The Art of Shadow

[Greendog]

Thanks for all your input guys its really helped me alot. In fact since i reforged all my mastery into haste my dps has gone up by 2k. So thanks again for the help.

[Yoonalol]

yeah idk what the mastery bonus for spriest is.. but i definately know that crit> mastery no matter what is it

[invictuz]

This is wrong. You must update dots beforhe they finish, in Cata. But once they are renewed, they don't start again. I mean, there's no extra tick.

If one of your dots is gonna tick at second 13 but it ends at second 12 and you renew this dot before it ends, it's gonna tick at second 13, no matter if you renew it 1, 3 or 5 seconds before it ends.

I'm thinking your interpetation of what he is saying is wrong....i dont see him mention anything about letting the DOT drop...and he is correct in saying there are haste plateaus to be aware of.

The duration between ticks is affected by haste (more haste = less time between ticks = more ticks during a given window of time = more dps over less haste) and at certain amounts (seen the 2100-2300 number floating around but haven’t looked into it) the gain versus other stats levels off until there is a large jump in points.
So researching (as he is saying) then achieving that number is ideal as it gives you the target or faster ticks (and helps hone your casting rotation/priorities) plus a point at which to turn your attention to other stats as their value has increased relative to hastes current level.

[Chrispythegull]

I'm thinking your interpetation of what he is saying is wrong....i dont see him mention anything about letting the DOT drop...and he is correct in saying there are haste plateaus to be aware of.

The duration between ticks is affected by haste (more haste = less time between ticks = more ticks during a given window of time = more dps over less haste) and at certain amounts (seen the 2100-2300 number floating around but haven’t looked into it) the gain versus other stats levels off until there is a large jump in points.
So researching (as he is saying) then achieving that number is ideal as it gives you the target or faster ticks (and helps hone your casting rotation/priorities) plus a point at which to turn your attention to other stats as their value has increased relative to hastes current level.

I think it is you who is not understanding the mechanics of how dots tick now. DOTS now tick continually and must be refreshed BEFORE they fall off. The reason why they must be refreshed before they fall off is because the mechanics of dots has changed from WOTLK in that they can now be 'refreshed'.

Previously you would have to refresh dots just after they fell off. The reason why is because the entire effect of haste was baked into each individual DOT. The tick rates were recalculated and then neatly packed into each haste-shortened DOT. In Cata this is not the case any longer. Now what happens is that the DOT is shortened until it reaches a 'haste plateau' at which point the DOT gains an extra tick and reverts back to the default DOT time. So ostensibly what could happen is that your haste might reduce an 18 second dot down to 16.5 seconds but you would still only get the same 9 ticks at slightly lessened intervals. You would have to recast the dot just before it fell off so that you would get your 'bonus' tick at the beginning of the next DOT, if this makes sense.

***THIS ILLUSTRATION IS NOT DRAWN TO SCALE, IT'S FOR ILLUSTRATION PURPOSES ONLY***

Normal 18 sec DOT -----> (CAST_____TICK_____TICK_____TICK_____TICK_____TICK_____TICK)
New 16.5 sec DOT -------> (CAST___TICK___TICK___TICK___TICK___TICK___TICK__)

Notice the appearance of empty space at the end of the second haste-influenced DOT. It is for THIS reason that you must recast the DOT before it expires. Doing so allows this to happen

Normal 18 sec DOT -----> (CAST_____TICK_____TICK_____TICK_____TICK_____TICK_____TICK)
DOT + (X)Haste -------> (CAST___TICK___TICK___TICK___TICK___TICK___TICK__)
DOT + (X+Y)Haste -------> (CAST_TICK___TICK___TICK___TICK___TICK___TICK__TICK__)

Now when you're talking about 'plateaus', these are theoretical numbers that would essentially allow you to not have to recast DOTS early, you could theoretically cast them as you used to in Wrath. This is because the DOT at certain points of haste gain the extra tick and revert back to the original length of 18 seconds. This is just likely never going to be the case so this is why the plateaus are theoretical.

