Discipline jumping ship to Holy - Dawn of the new Bubble Bots

[gotpriest]

You have little to no heroic experience.

So you hardly have any room to sit here and say guilds don't "feasably" chain raid cooldowns. Bubbles/sacs/tranqs/aura mastery ect.


Because they in fact, do.

My guild runs 2 disc priests at LEAST depending on the fight. Sometimes 3. They do not enforce bubble spamming, and don't care if you do or not. We still beat encounters just fine without it.

Magmaw/Omnitron/Maloriak/Chimearon/Atremedes/Valiona+Theralion....

Those are all examples of fights where guilds chain raid cooldowns to mitigate as much damage as possible.



Don't sit here and make things up Spiritus. You have seen how many heroic bosses? TWO gimik heroic bosses. You know NOTHING about heroic content.

Translation: "Hey guys. My d@#$ is thissssssssssssssss big."

[ZippyDoodle]

Translation: "Hey guys. My d@#$ is thissssssssssssssss big."

No, this guy is on these forums pretending he knows everything about heroic content and he hasen't even SEEN 90% of the heroic content currently in game...

Yes I am going to call people out on it.

[Bigslick]

• Body and Soul no longer reduces the mana cost of Power Word: Shield (the hotfix made on February 16 to provide this additional benefit has been reverted).
• Rapture now returns 2/5/7% of maximum mana when Power Word: Shield is consumed, up from 2/4/6%.

Latest blue...

[gotpriest]

Whoever didn't see this coming is blind.

Well. Now people can stop their bickering and go back to healing like normal.

[Deleted]

This is not a good argument.
First you can never design an encounter like that since gear scaling would break it the same way that say PW:S will.
If you want an encounter like this you do something like Chimaeron.

Second PW:S has a 30s duration so your shields will vanish before you are done shielding the raid. And also you would need a lot of haste to do it in the 35 seconds you mention.

There are also tons of other thing that breaks your example. What if you have PW:B up?
Or some other damage reduction.

In short, stop posting nonsense. Preventing damage instead of restoring health is a playstyle that many of us like.
If you don't like it then fine, but using an effective healing rotation is no more challenging than shield heavy disc style.

He is not posting nosense and I believe plenty of people don't tend to even look at each other. The whole bubble spamm occured with 4.0.6 and I really find many discussions going around whether it is correct or incorrect. Truthfully speaking it is one way of mitigating damage,though I don't believe it was blizzards intended reason to make it overly overpowered. Topping the charters is frankly speaking lame statement to use and that it's the intended reason to bubble spamm.

Why is it effective? Because of the buff it were given. Why do we use it then? Because it's effective and favors the most end game encounters the most. Why did Blizzard try to hotfix it? It was overly overly leagues ahead of the other healers, whether it be on charter or not.

This way I think people don't try to look back or forward but simply being stuck in what the current issue is. Pre- WotLK for example Disc was put was a PvP spec, Holy PvE, in WotLK disc got the implemented " Bubble Bot " due to the effectiveness of it, though this was later into the expansion.
Didn't see much bubble spamm in ulduar, but that could be just me.


As for the quoted post, Preventing Damage instead of restoring health is a playstyle? It sure is my friend, but just as they tweak healing done preventing damage shouldn't be overpowered which it in current state is. Paladins got nerfed, LoD was OP and the Tower of Radiance change lowered it even more, but are they in a good place now? Yes I think so and I also think that disc priests will end up in a good place too. But all this bullshitting each other's playstyle as you mention, just keeps getting on my nerves.

Why did resto shamans get a buff with 15% to Purification? - In order to keep up with the other healers.

Why did holy paladins get slight tweak nerfs? - To not exceed the healing done way above the healers.

Why are disc priests power word: shield being tweaked around at now? - Simple, to not being excessively overpowered.

ZippyDoodle , you're saying that PW:s will most likely be your #1 Spell, right? Then why are the logs, recount, the charters saying something else? The other spells ARE far behind because of the favored way to only spamm that spell. Which IS NOT intended to since Blizzard wants to nerf it. Disc isn't complicated since you'll maximize the HPS and utility of the ( nerfed PW:s ) than using your other spells like resto shamans, resto druids, and holy paladins do.

We use PW:s...... what else do we use ? ( I'm talking about shield botting ) Sure, we do use CoH here, or PoH there but our vast majority of heals come from PW:s ( Still talking 'bout shield botting ).

