Why Nationalism?

[Torian101]

There have been a few "What does the world think of country X" threads on the offtopic forum lately. From reading them, and other threads about international politics, I've noticed that some people seem dissapointed that their country isn't nationalist enough.
The same trend seems to appear in the overall populations of quite a few countries when they are faced with the prospect of joining the EU. As for the Americans...well that has always seemed to be a bit more complicated, but you could call that patriotism I guess (or COULD you? I'm European so I might not have a good view on American nationalism, so feel free to correct me).

What I personally don't understand is: Why are people afraid of being considered political globalists or internationalists? Whats so bad about a world united under one banner? (I'm not saying I want the EU or the US to conquer the entire world).
I for one applaud the concept of the EU and would love to see all of Europe united under one banner, instead of all these small countries just being on friendly terms but constantly looking out for THEIR own interests over that of their neighbours. To take this further, if the US and whatever union or federation the European countries are gonna unite into, decide to one day merge to form some sort of "United states of the West" thing, I couldn't be happier. But this is a sentiment that seems to be considered bad nowadays...why? Whats so great about nationalism? Isn't it just a limiting point of view that looks only at your own interests and kinda says: "screw all you outsiders!"?

[Taros]

Because each nation has their own political policies and standard of living and other nations should respect their sovereignty.

[Deleted]

It's not that it's a bad thing for everyone to be united, it's just not possible, the EU is one of the most corrupt organisations there is, the reason countries are nervous is for purely economical reasons, which I won't pretend that I know anything about, but it's not as simple as 'i prefer to be the odd one out therefore I'm not joining your club'.

If the countries in the EU thought their country would do better from leaving, they'd be gone, it's not whether that opinion is right or wrong, its about who's opinio it is, and how much power they have.

And if there was some big 'united nations of the west' who is going to lead them? Would there be an impossibly large scale vote? What happens when Mr X decides his country would like to invade the 'united nations of the east' and then shit hits the fan? You can't force nations to agree, the middle east proves that.

[Chulda]

Because each nation has their own political policies and standard of living and other nations should respect their sovereignty.

This should only be taken into consideration if people aren't able to travel freely. Now we can do it, we can also live in most of countries we want to live in.
Differences between people from... different parts of the world will always be there, but we can change, we can adapt, and if we don't like the policy of the country we live in... we can leave and look for one that matches our expectations. That's freaking awesome.
Making nationalism (Or patriotism... whatever. When you look closer, it's basically the same thing) a higher value (lol) is dumb. It's limiting, and outdated. Seriously, it's XXI century, we should be able to get over things as silly as our place of birth...

[Lord Kristivas]

There won't be a United World Under One Banner any time soon because each country think their way of running things is right, and everyone else is wrong. Do Brits, with their free health care, want to live under America's standards? Do Americans, with all of their personal freedoms, want to live under Chinese laws? Who leads this coalition? Is it decided by popular vote? By force? By money/resources? Is it a council? How would you get any civilized country in the world to give up their identity to become a smaller part of a bigger whole? Sure, it might be good in the long term, but there's no instant gratification in it. What kind of government would it be? Socialist, Conservative, Communist, Liberal, Marxist, etc? More importantly, what religion would it's people identify with/have to accept?

I say "civilized" because I'm sure just about every Third World Country (the people, not dictator leaders who treat their people as slaves) would be more than willing to give their identities in exchange for the benefits of health care, housing, food, internet, etc.

You would need a major world event for anything to change. Nuclear war that wipes out a lot of the current governments, the discovery of extraterrestrial life, environmental collapse, and so forth. Until then, people and governments are going to care about themselves.

I, for one, would like to see my country (the U.S.) stay out of the affairs of the world for awhile. We seriously need to get out of the middle east. We need to stop shipping our jobs to India and China. We need to pull back and take care of ourselves before we try to tell the rest of the world how to live. If the Chinese want Democracy, the people need to take it. If Israel wants to keep taking over land in Palestine, they need to do it and deal with the reprisals without us getting involved. The world's going through a nasty recession, and countries that are involved in global matters need to solve their own problems first.

Edit: Also, please don't turn this into a flamewar.

[Kalyyn]

Its just a cultural thing. I don't know why I'm so nationalist. I was just raised that way, as were most of my peers.