In summary: Haste is our best scaling stat because it scales pretty linearly due to the way DOTS now work. The DOT shortens in length until it hits a 'plateau' where the DOT gains an extra tick from haste. At that point the DOT reverts back to it's original length but with an added tick in it. This cycle is repeated ad infinitum (or until the hard cap of haste which is far too high a number to be achieved)

Hope this helps.

[openair]

Now when you're talking about 'plateaus', these are theoretical numbers that would essentially allow you to not have to recast DOTS early, you could theoretically cast them as you used to in Wrath. This is because the DOT at certain points of haste gain the extra tick and revert back to the original length of 18 seconds. This is just likely never going to be the case so this is why the plateaus are theoretical.

Except the plateaus are not theoretical. According to the Sp guide sticky at the top of the priest forum, and elitist jerks, Sw: p, VT, and DP all get one extra tick and revert back to the original length with 8% haste from talents + 220 haste on gear.

[Chrispythegull]

Except the plateaus are not theoretical. According to the Sp guide sticky at the top of the priest forum, and elitist jerks, Sw: p, VT, and DP all get one extra tick and revert back to the original length with 8% haste from talents + 220 haste on gear.

You didn't read what I wrote correctly. You repeated exacty what I said. You're taking issue with my use of the word theoretical and I'm using it to refer to the fact that in practice one will never reach such a precise point. It is effectively theoretical because it's not practical to gear to hit that plateau precisely.

DPS gains by crossing these Haste Plateaus will be very small (almost negligible), but these numbers are provided as a reference for people who may be interested in what Haste they need for additional ticks of their DOTs. They in no way imply these are Haste caps or imply Haste levels between the plateaus are sub-optimal to your DPS. What they do say, is that if you find yourself in a position to push past one of these Haste levels, doing so should help your boost your DPS, albeit by a very small amount.

[Shawne]

www.howtopriest.com/

[Vaeoth]

What chrispy said. There are haste plateaus however if you refresh dots properly this does not correlate to dps plateaus. Therefore haste's value as a stat does not diminish until mf cast time is 1 sec which we aren't even close to. Also since the 25% to 15% shadow power nerf spirit/hit has jumped over crit and mastery. So stack haste the spirit then crit then mastery. If you don't want hit cap then don't reforge to spirit. I agree crit is slighty better than mastery but it's so minimal just have the two balanced and your dps won't suffer.

[openair]

You didn't read what I wrote correctly. You repeated exacty what I said. You're taking issue with my use of the word theoretical and I'm using it to refer to the fact that in practice one will never reach such a precise point. It is effectively theoretical because it's not practical to gear to hit that plateau precisely.

You dont have to reach a precise point. You can reforge less then 1% either direction very easily. And its not about the dps gains by crossing a plateau, but the possible relative dps gain provided by reforging small amounts of haste beyond a plateau to a different stat. Until you can get further upgrades and push haste beyond only 1-2% above a plateau.

Weither its actually a dps upgrade or not depends on your personal stats relative to each other. Which is why simulations like simcraft are useful.

[Avrantia]

Honestly though, like some people here already stated, the time of blind copypasting stat weights from forums which was what the majority did in WotLK is gone. Time to get the SimulationCraft downloaded and running... Trust me, it's much easier to figure out what you need based on what stats you have, than asking people who - based on their own experience and gear - are likely to give different answers which will make you even more confused.

[Deleted]

When in doubt: www.elitistjerks.com

[Deleted]

Could you link us the thread where we can get actual information at elitistjerks? All I see is from 4.0.3. or even older. Thanks

[Blackmorgrim]

yeah idk what the mastery bonus for spriest is.. but i definately know that crit> mastery no matter what is it

Crit, is not always better than mastery. Right now the two are almost even on a pure burn fight. However, you'll probably see a lot of people who sim themselves and find mastery coming out above crit. This is most likely because beforehand, they were actively avoiding mastery, and stacking haste and crit. But since crit and mastery are almost even now, if you have say 100 points to divy up between crit and mastery, the best scenario would actually be to split them almost evenly. Therefore, if you have 17% crit, and barely any mastery, adding mastery will actually sim with a dps increase as you bring the two closer in to balance.

