Disc + mastery = shield spam dominant again

[Deleted]

There are several reasons why this would be a very extreme solution, foremost would be the utter destruction of the spec in PvP.

It would also make disc extremely boring to play since the shield is the main thing making it different from holy (except for possibly atonement).

[prox]

i dont see a point why people scream nerf shields, whole tree is balanced around one ability, so if healing meters had not display absorbtion, this topic probably wouldn't exist if you alter shields in any way it will probably hurt disc priest in many ways you people can't even predict yet!i have a feeling majority of "crybabies" here don't even play priest since "im on top of metters now, but i don't wanna be" just isn't in human nature if u ask me. i personally don't want to see shields nerfed since i have a 2x healing spec (holy/disc) both suited for pve where i use one more appropriate for encounters. disc was underachiever before patch and now it shines, deal with it. PW:S is a core disc ability, we spent A LOT (15 or 17) of talent points to boost it to maximum effect, don't believe any other spec invest so many points into just 1 spell/ability and thus it must be good. either make disc tree not so dependant on shield or shut up, nerfing absorbtion or adding an extra CD on existing CD isn't a solution! make love, not troll wars!

[Deleted]

i dont see a point why people scream nerf shields, whole tree is balanced around one ability, so if healing meters had not display absorbtion, this topic probably wouldn't exist if you alter shields in any way it will probably hurt disc priest in many ways you people can't even predict yet!i have a feeling majority of "crybabies" here don't even play priest since "im on top of metters now, but i don't wanna be" just isn't in human nature if u ask me. i personally don't want to see shields nerfed since i have a 2x healing spec (holy/disc) both suited for pve where i use one more appropriate for encounters. disc was underachiever before patch and now it shines, deal with it. PW:S is a core disc ability, we spent A LOT (15 or 17) of talent points to boost it to maximum effect, don't believe any other spec invest so many points into just 1 spell/ability and thus it must be good. either make disc tree not so dependant on shield or shut up, nerfing absorbtion or adding an extra CD on existing CD isn't a solution! make love, not troll wars!

I'm really surprised. It seems there are some people that don't understand or just don't read what we are saying. We aren't saying we don't want to top healing metters. We're saying that it's stupid to have 15 healing spells to end up just spamming 1 button. And it's not fair that the "1 button spammer" tops healing metters. We play WoW because we want to have fun. I have fun when I must face a challenge, not when I spam 1 button, no matter if I top metters or not.

And people, imho, missunderstands the role of disc. It's to prevent and absorb damage with shields and to heal. Not ONLY to prevent and absorb damage with PW:S. We got Divine Aegis too. We can reach Inspiration, too. We can heal large ammounts of HP stacking Grace, etc. But all this tools are useless and unused because PW:S is OP.

[prox]

it's all personal preference, believe me i (10 man) heal with shaman/druid or 2x shaman and just spamming bubbles all day isn't getting me nowhere. i have to heal, a lot. im using all spells when situation demands it, i see shields just as extra ability i can use when things get bad. don't know exatcly how things look like in 25mans, but jumping into conclusions with new tier we can/will spamm shields even more is just that, a conclusion. shamans are not shining atm thus i have to give birth to several solutions as a main tank healer and help with raid healing when i can. therefor its personal preference how you play disc, it depends on encounter and raid healing setup. shields are just fine at least in 10 mans

[Apostolic]

There is a difference between 10 and 25 man raids though. In 10 mans, you have to do other things then just PW:S spam. PW:S only prevents the damage, anything over that has to be healed, thus requiring use of other spells. However, in 25 man, there are 2-3 other raid healers that can "heal" the raid while the Disc priest bubble spams. That is why it was so effective in WotLK, and why it is so effective here in 4.0.6 for 25 mans.

As I have called for, and other people, Blizzarrd needs to ad a DA spell ONLY, not tied to a heal, that will do mitigation, but not have to spam 1 ability for mitigation. The problem is in the math.

PW:S
5x1.5= 7.5 Sec
125k Mitigation in 7.5 sec

PoH + DA (rounded numbers pre nerf - more like 7k now)
5x10k + 5x2k = 50+10 =60k heal/mitigation in 2.5 sec
130k in 5 Sec. (2 stack DA)

However, shields will last 30 Sec, and DA is only 12.

For sustained AoE, PoH + DA wins, for 30 sec burst AoE, PW:S wins.

[Deleted]

Because it makes things easier to compare.

30k damage is about to hit Player who has 100k health.
Scenario 1: I'm a disc priest. I cast a 30k shield on player. Damage hits. Player's health is 100k.
Scenario 2: I'm a holy priest. Damage hits. Player's health is 70k. I cast two G Heals. Player's health is 100k.


In both scenarios, I'm doing SOMETHING to resolve the overall situation (Player is going to take 30k damage). I just go about it in two different ways. In scenario 1, I am in a sense "healing" the damage before it lands. In scenario 2, I am actually healing the damage after it lands.

Everyone knows that absorbs don't raise a player's literal health, but they do temporarily raise a player's effective health. Which is how, in a sense, absorbs are a form of "healing".

