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  1. #21
    I played all of BC all of WotLK and since cata launched. I have 4 toons my warlock being my first. I am having the most fun playing my warlock now out of all the time I have played and the guild I'm in isn't even a serious progression guild, just some friends. You started playing in wrath so that might be why you think we have so many problems. Try spamming one spell (shadowbolt) for every boss in every raid for an entire expansion with no dual spec and a bag FULL of shards. We are in a much better place now. I will agree there are some things that could be changed or corrected but all in all it's the best place we have ever been.

  2. #22
    IMHO this is an excellent post from Jessicka with a lots of valid concerns and points regarding design decisions and choices of our class... and I'm really surprised that some ppl stamps this with QQ or question if OP have even played warlock ...(did you even read the original post?)

    Quote Originally Posted by atrocious View Post
    they can nerf us, they can remove some of our spells but still we find our way to survive and make ppl QQ about warlocks being OP!
    hmm... it sounds a bit bombastic... no need to go further back in history than WoTLK Ulduar time when affliction raiding was nearly extinct. Only a handful of warlocks were still trying to do affliction raiding and mostly on PuGs before they were kicked of the raid... while GMs and RLs were requiring warlocks to switch to destro.
    With announcement and development of Cata it looked like Blizzard is going to make all 3 classes equally viable for raiding end game content, which more or less true right now (you can go raiding on all 3 specs, with slightly different DPS figures depending on the encounter) but will it be this way in 4.0.6? or even further in 4.1.x... or do we risk another Ulduar time with one class being completely abandoned for raiding?

    For what it worth I'd really like to thank Jessicka for taking effort of posting this and also to ask ppl to read it and think (use your gray-matter) before replying to the thread...
    Last edited by Norzaki; 2011-02-04 at 09:31 AM.

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Hermanni View Post
    You might be right about the talents that aren't really in sync with leveling, but then again that isn't really limited to one class and isn't much of a concern to myself :>
    This isn't exactly important at top level progression PvE anyway. And there are many other classes/specs that have useless talents while levelling.

  4. #24
    Fun talents were scrapped when blizzard realized that people where never gonna be satisfied with anything and decided to at least get the spec mechanics and balance better

  5. #25
    Usually not a fan of your work Jess, but I'm behind this post very much. I agree with everything you have said let's hope blizz listens, doubtful though.

  6. #26
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Nest View Post
    I recall Blizz saying that they were going to add more "fun" talents in talent trees.
    Could someone point me the "fun" talents on Warlock trees? D;
    You want fun talents? How would you like a Jack in the Box on a 1 min CD that Fears your demon.

    Warlocks have a good balance in talents. Destro is a little bad for lvling in the first tiers, but Demo is 100% vaiable even for PvE lvling.
    You can swap dots, you an be a demon, you can cast a spell that cant be resisted, you can drain life and have a pet.

    Warlocks have 3 really different talent trees (for a DPS class) and they have a lot of different abilities that makes the class interresting to play.
    And hte best thing: You arent UP or anything. You are good in everything you ares saposed to do.

    To the OP. The first problem is valid, but not that big. the second one is also not that big. And the third one gets partitialy fixed with the next patch.

    The first and second problem can be solved in one fix. Changes to talents.

    Blizz made a lot of mistakes in Cata and i think you can be happy to only have the little ones.

  7. #27
    As a lock that mainly plays affliction, my only real gripe is with pet choice and Demon Soul (I don't mind ISF at all, aside from on AlAkir, where spell travel time makes it a huge pain to keep up). Clearly there is some intended synergy between affliction and the felhunter, but due to glyphs and lack of talent points to spend on Dark Arts, the felhunter isn't an option and Demon Soul becomes an amazingly weak cooldown. Even with the patch, and the free talent points to take Dark Arts, this just pushes the imp into the lead.

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Micke View Post
    The warlock issues are so minor compared to the issues of many other classes, you don't know how good we have it.
    This! Look at Ret Pallies or just Shaman in general. Warlocks are great right now, I've never loved it more. Sure, there would be a couple of things I'd tweak, but we've not had it so good in such a long time (played mine since early Vanilla).

  9. #29
    Most of the smoothness and polish in spec design comes from all the little iterations and tweaks throughout the life of an xpac. Sure, stuff looks like it needs some ironing out after Cata, but I think most people are comparing t11 to t10, not t7. After WotLK dropped barely anyone played meta spec it had so many issues, and most demo 'locks went to FG/Ember or Imp/Conflag instead. Affli was dire for t8. Things were only brought into anything even close to as playable as they are right now for all 3 specs with t9.

