Oh noes casuals can do heroics now!!!!! its horriblee... stfu

[Shrouded]

I barely even play anymore, and I still think the nerf was a bad idea - not because it allows more people to beat heroics, per se, but because it further fosters the expectation that you are entitled to win. What made the WotLK heroics so dull was that it was almost impossible to lose, effectively removing all semblance of challenge from them, and as an extention, all semblance of fun. I know that wiping for hours on end can be frustrating as well, but if there is no challenge, then why do the heroics even exist? Why aren't we just automatically given our valor points each day without having to go through the motions?

See, I think the underlying problem is the dungeon finder. I know it's immensely popular for good reason, but it has also bred a rather vile disposition among many players - win fast and on the first try, or don't bother. I think there's something fundamentally wrong about the game when people complain about long queue times for dungeons, and when they finally get to enter the dungeon they just want to leave as quickly as possible.

[Nielah]

Hehe, brilliant. Let the casuals have it, it's not that much of an improvement.

[Pieterman]

Casuals doesn't mean baddies. I've been casual for a few months and I was still good enough to not stand in fire. Giving casuals gear is fine as long as it's not to much. Giving baddies gear on the other hand is just plain stupid. Knowing a little something about the game is more important than being geared anyways.
15% damage/healing/health to baddies is just plain dumb.

[Dazzlefraz]

I've always had an issue with balancing things for the lowest common denominator.

This is where it all goes wrong my friend. At some point in time, in the very near future, that "lowest common denominator" isn't gonna mean jack squat anymore. Soon enough, everyone will be geared to the tits and no matter how "challenging" the content was originally, 1-4 other group members you randomly get assigned with will be able to clear the place while you're afk in a corner. They probably won't even notice you're gone.

The game isn't being balanced around the fact that people can't complete the dungeons in their current states, it's being balanced around the fact that people have moved on... most of the ppl heading there are probably alts. Sure there are some changes that even I feel were unwarranted... but hey... the world still turns. My job just got that much easier.

In response to your example, all I can say is this; WoW isn't like college... you don't fail... and you don't "drop out". You just keep queuing until some group you find ignores you and carries your ass through the content. That's not gonna change. Ever.

My original argument will still stand... A bad is a bad. A bad will ALWAYS be a bad, until such a time he/she decides they don't want to be bad anymore. No amount of difficulty in a Heroic Dungeon will change this fact. You can rage at your screen, you can type in caps, you can explain the fight 15 more times or you can just boot his ass... he's just gonna queue again and again till he gets where he's going. I know this... and because of this I don't care about said bad... I care about getting my alt at a respectable gear level with the least amount of pain and suffering involved.

[Tehfred]

This is where it all goes wrong my friend. At some point in time, in the very near future, that "lowest common denominator" isn't gonna mean jack squat anymore. Soon enough, everyone will be geared to the tits and no matter how "challenging" the content was originally, 1-4 other group members you randomly get assigned with will be able to clear the place while you're afk in a corner. They probably won't even notice you're gone.

I'm all for content that "scales" with gear--mechanics that kill you if you fail, no matter the gear level. For example: Yogg. Even now, if your fail at sanity mechanics, you're going to wipe.

The game isn't being balanced around the fact that people can't complete the dungeons in their current states, it's being balanced around the fact that people have moved on... most of the ppl heading there are probably alts. Sure there are some changes that even I feel were unwarranted... but hey... the world still turns. My job just got that much easier.

In response to your example, all I can say is this; WoW isn't like college... you don't fail... and you don't "drop out". You just keep queuing until some group you find ignores you and carries your ass through the content. That's not gonna change. Ever.

At the end of the day, the changes don't bother me. If I'm really turned off by it, I can play another game or find another hobby. I like to discuss things, however. I like to think I have a say in what I'm participating in, even if it is futile (hence why I still vote as an American ;P). I also realize that things are not going to change. However, that doesn't stop me from discussing alternatives. There is a huge difference between discussing and not coping. Telling people to shut the fuck up as the OP did, because my gaming philosophy is different, is not constructive.

[Dazzlefraz]

I agree with you completely. But Yogg is a Raid boss, the penultimate boss (final boss considering Algalon was optional) in a final Tier raid at the time of his release. Yes you can still wipe there today, but we're not talking raids. We're talking randomly queue-able "first tier" heroic dungeons. There's a big gap there. You might as well just make the argument Ozruk is a fail instance boss 'cause he's not as difficult as Sinestra.