I understand the point itself but it still isn't placed in the same category just because we're literally down to the point where we have to go across the line to what actually reasonable. When people on my server say: OH YOU HEAL SO BAD !!! Then this means they don't take into account to my absorbs hence why I want to keep it in two different categories rather than just putting it in the same bucket. I don't say it's wrong to express it absorb being healing but for the vast majority it's put absorb ---- healing. And I find it rather hard to compare due to people saying OMG MY HPS IS SO HUGE due to shield spamming where the other reactive healing doesn't have a chance to be competitive ( if we're looking at meters, and HPS ) but aside from that I don't intentionally say it has to be completely different, note I also said in my opinion.

If you're going to debate a point, it would help if you read the counterarguments instead of reflexively reacting to what you appear to assume they are going to say. I did not say absorbs were healing, but that they were a part of a collective damage management strategy. I did not suggest that disc priests can operate via absorbs in a vacuum without either themselves casting restorative heals or other healer doing so. Absorbing damage is 100% as effective as restoring it (though it can be more effective if it generates sufficient EH to prevent what would otherwise would result in a death).

Yes it's a mitigative spell. No it doesn't manage 100% of the healing effort required, and I didn't even remotely suggest that it did -- but it absolutely belongs in the category of effective healing, if you consider effective healing to be steps that prevent someone from being reduced on damage. A player at 10k that sustains a 30k hit but is saved by a shield absorbing 25k is exactly as alive as if they had received a 25k heal just before the heal landed.

Did I direct the whole post to you? No. Then don't take ill from it since you yourself are doing the exact same thing you mentioned here at first. So don't go say I appear to assume what people are going to say. Clearly I'm not hoep you got that now.

As I've said I don't like to put it in the same terms since what itll cause is the issue including " Shielding tops the meters " or "Shield spamm" is king. I haven't stated that either of doing or not doing is the correct or incorrect way of doing things it's just that this debate probably favors the raiding environment more than other situations. Shield spamming sure is overwhelming and effective, but if we were to nerf it what would we do about the remaining left out terms that exist? Lvling, PvP, mana cost while dungeon lvl'ing at low lvl and many more.

I believe blizzard isn't looking at what current problems are in PvE terms only which people probably seem to stay stuck with but there are many left out sources that probably would get hurt as well.

But in terms of the thread there are several discussions and I'm not favoring one another just trying to get people realize that there is so much more to it than just what we're at and that debates should meet one another and not take ill from another one's post. I don't direct my comments to anyone except that I may answer the arguement.

I probably gone abit off than what I was going to from the start but oh well.

To get back on topic, bubble spamm isn't viable if we're minding the different terms of lvl'ing, low lvl dungeon or low lvl raiding ( yes there are probably twink guilds out there ). But for end game PvE content it certainly become an option with the current changes but I wouldn't really focus this perspective since the patch changes given aren't old enough to actually give a good judgement of the situation.

For the discussion Absorb is not Healing , or " It is too " like I said want in my own personal opinion categorize it differently to face each and another's perspective since there are so many others out there saying there are, yet there aren't. Then if we put it the way: You have bad HPS. Well then look at my absorbtion. Or: Your absorbs suck. Then look at my healing. This way you can add 'em togheter at that point instead of leaving it in a bunch making it harder to judge causing counterarguements saying something completely off leadin astray from the original point.

But that's me, you may differ.

[Bigslick]

Did I direct the whole post to you? No. Then don't take ill from it since you yourself are doing the exact same thing you mentioned here at first. So don't go say I appear to assume what people are going to say. Clearly I'm not hoep you got that now.

You used the assumption of exclusive utilization of shield spam as an exclusive solution as a counterpoint by saying:

Since how are you supposed to recover people's health if all you got is a shield to rely on?

If that wasn't directly responding to the quote you took from me, I'm a little confused why you quoted me in the first place as that was the closing point of your opening paragraph in response.

For the discussion Absorb is not Healing , or " It is too " like I said want in my own personal opinion categorize it differently to face each and another's perspective since there are so many others out there saying there are, yet there aren't. Then if we put it the way: You have bad HPS. Well then look at my absorbtion. Or: Your absorbs suck. Then look at my healing. This way you can add 'em togheter at that point instead of leaving it in a bunch making it harder to judge causing counterarguements saying something completely off leadin astray from the original point.

What tool are people using to monitor your HPS? In-game addons such as Recount include absorbs in summing up HPS and 'healing done', as does World of Logs. If another healer wants to actively break it down to its components and belittle your actual healing done compared to theirs, rais the point of their even lower level of absorbs relative to yours to bring the point home.