    By the time of the interminable t10, everything felt smooth on the surface, but there were big problems underneath (balance difficulties, legacy shard mechanic). It seems to me that the big lurking core mechanics are fixed and we're in for a spell of iterating over the details until they get the same smoothness that comes with tweaking over time. Some good points being made, particularly about talent trees (and how we can't avoid problems with one spec by rolling variants like FG/ember), but compared to how things have been after previous xpacs, I'm surprised how ok all three specs are right now.

  10. #30
    Im absolutely enjoying the difficulty change between a new warlock and an experienced warlock. Back on TBC a destro warlock could be played by anyone in 5mins.
    Affliction Warlocks in cata with Demon Soul + Soul Fire management can really change the difference in ones DPS.
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  11. #31
    My grip atm its mostly PVP, We are either OP in a controled setting where we can place our portals at right place with the right pet and a healer, but we suck at world pvp.

    Iam relly getting tired of being killed cause I cant kill anything, a aff warlock decked in resilence dont relly die vs 1vs1 but its so hard and time consuming to fight other resilienced opponent by the time you are almost doing it someone else shows and kills you. Destro was supposed to be the burst spec but its so gimped atm its unbelivable, and dont come with the BS that you arent supposed to kill in globals DKs mages and warriors are doing it.

  12. #32
    Blademaster Grievance's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by atrocious View Post
    they can nerf us, they can remove some of our spells but still we find our way to survive and make ppl QQ about warlocks being OP!

    problem dev team?
    Moohahaha, locks will always prevail!

    @Jessicka:
    Both agree and disagree, you seem very invested in the playstyle of your warlock. Very, VERY invested in the playstyle of your warlock. I'm not trying to make a jab at you, but maybe, to make yourself happier with the game or gaming in general, try some other stuff out!

    I burnt out on my lock pretty quickly, got my rep grinds and got into raids, threw several bodies at Cho'gall and now I'm levelling up my alts in LOTRO. I can see why you'd be frustrated about this:

    I don't agree about utility however. I'm rooting oozes that get close to people on omnotron, I'm porting past the flames in Atramedes, I'm soulshattering and always last to die on Chimaeron, I'm porting to the ground if I get hit up on Magmaw (very rarely), I'm putting down CoT on Maloriak, while having one of the fastest spells to break freezes WHILE topping the damage meters easily via AE, I'm also topping meters easily against a very skilled fire mage on Halfus (though not on valiona), I'm setting my port to the designated Blackout spot, maxing my dps on Valiona, I'm tossing dots up on both Feludius and Ignacious making sure they both go down equally while actually upping my dps, and porting my ass back to my spot when Ig launches me across the room, I'm stunning/DC'ing/Fearing/AE Fearing worships in Cho'gall while taking down the first two waves on my own.

    I'm wondering what other dps roles can do this much in terms of those 'small things' in fights that add up. Maybe it all comes out the same, but when you think about it, it's just about does doing this lower your dps? I ranked on every fight I did last wednesday, while no one else ranked in the raid.

    I'm loving locks atm, I've played one in Classic/BC (Though not wrath) so maybe my lack of wrathlockery contributes to why I'm enjoying my lock so much for its utility atm.

    (I'm smashing the gong during air phase when needed, popping DC and porting my ass across the room as well) <- fergot

  13. #33
    The fact that to max dps in 4.0.6 all 3 specs have to use imp just shows how badly implemented/though off pet system is. But dont worry they will just nerf Mana Feed instead of correcting the pet crit scalling...

  14. #34
    The Unstoppable Force Jessicka's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grievance View Post
    @Jessicka:
    Both agree and disagree, you seem very invested in the playstyle of your warlock. Very, VERY invested in the playstyle of your warlock. I'm not trying to make a jab at you, but maybe, to make yourself happier with the game or gaming in general, try some other stuff out!
    I work two jobs, so don't have too much time to invest in my DK or Paladin; I got my DK to 85 pretty quickly but gearing is going to take a while, and even when geared the scope for actually raiding with her is going to be pretty limited. Even so, the talent tree there is pretty awkward; once you have the 31 points in Blood there really isn't anywhere else to go without picking up some very needless filler which is really quite dumb for sure, so I'm not saying Warlocks are the only class with issues, but DK problems are for the DK forum. Here I'm highlighting Warlock issues - and the problems I see are ones that weren't exactly unpredictable especially when things like "fixing" Decimation to level out our damage are directly contradicted by Mastery; or Backdraft causing scaling issues for Destruction in 3.3.x becoming excaserbated by Improved Soul Fire.

