To Do Tuesdays: 4.0.6 PVE

[tyden49]

why would you remove soul fire from your affliction bars its still a dps gain to soul burn and instant cast while moving if you dont need the shard for anything else ?

Not sure 100% about this but it may be an dps increase to start with a felhunter, then soulburn an imp and also soul burn another fel hunter if the demon soul comes off cd within a certain time left in the fight. (as in near the end) Gherkin or someone else maybe able to comment on this.

[Deleted]

I just killed Maloriak as Demonology. 15.08% Hit, and I have no gear to swap in. No misses. In a previous attempt (my unluckiest) I missed 6 ticks of Immolation Aura, 4 ticks of Hellfire, and 3 whole shadowflames were missed.

I believe, firmly, that people pay too much attention to when shit goes south rather than what happens all the time. Do I wish I was hit capped? Absolutely. Am I going to sacrifice int to do so? Nope. Maybe if I was destro, maybe, but right now it's not that important.

It fucking sucks casting Corruption twice however.

Guess hit rating isn't really that big of a deal on a fight where it hardly matters, ie; alot of aoe splash.
I'm wondering whether hit rating is like expertise at the end on WotLK. Like the cap for it on the character sheet is above what the actual cap is. May sound stupid, but I guess the first person who said the same about expertise cap being 24 (or was it 25...) at the end of WotLK must have been seen as stupid.

I dunno about you, but i've been haunted by sub 100k hp wipes on bosses, if I wasn't hit capped, thats the difference between a kill and a wipe, albeit an unlucky attempt from RNG misses etc.
I just see hit as another thing to perfect with gear, its nice when you land exactly on cap, and infuriating when you're 1 hit below the cap (Probably not as much of a big deal as I think.)
Guess its just the way I've been 'taught', And I doubt i'd change it, as its worked pretty well for me thus far.

[Norzaki]

Not sure 100% about this but it may be an dps increase to start with a felhunter, then soulburn an imp and also soul burn another fel hunter if the demon soul comes off cd within a certain time left in the fight. (as in near the end) Gherkin or someone else maybe able to comment on this.

Don't think it will be good idea to do that for affli due to following:
in order to get max effect of demon soul: felhunter you need to make sure that you start with CoE, 2xSB, 1xHaunt (to have 3xSE on target before demon soul), hotswap imp, apply all DoTs, drain life.
That means for the first 6-7 seconds you will be using puppy, who needs to spend around 1-2 seconds to run to target to start his DPS.
Currently there is a slight problem with soulburn/summon xxx macro as it is working only if you don't move at all when you press this macro, but if you move - it will stop before summon and you'll need to summon react which means wasting another 2xlatency + your react time for resummon (i.e. reduce of the effect of your demon soul: felhunter by that amount).

So, if you doing that at the start, you are loosing 1.5k+ of pet DPS (puppy running + lower DPS + interrupt on hotswap), but gaining around 2k DPS for around 15 seconds that remains of demon soul when drain life starts doing ticking damage.

If you compare it to starting with imp, and demon soul imp just before SB spamming - I think former will actually be a DPS loss.

The only time when it could really make sense is on DS execute phase, when imp's demon soul makes little sense.
This will give you around 3k DPS increase for around 17-20 seconds (depending on alignment of DS ticks with Corr/UA ticks), but loosing ~1.2k pet DPS for 45 seconds (and making sure you aren't moving when you hit your insta summon macro).
However that means that you need to make sure you have 2 shards left at the start of execute phase; that your demon soul is off cd when execute phase starts, and hotswap back to imp on the next soulburn CD without failing on it.

I think its simply too much added complexity and unnecessary reliance on RGN for really minor DPS increase in case if you manage to do it perfectly.

edit:
I didn't account for BL at execute phase above, but if we add BL here, means that you need to time pet hotswap just before BL (increase pet DPS), infernal summon just before BL, demon soul just after BL (plus all other DPS CDs/pot), DS, plus recast BoA before the end of any of your buffs (will be ticking with all extra bonuses, that will compensate for the loss of up to ~3 BoA ticks + GCD) ... and hotswap back to imp on next soulburn CD. This can actually give a significant DPS increase by the cost of lots of added complexity and will require good raid communication for BL timing.

[Deleted]

Thanks for your reply. As far as hit is concerned... Well my friend was whining and yelling at me that I'm wrong saying I'm better off without it. But I tested in on the dummy - ~16% hit and better robe vs hitcap and worse robe [346-359, nothing drastic]. My dps was definitely higher w/o hitcap.