---------- Post added 2011-02-16 at 12:53 PM ----------

I heal regular 10-man content on my disc priest typically with a holy paladin and holy priest. Here are some of the factors that hinder my ability to be able to spam shields efficiently and effectively:

• No MTT
• No Innervate (aside from an extremely rare one from our feral tank)
• No Replenishment
• No 4pc T11 set bonus
• Lightweave instead of Darkglow (less net regen)
• Power Torrent instead of Heartsong (less net regen)
• 4 pieces of 'non-spirit' gear, 2 of which are reforged to spirit, 2 to other throughput stats
• Throughput reforged with a bias towards haste, which is lower net HPM than mastery
• Average ilvl 358 (no heroic raid gear). 2201 unbuffed spirit, 13.66 mastery (34%)

Last night I decided to personally test the sustainability and effectiveness of of what shield spamming my gear would allow, being in a 10-man guild with moderate gear (no heroic ) and just about as bad a setup as possible for mana regen (only available external supports were BoM and the holy priest's HoH). I did use spirit consumables along with JoAR and of course IW to make up for some of these shortcomings, and figured to go a little crazy with the shields on fights that held no challenge. Unfortunately my ISP (would you believe I use an archaic EVDO cellular aircard) decided to reinforce the fact that "America's Most Reliable Network" might be "Most" but certainly isn't "Completely" for a reason as it collapsed to an even slower snail's pace for date and then died after we'd completed just a couple of bosses, but we did get two before 'Can you hear me n----'



ODS: I cast PW:S x 107 over a 5:53 ODS fight, an average of 18 shields / minute, so just shy of every other GCD over the course of the encounter. Total shield absorb + glyph heal was 2407426, and across 107 casts that's an average of 22.5k effective healing per cast (not including any DA from glyph crits). Historically healing done was fairly balance across the three healers. In this instance, my shield and shield glyph heals (not including DA from glyph crits) did 37% more healing than all of our holy priest's efforts, and 44.5% more than those of our holy pally. These are both very skilled players - outhealing them by spamming a single button is a problem that needs to be addressed.

Magmaw: I cast PW:S x 85 over a 5:40 fight, an average of 15 shields / minute. Total shield absorb + glyph heal was 2177354, and across 85 casts that's an average of 25.6k effective healing per cast (not including any DA from glyph crits). Shield healing was less in comparison to the other healer's efforts this time, but still was competitive in and of its own.

Mana wasn't trivial to manage by any stretch but neither was it hopeless. With any regen boost, be it Innervate, MT, Replenishment, or finally seeing 4pc bonus, it would become notably easier - and again, I've not prioritized regen on my gear, nor mastery which would increase the HPM and HPS of those shields. The amount of team effort required to maintain damage control with me (semi-intelligently, I like to think) hammering away on shields was laughably lower than a 'well-balanced' approach. Simply put, I would be diminishing our chances of progression by ignoring the impact that proper shield spam can have.

Some are arguing that if you don't like it, don't do it - you don't need to... What you like has to be tempered by what is most effective and how much you want to progress. Most guilds would have taken a good deal longer to get their first LK kill if they'd said to their priest 'nah, just stay holy' or 'just keep as disc but don't worry about blanketing against infest if you don't like that style of play.'

But liking or not liking it is irrelevant as regards Blizzard's likelihood of addressing the feasability of shield spam; for them it's just a matter of whether they wish to maintain or recant their design philosophy as regards healing and their desire to avoid it continuing or reverting to what it became in late WotLK, the spamming of one's highest HPS spell.

---------- Post added 2011-02-16 at 01:12 PM ----------

latest blue:

The cost of Power Word: Shield is being increased by 33%. While we wanted Discipline priests to be able to utilize this spell more often and with better results, we also did not want it to be the main spell (and often the only spell) used while in groups. We don’t find this to be a particularly compelling playstyle and have found that it encourages players to avoid using other spells such as Penance. We believe that using a shield in a tight moment is totally appropriate, but we don’t want it to be incredibly efficient to do so with more frequency than that.

[PlatedPriest]

yay! blizz is going to break bubble spam!! (again)

[RichL]

Hope it doesnt fuck pvp

[Kupii]

brb, respecing holy

[Irielle]

This is warranted. Disc priests shouldn't be able to spam shields. (Although it was nice while it lasted).

[Kelesti]

(1) Did or did not the Blizzard developers explicitly state that relying nearly exclusively on one spell for healing was a mistake and not their intended design?
(2) Is or is not using PW:S for nearly every GCD relying nearly exclusively on one spell for healing?
(3) Therefore, is or is not using PW:S for nearly every GCD against the intended design explicitly stated by Blizzard developers?

Yes,
Yes,
Yes.

The cost of Power Word: Shield is being increased by 33%. While we wanted Discipline priests to be able to utilize this spell more often and with better results, we also did not want it to be the main spell (and often the only spell) used while in groups. We don’t find this to be a particularly compelling playstyle and have found that it encourages players to avoid using other spells such as Penance. We believe that using a shield in a tight moment is totally appropriate, but we don’t want it to be incredibly efficient to do so with more frequency than that.

We realize that by making Power Word: Shield slightly more expensive for Discipline priests to cast that it might cause Holy priests to avoid using it. To that end, we are adding mana savings into the Body and Soul talent. The tooltip will not reflect this change until a future patch, however. Ideally, Holy priests should not notice much of a change to the Power Word: Shield costs.

And that's all there is to it. Blizz doesn't like one button healing. Maybe this will last long enough until we're starting t13 content. Maybe not, and it'll need another knee-jerk hotfix. Who knows?

But the point of this thread is now over--Kel