    ---------- Post added 2011-02-04 at 09:18 PM ----------

    Also, to add. Those of you who disagree, what do you actually disagree with? I'd like to hear some thoughts on that. All I see is "I disagree, our DPS is fine", when I never mentioned DPS...
    Last edited by Jessicka; 2011-02-04 at 09:19 PM.

  15. #35
    This is probably is better titled “My Issues with Catalcysm” more than anything Warlock specific. Most of your gripes are issues almost every class and many specs face, bit I do agree 100% on how disappointing pets are in this expansion.

    No Freedom/Choice in Talent Trees: a problem for every class, not just warlocks.

    Lackluster First Tier in Talent Trees: again, very common to many specs because core spells come with selecting a spec, such as Felguard, not in the first tier. The 1st/2nd tier can be grabbed by all 3 specs so they’ll either be utility or PvP for every class. If something in the 1st/2nd spec is too powerful, it will probably be moved higher. EG: Improved Soul Fire.

    Masteries: I’d say about half the specs in Cata have worthless or at least “reforge out of” masteries. Blizzard clearly didn’t finish this aspect of cata, they’re making a massive overhaul of both Ret & UH DK masteries and I wouldn’t be surprised to see this process continue every patch.

    New Spells: Fel Flame & Dark Intent & DS are all useful in just about every encounter…this is quite a bit better than other classes. A DK can ignore all three new cata spells and not miss a beat.

    However, I do agree they did a sloppy & shoddy job with lock pet design in cata. But at the same time I’m not surprised; they’ve never been very focused or coherent on what lock pets are. Locks went from being a pet class to a petless class to a felguard class and now we look to be an Imp class. The mechanics on lock pets are also decidedly lackluster compared to the wonderful pet talent trees that hunters have or cool mechanics such as Dark Transformation for UH DKs (which aren’t even a pet class).

  16. #36
    Been playing my lock since the very start of BC and in my opinion, the class hasn't been any better, or any more fun that it is now.

    - Vanilla:
    Don't even get me started on that. Veterans among us know the warlock position back then. I played mage back in the day
    - BC: When I started my lock;
    * The PvE warlock, ridiculously overpowered with a one-button-spam cookie-cutter spec. There was no way around it. Affliction, in PvE outside of Kara? You'd be laughed at and for valid reasons. Demonology? Some tried is with the t5 4 set bonus, but quickly discovered that sacrificing the succubus was the only good way to go after having made the final craftable epic. Warlocks were boring, extremely easy to play and vastly overpowered.
    * The PvP warlock, ridiculously overpowered as SL/SL. I remember duelling naked outside of IF and winning against merciless players. It was sad.
    - Wrath:
    * Finally other talent specs became viable. Many things changed for our class, one of them was that skill factored into topping dps. Many rerolled. Happy days!
    - Cata:
    * For me, literally the single best expansion of the game. Every single aspect of WoW is better now. But let's stick to the warlock class, shall we. Jessica insinuated warlocks have no utility talents and if they had, they wouldn't be available because we have 'so many' mandatory dps talents.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jessicka View Post
    We're completely talent starved, and at the same time bloated with mandatory DPS talents. If there were talents available for utility, we couldn't pick them up.
    This, is incorrect though. I, as a destro warlock, have much utility to bring to a raid. Our first chogal kill, was tanks to my shadowfury for example. I managed to stay alive, while others were dying, on many encounters, thanks to nether ward. My healers still thank me for the replenishment I bring. My fury warrior thanks me for not benching him on magmaw when our ranged aoe was lacking, because soulburn seed did the trick.

    Should I go on? I think you get the point. We have more than enough utility to bring to the table. You don't see it, if you chose to close your eyes for it.

    I think the OP is referring to ISF. Yes, he's right about that (or she, whatever), but as usual, he's making too big of a deal about it. Why whine about it again, when you know the issue has already been addressed? Why has ISF impeded you from taking utility talents, but it has had no effect of such sorts on me?