[Torian101]

It's not that it's a bad thing for everyone to be united, it's just not possible, the EU is one of the most corrupt organisations there is, the reason countries are nervous is for purely economical reasons, which I won't pretend that I know anything about, but it's not as simple as 'i prefer to be the odd one out therefore I'm not joining your club'.

If the countries in the EU thought their country would do better from leaving, they'd be gone, it's not whether that opinion is right or wrong, its about who's opinio it is, and how much power they have.

And if there was some big 'united nations of the west' who is going to lead them? Would there be an impossibly large scale vote? What happens when Mr X decides his country would like to invade the 'united nations of the east' and then shit hits the fan? You can't force nations to agree, the middle east proves that.

The most sensible argument I've ever heard against joining the EU is because it tries to impose international standards upon countries where these standards are not the most effective. A very simple example is from a Norwegian father of 3 children who I discussed this topic with:
He basically stated that one of the reasons he didn't want Norway to join the EU is because of certain child safety standards that the EU expects its countries to meet. Some of these safety standards would work fine in places like Germany or Italy, but in a country like Norway, where the winters can produce a LOT of snow, the same standards can wreak havoc and cause the opposite of safety for the children. (I wish I could remember the actual example he mentioned, but I don't ><)

I would then counter by saying the US has it figured out pretty well, with every state being able to have their own way of doing things (that are more suited for their climate/region) while still governed by a larger...well...government.

Problem is, that once a group of people decides they are a nation, they suddenly begin to consider everything that isn't part of that to be somehow inferior.
Another example of this is a Dutch tv commercial produced by a power company called The Dutch Energy Company (De Nederlandse Energiemaatschappij). Yes I know, original name and all that. Anyway, they made a commercial saying that another company named Essent was bought out by some big German organisation. The commercial portrays this German organisation to be cold and distant, after which it is recommended to join the Dutch Energy Company for its "Low DUTCH rates". As if its exclusively a Dutch thing to want low rates...

I ofcourse understand this is just a way for companies to get people to choose their company, but they do it by appealing to the consumer's nationalism, which seems to be a very effective strategy nowadays.

Also, sovereignty and standards of living aside, a union of nations is less likely to engage in infighting then just a couple of countries living next to eachother. A classic counter argument against this is that uniting the whole world under one banner is an impossible dream because people always need a "us" to feel related to and a "them" to blame their troubles on, but that doesn't mean it has to be another nation. I've read somewhere that European countries that have not seen war for 30 years or so, become very caught up in whatever is their national sport (football foremostly) and instead proceed to vent their anger towards the opposing football team. Football, in this case, serves as a replacement for national tension towards another nation.

[Hraklea]

What I personally don't understand is: Why are people afraid of being considered political globalists or internationalists? Whats so bad about a world united under one banner? (I'm not saying I want the EU or the US to conquer the entire world).

I have no idea. Being proud of have been born in a specific place makes no sense.

People in my state celebrate every year a war against the government (in XIX century) to defend slavery (?!?!?!) just because "We fought the government! Gauchos have balls!". Not to mention that we lose that war! (thank god...)
- this is not exactly nationalism, they're proud of their state, not their country -

As someone said once: people suck.

[Kalyyn]

I have no idea. Being proud of have been born in a specific place makes no sense.

People in my state celebrate every year a war against the government (in XIX century) to defend slavery (?!?!?!) just because "We fought the government! Gauchos have balls!". Not to mention that we lose that war! (thank god...)
- this is not exactly nationalism, they're proud of their state, not their country -

As someone said once: people suck.

You're completely ignoring the South's rich history, though! It has nothing to do with defending slavery. Its about freedom from an unwanted government, bravery in battle, and some of the most brilliant generals that mankind has ever known! You really should research the civil war a bit. I think you'd be a lot more proud of [insert appropriate southern state here].

[Deleted]

The problem is there's a lot of 'what if' situations there, if you look at absolutes then yes, it's hard to argue against a single united nation, but you will never, ever get all nations to agree to it, humans by nature are competitive, we want to be better than our peers, not equal to them, countries want to be better than each other.

Religion is also a huge factor, it shouldn't be, but we can't pretend that it isn't, for thousands of years people have argued who's imaginary friend is the best, that isn't going to change any time soon.

[Deleted]

Becouse people are stupid and think only about themselves.

