10 Man tuned properly?

[Leolis]

So after seeing the raids so far and progressions on some guilds in 10 man vs 25 man I am really starting to think 10 man mode is not properly tuned as it is requiring raid stacking to some odd extreme, like three tanks and making class/specs miss out on encounters because they are not viable. Of course correct me if I am wrong about this please if i am mis informed in anyway. However if this is the case what encounters does blizzard have to work on to get this properly tuned so that it is not a matter of raid stacking but more of bring the player not the class.

[Deleted]

In 25-mans there's always more utility available. There will by nature be more MDs, more raid-wide CDs, more snares, slows and CCs available, less an impact bringing an extra tank and so on. This is why some encounters are notably more difficult on 10-man modes.

It's not a question about tuning, it's just that Blizzard can't make two fights identically difficult on both modes when the fights are identical. On 25-man Nefarian you should have a CD for every Crackle. On 10-man Nefarian you'll have to deal with some unmitigated. The only correct solution would be to lower the amount of Crackles.

But meh, it should all be doable without class stacking.

[refire]

It is very obvious not properly tuned. Look at Omnitron, Atramedes, Consel, Valiona, Magmaw, Conclave. Of the two heroics in 10 man that are being regularly killed (Chim and Halfus) one requires extreme class stacking. For example, Halfus heroic kill this week we had to use 3 tanks, 4 healers (2 being smite priests), and 3 dps. Of the dps, They had to either have, extremely overpowered aoe, (we used combustion mage and demo lock) or have preferably a ranged interrupt (we used an ele shaman). The fight wasn't hard with that makeup. When we attempted 2 tanking, or not using smite priests, the difficulty increased substantially. The lack of kills alone for the heroic modes I listed at the top clearly show an imbalance.

[sheaebay]

Reading this makes me remember how furious people were about 10 and 25 man sharing achievements and realm firsts. I do not undersand what happened. Did people just stop caring or Blizzard just kept shoving it down our throats "they are the same and will be balanced accordingly"

Clearly that isn't happening and its damn near impossible to. Lets take Al'Akir for example, MUCH easier on 10 man then 25. And Nefarian for instance, MUCH easier on 25 man then 10. The raids are different. There are advantages in a 10 man raid and advantages in 25 man, but they are much different.

Each person in a 10 man is worth 2.5 people in a 25 man. 1 person messing up is like having 2.5 people mess up in a 25 man raid, It makes a much larger impact. In order for a 10 man raid/guild to succeed they have to have a good 15 people with various classes at their disposal. As the poster above stated with Halfus, lots of people may miss their chance on kills because they can't do the super OP AOE or whatever the fight requires.

I find it hard to believe EVERY good player/guild is doin 25 mans. I understand thats where most of the competition is, but go look at World of logs and look at 10 heroic kills vs 25 heroic kills. There are WAY less 10 kills and hell 1/2 the bosses don't even have logs yet because people can't kill them.

All I wish blizzard to do is acknowledge they are different, and just split them up, Give achivements/realm firsts to both 25 mans and 10 mans, because they are different raids after all.

[Vreil]

Reading this makes me remember how furious people were about 10 and 25 man sharing achievements and realm firsts. I do not undersand what happened. Did people just stop caring or Blizzard just kept shoving it down our throats "they are the same and will be balanced accordingly"

Clearly that isn't happening and its damn near impossible to. Lets take Al'Akir for example, MUCH easier on 10 man then 25. And Nefarian for instance, MUCH easier on 25 man then 10. The raids are different. There are advantages in a 10 man raid and advantages in 25 man, but they are much different.

Each person in a 10 man is worth 2.5 people in a 25 man. 1 person messing up is like having 2.5 people mess up in a 25 man raid, It makes a much larger impact. In order for a 10 man raid/guild to succeed they have to have a good 15 people with various classes at their disposal. As the poster above stated with Halfus, lots of people may miss their chance on kills because they can't do the super OP AOE or whatever the fight requires.

I find it hard to believe EVERY good player/guild is doin 25 mans. I understand thats where most of the competition is, but go look at World of logs and look at 10 heroic kills vs 25 heroic kills. There are WAY less 10 kills and hell 1/2 the bosses don't even have logs yet because people can't kill them.

All I wish blizzard to do is acknowledge they are different, and just split them up, Give achivements/realm firsts to both 25 mans and 10 mans, because they are different raids after all.