People who raid generally concede to the fact that it will require time and effort, at least during times of progression. Similarly, the Heroics took some time and effort... during their time of progression. That progression is done with and people are moving on. As stated many times before, a bad who attacks the wrong target or who stands in the big glowy shite-pool on the ground will still pay the price for his fail. The only difference is now the group doesn't pay so much for one persons mishaps.

If I want content that is difficult enough for me to have to rely on others to do their jobs damn near flawlessly, otherwise the success of the group is in jeopardy... Then I'll jump on vent with the guild and run a raid. Conversely, if I just want to get my daily done/grab a quick batch of JP's for my newest alt.. I don't want to have to completely rely on 4 total strangers who may or may not be perfect at the class they play. A little leeway isn't horrible... it's not like the buff makes it a guaranteed one shot every time you join a queue.

[kaloryth]

I don't understand why people would be upset that bads can finish heroics so easily. It means that YOUR heroic pugged groups will go smoother as well because you can pick up slack when the baddie ends up dying. If it's anger over the fact that the baddie can get valor points, I can't really understand that when I see people walking around in full BOE epics they bought with gold...that they bought with money.

There are too many mechanics in the heroics that you won't be able to faceroll to victory while ignoring shit on the ground etc. And to be honest, it doesn't matter we start to outscale current heroics with gear. Blizzard is going to come out with new and harder ones.

[Askyl]

As a casual myself I loved the hard heroics. I play the game for fun, and not for epics and gear.. The heroicness in heroics were awesome.

[Cairm]

Wtb less loot pinata heroics, more hard stuff.

But then again, don't QQ here, go on the official forums and get your voice erased by the forum moderator.

[Deleted]

You seem to have a certain level of the emotion called anger inside of you, is that correct brother?

Anyway, I had the feeling Blizz was using the hc's as a way to learn ppl how to play, which I was very much in favor of. Making (most) hard encounters easier takes that away. And quicker dailies are good I suppose. Other then that I don't care.

[Tehfred]

I agree with you completely. But Yogg is a Raid boss, the penultimate boss (final boss considering Algalon was optional) in a final Tier raid at the time of his release. Yes you can still wipe there today, but we're not talking raids. We're talking randomly queue-able "first tier" heroic dungeons. There's a big gap there. You might as well just make the argument Ozruk is a fail instance boss 'cause he's not as difficult as Sinestra.

You are absolutely right. I just used Yogg as an example because it was the first thing that came to my head, as insomnia currently has its grip on me. But in speaking of Ozruk, I would want his mechanics to one-shot tanks that don't position correctly or players that don't move out of the shockwave fast enough regardless of item level. It's not a fail instance boss; it's actually a wonderful concept. It just needs to be consistent until it's truly obsolete (aka next expansion).

People who raid generally concede to the fact that it will require time and effort, at least during times of progression. Similarly, the Heroics took some time and effort... during their time of progression. That progression is done with and people are moving on. As stated many times before, a bad who attacks the wrong target or who stands in the big glowy shite-pool on the ground will still pay the price for his fail. The only difference is now the group doesn't pay so much for one persons mishaps.

It's a double-edge sword. This promotes babysitting rather than team play.

If I want content that is difficult enough for me to have to rely on others to do their jobs damn near flawlessly, otherwise the success of the group is in jeopardy... Then I'll jump on vent with the guild and run a raid. Conversely, if I just want to get my daily done/grab a quick batch of JP's for my newest alt.. I don't want to have to completely rely on 4 total strangers who may or may not be perfect at the class they play. A little leeway isn't horrible... it's not like the buff makes it a guaranteed one shot every time you join a queue.

I dunno about you, but I can barely get four other people to run an instance on a whim. I can't just call up my guild and say, "Hey let's raid!" whenever I feel like a challenge.

[Dazzlefraz]

Wtb less loot pinata heroics, more hard stuff.

While I suppose this much is true... it'd be hard to call it a "loot pinata" 2 months down the road when ppl are running around in 359's they bought with JP from regulars/lolfarmed gold.

Hard is Hard during progression... afterwards it's all faceroll... 'tis the nature of the game.

[Fuzzzie]

Closing this.