[Neliah]

As far as I'm aware mastery is the most usless stat we can have.

I honestly find this whole subject confusing, specially since they list a BiS trinket pre-heroic raids (On Shadowpriest.com), that has a 1900 something mastery proc.. -_-

[Abandon]

As far as I'm aware mastery is the most usless stat we can have. I think the fact that you're neck and neck with someone who is favoring crit instead is because you're probably more geared or better at your dot timing, etc.

I think if you start ditching mastery for crit you'll start pulling ahead of the other spriest.

Mastery provides more of a DPS increase point per point than Crit, and just less than Haste.

[bubblinya]

there are break points in haste were your dps does actually increase by gaining another tick of a dot... VT is really the only dot that this matter on because DP lasts so long so the affect is minor and swp is auto refreshed.....

heres why...

yes we do renew vt before it falls off
as we gain haste our vt ticks become quicker hence lowering the duration of the dot overall until we get enough haste to actually add another tick therefore reseting it to 15sec duration... this being a haste breakpoint
now this actually makes haste scale equally as we add more at any level of haste in terms of the damage the dot does.. but the reason actually passing the break point is an overall damage increase is because it allows us to cast the dot less... you waste more time keeping the dot up if you have to refresh it every 13.5 then if you have to refresh it every 15seconds.... this stays true regardless of if you clip it slightly as your supposed to or if you reapply it the moment it falls off

breaking points with haste that add ticks open up more of your casting times for MF's

ive read these forums for years and this post actually made me create an account LOL

---------- Post added 2011-02-16 at 10:59 AM ----------

I honestly find this whole subject confusing, specially since they list a BiS trinket pre-heroic raids (On Shadowpriest.com), that has a 1900 something mastery proc.. -_-

bis is DMC volcano
the trinket you talk of also hast 321int and int which is far superior to any other stat also with emp shadows and perfect rng you can actually prolong the proc of the trink by 10-12 seconds
not to mention the next best the heart now takes 10seconds to stack back upto full sp there for making you use the haste on use effect(which consumes the sp) without the full sp bonus

[Chrispythegull]

I honestly find this whole subject confusing, specially since they list a BiS trinket pre-heroic raids (On Shadowpriest.com), that has a 1900 something mastery proc.. -_-

The introduction of reforging also makes this whole thing confusing. DMC:Volcano being best in slot is based on the assumption that you will reforge that mastery into haste. Since haste is almost always going to be your best stat, it's pseudo-power value is going to go sky high. Plus the proc is pretty nifty.

---------- Post added 2011-02-16 at 12:29 PM ----------

Mastery provides more of a DPS increase point per point than Crit, and just less than Haste.

...given a best in slot set up.

Everyone's mileage will vary given their own individual set ups.

[Cyberspace]

The introduction of reforging also makes this whole thing confusing. DMC:Volcano being best in slot is based on the assumption that you will reforge that mastery into haste. Since haste is almost always going to be your best stat, it's pseudo-power value is going to go sky high. Plus the proc is pretty nifty.

---------- Post added 2011-02-16 at 12:29 PM ----------

...given a best in slot set up.

Everyone's mileage will vary given their own individual set ups.

That trinket is BiS because it provides a 1600 int proc every ~45 seconds. The mastery > haste reforging has almost nothing to do with it.

[Chrispythegull]

That trinket is BiS because it provides a 1600 int proc every ~45 seconds. The mastery > haste reforging has almost nothing to do with it.

Do you people argue everything? Nothing I said disagrees with what you said. She made the comment that this whole thing was confusing, and I was just mentioning that another monkey wrench in the whole thing is reforging.

[Deleted]

In my guild we have 2 SPriests that go for different things. I favor haste above all other secondary stats, other SP takes mastery. From raid logs and recount i can honestly say that haste is our best secondary stat by far. I did 19,2k dps on Cho'Gall last fight (no Dark Intent) in our 10 man raid. The other SP does around 14k in his raid.
Raid buffed i have just over 28% haste and im like 100 haste short from another dot tick. I believe the target haste is 2476 or smthing similar to that. Hope it helps.