I agree at what you say to some degree... but i dont want the ulduar 10/25 difference back... the shit gear from 10 man cause it was frankly way easier. I want them to make it hard but not in a stacking way... this expansion completely fucks up the "bring the player not the class" policy blizzard has pushed on us since ToTC and everyone recieved alot of new buffs for the raid

[Deleted]

The only thing "Bring the player, not the class"-ish thing they've done is buffs. Pretty much all buffs are identical now, MotW/Kings, Commanding shout/Bloodpact/PW:F, BL/TW/Hunter pet thing, etc. A lot of bosses get really tough when you are missing 1 class. Ex. Maloriak/Magmaw 10 man, we had no hunter, nor shaman for that boss last week and not having a slowing trap/earth binding made is substantially harder to control/kite adds. We were 2 mages who had to switch around frost novas, ring of frosts, CoC's and blastwaves, which both reduced our dmg output a little, but also made us do twice the work, just because we lacked a certain class.

I am not saying every single class should have everything, but it shouldn't be game breaking to not have 1, make some punishing mechanics that aren't AoE'ing down adds that need to be kited/slowed, but instead more of the "move out of this", "use this then and there" which every class can do, no matter what spec they are.

OT: Yes I do feel that 10 man is sometimes imba, but sometimes it is also easier, it is very hard to compare the two, which is also why I think it's a faulty conclusion that blizzard made to make 10 mans and 25 mans almost identical when it comes to boss mechanics. And yes, realm firsts should also exist for 10 mans. Only freaking logical.

[XtreO]

Ex. Maloriak/Magmaw 10 man, we had no hunter, nor shaman for that boss last week and not having a slowing trap/earth binding made is substantially harder to control/kite adds. We were 2 mages who had to switch around frost novas, ring of frosts, CoC's and blastwaves, which both reduced our dmg output a little, but also made us do twice the work, just because we lacked a certain class.

I presume you are talking about heroic mode?

[Uselessrouge]

10 player is a joke..

you remeber blizzard saying bring the player not the class?

well try 10 heroic mode... 1 class changed can make the encounter 10 times easyer

we have to use twinks to make the setup better but the truth is that it is just a joke that we have to do something like that to be able to kill herioc modes.. :/

[Deleted]

I agree. It's very hard to "bring the player, not the class", when melee dps are getting screwed on several encounters. Or when AoE or the ability to slow, trap etc. becomes so important, that you can't bring in that OP player you got.

While I like the idea of 10 man versions being harder, thus the gear that more rewarding, I stil think Blizz needs to re-think this whole raid idea tbh.

[Sabaka]

i just REALLY hope blizzard actually reads all of the complaints about this stuff and makes next tier 10 and 25man not share lockout, achievements, gear, and realm firsts... comon blizz... please...

[cFortyfive]

It is properly tuned and I still believe that most fights are "easier", but no 10 man guild expected they'd be required to have at least 15-18 members on there roster or just enough people with the "right" classes. No wrath tier promoted this type of ridiculous class stacking in that way a lot of they actually do which kinda sucks but well most people seem to like it anyways.

[Enailis]

Playing a feral druid, dont even get me started on melee especially on council in ten man, which I normally do if we aren't doing 25 mans... Now last week we had a dk warrior and me a feral druid, the damage in phase 3 was impossible, Not hard not woah thats alotta healing IMPOSSIBLE. How could blizz NOT see that making a mobs hit box so small even though he is so big it would screw melee.

[Deleted]

10man heroics will always remain more difficult in most cases simply due to the lack of flexibility that the smaller raid size offers. The whole 10/25 being the same in terms of mechanics etc is always going to create this problem. In 25mans you have the versitlity to slot in enough interupters for example or class setups that match alot of the boss design whereas in 10man you often have a smaller player pool to work from and as such a harder time of pairing a setup to what the encounter requires.

I still think that the move to make the two raid sizes comparable was/is the right way to go but they seem to have only gone as far as to take loot into account.

[Deleted]

Playing a feral druid, dont even get me started on melee especially on council in ten man, which I normally do if we aren't doing 25 mans... Now last week we had a dk warrior and me a feral druid, the damage in phase 3 was impossible, Not hard not woah thats alotta healing IMPOSSIBLE. How could blizz NOT see that making a mobs hit box so small even though he is so big it would screw melee.

Yet we killed them with 4 melee last night. I can see how it could present a big problem if you don't dps the bosses to their proper % and/or have low dps in general. Just to say it's definitely not IMPOSSIBLE.