    I just don't comprehend your notion of class evolution Jessica. You're a very young player that hasn't experienced the actual state of our class in previous expansions, therefore you're just looking for a reason to complain. Every single thing about our class is better than it was before! EVERY SINGLE ASPECT. Take this from someone that has actually experienced the warlock class in previous expansions.

    Do you want to go back to being the summoner and debuffer?
    Do you want to go back to being overpowered by spamming your SB and /rolling for elements?
    Do you want to go back to farming reagents you need for spells?
    Do you want to go back to having 0 useful minions?

    We do competitive dps, we can be very good at pvp, we're challenging and fun to play, we've got a distinct feel and yet, it's still not good enough... Sure, there are still a few bugs in place. Using the imp rather than the fg as demo will give you a bit more dps according to a simcraft, for example. Well, CALL THE COASTGUARD! ALLERT THE PROPER AUTHORITIES! THE HORROR! Guys, we've just started a fresh expansion, give it some time to settle.

    Jess, I know you think I choose to pick on you on these forums and whatnot. I won't tell you it's not the case again. But don't you see that most threads you post, are complaints? Complaints you say are based on the thoughts of the 'warlock community' but they are actually only your selfish wishes? You, do not represent the warlock community.

    Quote Originally Posted by gherkin View Post
    Where are my utility talents? Aftermath? Aura of Foreboding? These aren't utility, they're cheesey knockoffs of utility that you might find in a drug store.
    This coming from you strikes me as odd. I pictured you as a more objective person. Guess I was wrong. It doesn't often happen, but it happens nevertheless
    Last edited by nocturnus; 2011-02-04 at 10:23 PM.
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  17. #37
    The Unstoppable Force Jessicka's Avatar
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    Please read the full post, and stop talking about DPS. DPS is nothing to do with the issues I've raised. Do I need to edit the post with a big bold "TL: DR I didn't fucking mention DPS so if you mention it I know damn well you've not read the fucking post"?

    I really don't think "It's better than it has been" is really an excuse. What's wrong with wanting to improve things?

    And on the issue of pets, they make a design aim known to us, manage to normalise pet damage for Hunters as a similar goal is set for them, yet somehow screw the same aim up for us?
    Last edited by Jessicka; 2011-02-04 at 11:49 PM.

  18. #38
    At first I was agreeing with your post, you make some good points concerning talents and some of the stuff on demons. The problem is that you're going too over the top on the criticism.

    For instance, you argue that the DL substitute for SB in an affliction spec is wrong, while at the same time arguing that warlock talent trees don't offer enough utility. Generally speaking you would want to use SB as your filler regardless of the DL sims because your timing and internet connection would have to be pretty dam good to get anywhere near what they say. However, in high damage periods of a fight I like being able to switch to DL and help my healer out a bit, it makes me feel like my life is a little bit more in my own hands. Your argument for FF and SP falls in a similar category, except that SP has it's own little "niche" that it's meant to fill, as does FF. SP is actually a bit overpowered as a threat generator and FF a bit underpowered as a mobile instant cast, but both have their situations of use and are excluded from a general rotation with good reason.

    Your arguments on the talents are a bit off as well. It's not that the base of the trees are any good, it's that some trees just have a tough time leveling. Go try and level a prot warrior and tell me how it goes up til you get Shield slam at lvl 50 or so, or a spriest before they get vampiric touch/embrace. It's not that these specs, or even trees, are bad (hell the prot warrior tree is a pretty good one all things considered). It's simply that some trees take some time to build up and become viable. You can't exactly put soul leech or molten core in t1 because we'd never need to life tap at lvl 85 if you did, also I'd be able to solo everything in the world running SL/SL/SL with a VW. Demonology manages to do without because of the Felguard and Destruction isn't really viable until Soul Leech because it has mana issues and needs much more downtime than the other two specs.

    The last thing I have to say is the Bliz never promised more utility with our talents. They said they would like to add more utility, but the actual promise was that they would give us talents that are "fun and interactive". Just about every talent we take has an affect on our rotation in one way or another, Everlasting Affliction pretty much removes Corruption from our rotation, Shadow's Embrace and ISB force affliction to at least occasionally use Shadow Bolt to keep the debuffs running, Molten Core changes Demo's filler completely, Demonic Revival(?) gives Demonology a little bit more self-utility. Sure some talents are "increase x spell's damage by y%" but you need those talents to make the tree stand out in it's specialty over other's. I'd hate it if a Destro locks Corruption were even 80% as powerful as my own, I'd feel like I'm not bringing enough to the table. Of course I would love more talents that allow me to play around, but the grass is always greener, ya know. Sometimes you've got to look at what other people have and be happy with what you've got.

