still outweighs crit in PvP, just not by as much as it does in PvE. In PvE, it is vastly superior, in PvP only marginally, but enough so that you don't choose to gem potent gems in red sockets.

[Deleted]

Don't stare blindly on a mage's gear/gems just because he's high rated or gladiator or anything. I see a lot of highly ranked pvp players gemming worse than a malnourished haitian with aids, where swapping place of 2gems would provide additional int/resi or whatever. just stupid stuff that shouldn't be neglected.
in the long run, int will always be the stat boosting your damage the most and it also boosts your mana pool obv.
crit could occasionally be better in a bursty setup, but you can't really go wrong with gemming int. crit will get better next season, or the one after that, when you will be able to softcap

[rtjason]

Don't stare blindly on a mage's gear/gems just because he's high rated or gladiator or anything. I see a lot of highly ranked pvp players gemming worse than a malnourished haitian with aids, where swapping place of 2gems would provide additional int/resi or whatever. just stupid stuff that shouldn't be neglected.
in the long run, int will always be the stat boosting your damage the most and it also boosts your mana pool obv.
crit could occasionally be better in a bursty setup, but you can't really go wrong with gemming int. crit will get better next season, or the one after that, when you will be able to softcap

Yeah maybe on paper, but in reality vs a healer + 2 dps the higher burst from crit exceeds the int. Obv you still go int in red or potent in red and get the socket bonuses but yellow for smooth every time.

[Deleted]

Yeah maybe on paper, but in reality vs a healer + 2 dps the higher burst from crit exceeds the int. Obv you still go int in red or potent in red and get the socket bonuses but yellow for smooth every time.

As I said, the total damage with still be higher with int gems, not burst damage.

[rtjason]

As I said, the total damage with still be higher with int gems, not burst damage.

I know. I wasn't disagreeing with you as much as I was saying that burst is more important in more scenarios. Mana isn't an issue, all of our spells are shit without a crit etc.

[shortsnap]

It is my beautiful opinion that crit is much, much better then int. I dont know if these mages think int gives a whole lot of crit or what? But I dont have mana issues, and spellpower is just like mastery. It doesn't help all that much if it doesnt crit. Every 1% of crit = 3% to frozen targets. My crit is currently 20% and with my feral it's 25%. And since im sitting at 3555 res with my full pvp gear i use my darkmoon card (1600 int on proc, which is often) it goes to 22%. With the feral thats 27%. If glyphed for molten armor > cone of cold (and using molten armor) i'm at 32% crit. Add my tailor proc and power torrent proc (which together is 1080 int) im at 34% crit.

SO HAH! DISPROVED THAT 33.4% CRIT IS IMPOSSIBLE. SUCK IT.

Note: I gem Int/crit in red sockets, crit in yellow, and I have one hit gem in a blue socket, i dont go for the socket bonus in the belt and just gem double crit, also in my pants for blue I have int/hit.