I believe that your dream will become real, sooner or later. Unfortunately i know what will lead to this. A total war that will devastate every country. There is just no other way to show ppl that we need to be united, one big country. Unfortunately, pain is the key :/

One day, we will all stand under one banner. We can not evolve unless we are one.

[partysvensk]

because the countries in the south is fkn the economy, doesnt know how to play the AH and r spamming for more gold 24/7 + that they doesn't want us to grind anymore wolfs. but imo we should still get united (for real) aslong as they keep all the national teams in football

[Zehroh]

It's a Jersey thing

[Zooton]

You're completely ignoring the South's rich history, though! It has nothing to do with defending slavery. Its about freedom from an unwanted government, bravery in battle, and some of the most brilliant generals that mankind has ever known! You really should research the civil war a bit. I think you'd be a lot more proud of [insert appropriate southern state here].

Maybe you should research the civil war before commenting on it. The southern states wanted to defect because they knew without slavery their economies would not be viable. So they used the GUISE of "states rights" as a platform to confuse people. You still have all these people like the "sons of the confederacy" and "daughters of confederacy" brainwashing people to this day.

You need to read a book called "Confederates in the Attic". It' s a very well written non-fiction book about the current situation in the south as it relates to the civil war. Please don't comment on something you don't know about.

Peter Griffin said it best "Isn't American Great!...except for the south"...dunno if that's the exact quote verbatim.....

[Torian101]

Its just a cultural thing. I don't know why I'm so nationalist. I was just raised that way, as were most of my peers.

I find this interesting. Here we are, on a forum with people from all over the world, and some are nationalist. Don't take this the wrong way or anything because I really don't mean to offend you with this, but why do you think your country/culture/whatever is better then (for example) mine?

EDIT: I just realised what I asked of you =P and its no small question. I'm not asking you to sum up a list of what makes your country so great, but rather why you think the values you were taught are so much better then mine? I believe this is at the core of nationalism (the idea that ones own values are in some way superior to the values of people not belonging to your group)

[Deleted]

To unite the world you'd have to get rid of the programming most nations are doing to their young.
Which means that some nation would have to conquer the entire damn planet, because otherwise it's highly unlikely to happen.

[Deleted]

You're completely ignoring the South's rich history, though! It has nothing to do with defending slavery. Its about freedom from an unwanted government, bravery in battle, and some of the most brilliant generals that mankind has ever known! You really should research the civil war a bit. I think you'd be a lot more proud of [insert appropriate southern state here].

A matter of perspective, I'm sure. To me, it happened like this: The US government finally came to their senses, and deemed slavery immoral. The South, largely economically dependent on slave labour, went: WHUT? NOOO! And started a war.
Anything else is really unimportant at this point, from where I am standing. Bloodlust is easily confused for bravery, and nastiness is easily confused for brilliance. And, of course, vice versa for both.
Me: I'm Dutch, and a libertarian socialist. I wás a nationalist, as in: Proud of the country I come from. But... Not any more. Ever since the government started privatizing public services like mail, health-care and public transport, this country has been in a downward spiral. Right now, fascism and self-serving politics, as well as political corruption have marked this country, for me, to be rotten. It's not the United States yét, but it's getting there.

[Kalyyn]

Maybe you should research the civil war before commenting on it. The southern states wanted to defect because they knew without slavery their economies would not be viable. So they used the GUISE of "states rights" as a platform to confuse people. You still have all these people like the "sons of the confederacy" and "daughters of confederacy" brainwashing people to this day.

You need to read a book called "Confederates in the Attic". It' s a very well written non-fiction book about the current situation in the south as it relates to the civil war. Please don't comment on something you don't know about.

Peter Griffin said it best "Isn't American Great!...except for the south"...dunno if that's the exact quote verbatim.....

Reread my post. Despite the fact that everything you said is more or less correct, you 100% missed my point.

[Shawne]

Nationalism is a limiting point of view that looks only at your own interests and kinda says: "screw all you outsiders!" in my opinion.
I'm all for reversing the order of letters in the EU: Go United Earth!...... DIRECTORATE.

[Cadi]

I'm all for reversing the order of letters in the EU: Go United Earth!

I'm happy for that so long as individual cultures and languages didn't get wiped out in the process. I don't mean protecting aspects of different countries' cultures that "allow" them to be dicks to other people for w/e reason, though. Human rights > culture imo.