With this ~16% on the Ascendant Council I had whole 3 misses from incinerate during the whole fight. Nothing more. I don't see where's the drama coming from Chimaeron makes me miss all the bloody time but if you have an addon like ForteXorcist or similar it's easy to immediately see that "resi" on new immolate and recast it. If it can be easily done when it happens as much as on Chima, it can be easily done if you miss 1-2 during entire fight somewhere else.

[Deleted]

chimaeron is easy to avoid missing any damage, when you get hit, just stop casting and start casting a soulfire, regardless of whether you need the buff or not, the cast time + distance to travel is just longer than the duration of the debuff. I also re apply the demonic circle

[Deleted]

If you have full hit cap but less intellect because of it, making 1000 spells hit for 2000 each = 2m dmg exactly
If you have less hit rating and more intellect, making 1000 spells hit for 2200 each, but missed 5% = 2178000

That is just a quick comparison, a dummies comparison if you like, to explain it easier.

[skitzin]

SCALE FACTORS:
Log out
Run yourself through 4.0.3-32 SimCraft (or higher) using PTR configuration, default options, and check all scale factors.
Update gear accordingly.
There shouldn't be much to change unless you're in Heroic Raids.

Might be a noobish question but how do I use/where do I get the PTR config to use for this?

[Geomatician]

In the latest version of simcraft change "live" to "ptr" in options.

[BillyMole]

Your suggestion that the glyphed imp be tested against the glyphed felguard is silly. Glyph of Felguard is never appropriate for demonology, as it is only 5% and only on Legion Strike. Glyph of Incinerate will always be a larger DPS increase if you are using the Felguard.

That said, on anything with only one target, or a flying target, the Imp will win. However, your list of bosses on which to use the Felguard is incomplete. Basically any boss where there are two targets to hit, the Felguard wins, and especially any boss with add spawns. Additionally, certain fights will favor the Felguard anyway if there are either burst dps phases followed by nothing, or periodic vulnerability debuffs.

Felguard used : ODS (if your tanks stack them, which they should), Magmaw (adds), Maloriak (adds), Halfus Wyrmbreaker (adds), Twilight Council (burst phases, 2x stacked if your tanks go for that, this one is arguable), Cho'Gall (slimes, and if you're not sending in the Felguard to storm during the slimes I'm going to slap you), Conclave of Wind (ONLY if you are on the nature platform)
Imp used : Atramedes, Chimaeron, Nefarian, Valiona/Theralion, Conclave of Wind (if NOT on the nature platform), Al'Akir

Fully half the fights you should use the Felguard on (7 of 12 if you're on the nature platform for Conclave). On top of all of that, assuming you're not terrible with the Felstorm cooldown, the difference between Imp and Felguard is small enough that most people will not notice any difference should they choose to use the Felguard for all fights (other than bosses with a flying phase, obviously). The difference is there, certainly, but you shouldn't be losing sleep over it, and you should never, ever use the imp on any fight with adds that need to die.

[Daemonika]

Hey Gherkin, here's a quick question, during boss fights does the imp ever go OOM? If so would a spec similar to this: spec 1/2 mana feed, take points out of bane using Drain Life filler work better?
(Can't post links yet sorry...)

[nocturnus]

Hey Gherkin, here's a quick question, during boss fights does the imp ever go OOM? If so would a spec similar to this: spec 1/2 mana feed, take points out of bane using Drain Life filler work better?
(Can't post links yet sorry...)

no........

[andromalia]

Your suggestion that the glyphed imp be tested against the glyphed felguard is silly. Glyph of Felguard is never appropriate for demonology, as it is only 5% and only on Legion Strike. Glyph of Incinerate will always be a larger DPS increase if you are using the Felguard.

That said, on anything with only one target, or a flying target, the Imp will win. However, your list of bosses on which to use the Felguard is incomplete. Basically any boss where there are two targets to hit, the Felguard wins, and especially any boss with add spawns. Additionally, certain fights will favor the Felguard anyway if there are either burst dps phases followed by nothing, or periodic vulnerability debuffs.

Felguard used : ODS (if your tanks stack them, which they should), Magmaw (adds), Maloriak (adds), Halfus Wyrmbreaker (adds), Twilight Council (burst phases, 2x stacked if your tanks go for that, this one is arguable), Cho'Gall (slimes, and if you're not sending in the Felguard to storm during the slimes I'm going to slap you), Conclave of Wind (ONLY if you are on the nature platform)
Imp used : Atramedes, Chimaeron, Nefarian, Valiona/Theralion, Conclave of Wind (if NOT on the nature platform), Al'Akir

Fully half the fights you should use the Felguard on (7 of 12 if you're on the nature platform for Conclave). On top of all of that, assuming you're not terrible with the Felstorm cooldown, the difference between Imp and Felguard is small enough that most people will not notice any difference should they choose to use the Felguard for all fights (other than bosses with a flying phase, obviously). The difference is there, certainly, but you shouldn't be losing sleep over it, and you should never, ever use the imp on any fight with adds that need to die.