[Soundeffects]

Reading this makes me remember how furious people were about 10 and 25 man sharing achievements and realm firsts. I do not undersand what happened. Did people just stop caring or Blizzard just kept shoving it down our throats "they are the same and will be balanced accordingly"

Clearly that isn't happening and its damn near impossible to. Lets take Al'Akir for example, MUCH easier on 10 man then 25. And Nefarian for instance, MUCH easier on 25 man then 10. The raids are different. There are advantages in a 10 man raid and advantages in 25 man, but they are much different.

Each person in a 10 man is worth 2.5 people in a 25 man. 1 person messing up is like having 2.5 people mess up in a 25 man raid, It makes a much larger impact. In order for a 10 man raid/guild to succeed they have to have a good 15 people with various classes at their disposal. As the poster above stated with Halfus, lots of people may miss their chance on kills because they can't do the super OP AOE or whatever the fight requires.

I find it hard to believe EVERY good player/guild is doin 25 mans. I understand thats where most of the competition is, but go look at World of logs and look at 10 heroic kills vs 25 heroic kills. There are WAY less 10 kills and hell 1/2 the bosses don't even have logs yet because people can't kill them.

All I wish blizzard to do is acknowledge they are different, and just split them up, Give achivements/realm firsts to both 25 mans and 10 mans, because they are different raids after all.

Thank you for making the most sense of any poster in these 10 v 25 man discussions.

[Brett Skullcrack]

All I wish blizzard to do is acknowledge they are different, and just split them up, Give achivements/realm firsts to both 25 mans and 10 mans, because they are different raids after all.

Better yet, make completely different raid instances for them. Just look at Karazhan if you want to see how awesome an instance can be when it's specifically designed for 10 people instead of a bastardized version of a 25 man raid.

[reflection]

In some points I agree. In some points I don't.

Maloriak:
You have to have two people being able to kick. There are a lot of classes with. So this should be no problem.

Kiting the adds: Easy Mode: Hunter. Then every tank (or maybe even every class) can kite the adds (tanking the big adds in P3 is a different story ) But you can do it with other Combos, too. You can have a shaman putting a totem. The first 3 adds can be tanked. 6 adds should also be possible. When you've got 9 adds shaman drops totem and kite. And even if you don't have a shaman you can use a (prot) warrior spamming piercing howl. I did it with my prot warr and a shaman and it worked perfectly. But I think I could manage it without any support with piercing howl.

The only thing that is pretty annoying is the extreme range of tanks you need. Some bosses require only 1 tank and others (Halfus HM) require 3. A lot of 10 man guilds will be struggeling with this. In my eyes this tier of raiding is ok. In my eyes it's ok if there are some minimal requirements to the setup, else the bosses would be pretty boring.

[blizzardcashshop]

10s have always been harder and each person matters more. blizz doesn't know how to tune 10m raids

and stop with the WIDDLE SPACE MAKE RAID HARDER

unless the size of the space changes, you go to a point, if bill is too close to you, bill is fucking up, bill needs to be replaced

nothing hard about it at all

[dakalro]

First 10 man normals are quite a bit easier than 25 man normals.

Some 10 man heroics are overtuned (Valiona f/e was overtuned until the recent nerfs but it is still the first really difficult encounter in heroic modes so even in 25 atm you need 25 people alive and not making mistakes for the entire 10 minutes if you want to make the enrage, combat rezzing is not a valid option outside of wipe tries; lack of a real hardcore 10 man guild scene doesn't help with finding proper strategies either, let's face it, most guilds rely on top 5 to get their movies out and fine tune out of those, 10 man guilds are too new and most probably still try to rely on the 25 man movies which is a wrong move), a couple undertuned, a couple probably even; rest of them are yet to be properly tried.

As for the matter of raid stacking, a guild has at least 150% of their size raid roster that are 100% or close in attendance, a few more that are good players but a bit more social and at least 1 valid very well geared alt for most of their core ending up in quite a few more options. So for a 10 man it should be 13-15 100% players, 2-4 lower attendance and alts of various other specs for most of the raiders not to mention every raider being able to play any of their specs as main. Anything other than that and you end up with issues when stacking is needed, and if stacking is needed in 25, it sure as hell is needed in 10.

[Poodles]

Not to mention adding mechanics that require tons of AoE but nerfing AoE into the ground... Magmaw comes to mind here, and demo lock AoE is getting a nerf. Theses same fights are cakewalks in 25 man because you have more people AoEing on adds that aren't much stronger. Encounters are definately not tuned well...