    I won't say that our trees are perfect, but compared to many other classes we're doing alright. We have 3 viable dps trees, more than any other class in the game. This allows me to play my affliction tree that I've loved for years and still be viable, Dual Spec into Demo because I don't mind doing 100k dps on add packs while giving myself a little bit more survivability and burst dps, and someone else to go Destro and still pwn face on single target fights just as much as I do with affliction.
    Quote Originally Posted by Damntastic View Post
    wotlk champs wants to run through instances like fucking mario

  19. #39
    We're stuck once again with an unfinished game is what it comes down to. Blizzard rushing out their new game and this is the shit we have to deal with. I am extremely bored with wow and have cut down significantly on play time. Wtb a new MMO that blows this game the fuck out of the water. Blizzard needs to learn to complete a product before releasing it so the players aren't so goddamn frustrated.

  20. #40
    I Have been playing a warlock since vanilla and currently raid in a top 50 US top 100 World Guild and i have been in the same guild as well for years. The warlock specs are a hell of a lot more situational on some fights giving a major upper hand to crippling us if we are not in the correct spec or if not knowing the priorities correctly. Every boss has a better spec for each and every class its just learning to play all of them effectively and while having fun. There is no 1 OP spec for Warlocks at the moment (remember i said some boss fights are situational on class). A lot of these gripes and moans are literally people not putting enough effort in or enough effort to learn what it is other warlocks may be doing. I personally and the other lock in my guild get tons of WoL ranks and all were doing it maintaining a priority and LEARNING the fight ( what a concept).

    So of you will be like ahh your a moron, or explain and i am not going to spend my friday night argueing with trolls or someone who has only been playing the class a short period of time.

    PvE: Boring as f*&%, utilized only for massive AE/snare damage on certain fights and our soul swap ability that really increases damage a lot.
    PvP: Warlocks are a lot more fun then ever except destro, yes destro is terrible for pvp atm esp arenas, affliction will be interesting after next patch considering i out heal our healers in any pug by leaps and bounds. You could say we have a infinite amount of self healing but its literally just smart pvp'ing. Cover everything in corruption haunt on 2-3 targets w/ fel armor up and drain life, Ha i tank 8 people at a time in random bgs with 3600 resil and a SL and its glyphed.

    Everyone also has to remember just because blizzard made the class does not mean a RL will utilize all of them on certain fights, maybe 1 a demo lock on some but sometimes there's no locks in our raids to be able to stack certain dps or heals. All fights are different and all vary in how it suppose to be handled and adjusted with while raiding. It's def not like WotLK where you started the fight popped hero and burned everything while the heals and dps could just stand where ever and not die because it was all easy, esp after t9 when tiers made a lot of classes playability smoother. Remember its the start of an xpac nothing is going to be perfect, yes blizz rushs these things but its so you can keep playing and not get bored and play something else (even though im sure a lot of us do). The only thing i hate about locks in this xpac is how boring they are in raid and how there is nothing really cool left for us locks to really explore, it's all been done.

    Fel Flame - Useless 2 1/2 gcds to keep UA at full, better off recasting it w/ a haste buff
    DI - its alright but we cant really use all class's, yes we only use a few
    No more SS's - Finally WTF took so long
    DL as a filler - Only if your smoking crack cocaine do you use this, i use SB and it works great and better if you manage your lock correctly (you have to try to screw that up like literally try to fail). Remember a simcraft is a simulation not actual gameplay. People always say "sims says this and that ".............play the game and learn it and you'll realize. A sim is just a guideline for people who do not want to put in the effort to understand their class period, i know a lot of people put in the time and effort to find stat weights and what not but there are add ons that do that for you........just need to find them .
    Dark Arts - obviously some one was high
    ISF - It was fun but too many people just cannot play w/ priorities being their base and watching debuffs

    what makes one warlock better then the next is how he/she micro manages their spells/pets and thier positioning

    Locks are and always will be OP in a sense to other class's and it is not due to spells and "oh this hits hard spam spam spam". It is from people who know what they are doing and keeping on it. Once you learn priorities and what to do in certain situations locks are cake and balanced just fine. Go Get EXPERIENCE
    Last edited by Grâpedrank; 2011-02-05 at 01:31 AM.

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