Previous testing has shown that glyph of felguard is a better glyph on AOE heavy fights. I don't think it's silly to recommend retesting when it's been proven effective in the past.

[Glnger]

mana feed is for you. your silly little imp will be fine

[kosuko]

I know what the elitistjerks numbers say, but i'm thinking about actually applying the specs to boss fights.
Obviously demo tops in maloriak for the high AOE. But how much is the gain for affliction by soulswapping off targets (2nd dragon on halfus, other target on council, the 2nd dragon in the air etc, the other Xtron etc) Can soulswapping beat the 15% destro gains from bane of havoc?

Also, does anyone know if there are some "while moving numbers" for 4.0.6?

[Retauos]

I know a lot of us are using the Darkmoon Card with the Stump of Time. However, as an alchy the 361 intell from a trinket sounds very yummy. Was wondering if anyone had some input on reforging to make up for the 350 some odd hit from stump of time in order to make the new alchy trinket work. Even without the 1.9k sp proc. thank you to anyone who has some good thoughts

[Deleted]

I know a lot of us are using the Darkmoon Card with the Stump of Time. However, as an alchy the 361 intell from a trinket sounds very yummy. Was wondering if anyone had some input on reforging to make up for the 350 some odd hit from stump of time in order to make the new alchy trinket work. Even without the 1.9k sp proc. thank you to anyone who has some good thoughts

Well, there is some static haste on the alchemy trinket as well, so that could be reforged if needed.
Is every piece of your gear already reforged for hit?

[gherkin]

Guess hit rating isn't really that big of a deal on a fight where it hardly matters, ie; alot of aoe splash.
I'm wondering whether hit rating is like expertise at the end on WotLK. Like the cap for it on the character sheet is above what the actual cap is. May sound stupid, but I guess the first person who said the same about expertise cap being 24 (or was it 25...) at the end of WotLK must have been seen as stupid.

I dunno about you, but i've been haunted by sub 100k hp wipes on bosses, if I wasn't hit capped, thats the difference between a kill and a wipe, albeit an unlucky attempt from RNG misses etc.
I just see hit as another thing to perfect with gear, its nice when you land exactly on cap, and infuriating when you're 1 hit below the cap (Probably not as much of a big deal as I think.)
Guess its just the way I've been 'taught', And I doubt i'd change it, as its worked pretty well for me thus far.

In my opinion, a sub 100k wipe was a wipe long before we got there and we should have called it sooner. I.E. Nefarian early deaths = no rebirths in P3.

And I'll see if I can get some proof that the hit cap is lower. I doubt it, but it's worth experimenting.

---------- Post added 2011-02-08 at 08:51 AM ----------

Your suggestion that the glyphed imp be tested against the glyphed felguard is silly. Glyph of Felguard is never appropriate for demonology, as it is only 5% and only on Legion Strike. Glyph of Incinerate will always be a larger DPS increase if you are using the Felguard.

If you are using the Felguard, you are on an aoe fight and thus Legion Strike is the larger dps gain. If the fight is not aoe centric, then you should be using Imp. Incinerate is out the window entirely now.

---------- Post added 2011-02-08 at 08:52 AM ----------

Hey Gherkin, here's a quick question, during boss fights does the imp ever go OOM? If so would a spec similar to this: spec 1/2 mana feed, take points out of bane using Drain Life filler work better?
(Can't post links yet sorry...)

Mana Feed is about getting YOU mana, not the pet. Ignore the pet aspect of this talent.

[Certin]

i find it extremely disturbing that i have to use Imp as affliction.

[gherkin]

I know what the elitistjerks numbers say, but i'm thinking about actually applying the specs to boss fights.
Obviously demo tops in maloriak for the high AOE. But how much is the gain for affliction by soulswapping off targets (2nd dragon on halfus, other target on council, the 2nd dragon in the air etc, the other Xtron etc) Can soulswapping beat the 15% destro gains from bane of havoc?

Also, does anyone know if there are some "while moving numbers" for 4.0.6?

While moving numbers will be out today, Zal on EJ is very efficient.

Soul Swapping every 15s (never earlier or its a dps loss) will never beat Bane of Havoc. It might tie, but it will never exceed.

[chaley]

i find it extremely disturbing that i have to use Imp as affliction.

I feel like I did back in the vanilla days. "Where's your imp?"