What are Paladins doing? They use Beacon of light, Holy shock and Crusader strike to maintain Holy Power which they'll need to consider on who to use and when, also timing up so they are prepared for massive AoE along with Divine Favor + Holy Radiance.

What are the Shamans doing? Since they're reliant on the their Tidal Wave along with aiming their Chains Heals whether it needs a quick HW there or a GHW over there.

It might not look like a different, but our fellow healers use a bigger journal of spells than the shield spammers do to maintain their HPS. How to a shield spammer maintain HPS? Well by only using GCD's / Shields, PoM, Instant heals - and no this is not intended to ( Remember TBC peeps? CoH spamm all over that was given a CD because it was too OP?

So I clearly see Spiritus point of view and I can't get people that don't even give a chance to read his post properly. I agree that holy isn't meant to shield spamm, we have never been until now and I'm sure Blizzard missed that. Otherwise they wouldn't want to nerf it.

Spiritus is making great posts and I hate people that says he has no idea what he's saying, I don't like to hear that from someone who mention he haven't been holy/disc 100% since the start of WoW, and who had to pull spells out of his spell book during an encounter. *pointing at TiduZ I believe that you don't understand the factors Spiritus are pointing out since you're mostly stuck on some other plan rather than meeting him half way and turn the other cheek around.

Also to add, since TiduZ you disappoint me in saying that given the practice for holy you could also give higher parses? May I ask if this included the shield spamm along with thrown in CoH here and there? Doesn't this simply just copy the disc style pre-nerf other than what Holy is now?

I don't care about the parses, but I care about the mechanics itself. "This Spec" is just another Bubble spamm spec due to Soul Warding and given the increased Raw healing Holy gives it's a certain fact you'll provide higher parses with given practice. It doesn't change the fact 40%-50% = PW:s and I see no difference between that and the nerf which literally isn't a nerf anymore.

> No offense bro this is a question and a tiny summarization of my own personal opinion in this matter. <

_______________________________________________

1. Shield spamm is NOT intended to in the excessive way it is ( Disc pre-nerf & Holy in current state )

2. Damage Mitigation is intended but being leagues AHEAD of other healers is not intended.

3. Using one single spell to maximize a priest's healing done is NOT intended to.

4. Cataclysm was said to be challenging on the mana and healing than what it was in Wrath of the Lich King. With the changes to the increased mana cost and use of spells in my own opinion cataclysm is supposed to use your whole character. With challenging I -believe- that they wanted each class to use their spells wisely.

5. From the topic to tell, shield spammers use their spell wisely but not in the intended way blizzard wanted to hence the reason they are nerfing and tweaking it at the moment. And overall we're not on at the same level of the other healers just yet because of this.

- We top the charters with 1 spell. ( Don't deny the fact since it gives you the most HPS given since it's an absorb and absorbs damage before damage hits, so heal won't get the HPS since there's nothing to heal )

- The others get on the meters with timing in spells. ( Holy paladins Radiance, Shamans Healing Rain, Druids Wild Growth+Efflorcence)

So there really is a difference and this is not what blizzard wants, priests to go bubble spamm in order to maintain their healing. Our Power Word:shields are meant to mitigate damage and not being excessively used as a main spell.
^
^
The above stated is what I believe. Since Blizzard wouldn't nerf it otherwise.


Edit: The blue posts have been updated, I suggest we all go read it. <<<<

Edit 2: ZippyDoodle is making a great point. Raid encounters are the mechanics Blizzard give and whether it's designed or not is up to the players to comprehend. I don't believe that Magmaw is intended to be spread out all the time. To make use of the Raid Cooldowns it's a given fact that a Barrier is meant to be placed ABOVE - multiple players - since it's a Barrier, makes sense right?.

So here you're actually comprehending it in an odd way, Spiritus.

Also a raid setup is not the other one's alike due to the favor of cooldowns, dps and such, it's very important to consider or there are easily misunderstandings. ZippyDoodle runs with x2-3 disc priests because of the Raid Cooldowns, which favors Hard Modes other than Normal Modes since it's huge damage going out and the use of a class specc and abilities is determined on when to use, how to use and where.

******





I am sorry for the wall of text and I hope some care to read it. I've expressed my opinion here and I'm glad to share my thoughts. But in all honesty I plea to everyone to remain at a debate level without personal accusations. This is discussion and personal offending is not the right place, my suggestions is take it in PM instead. And try to keep this discussion going instead of short ill comments amongst each other.

[PlatedPriest]

well blues have solved that

time for a lock on this thread dont you guys think!!

[ZippyDoodle]

He is not posting nosense and I believe plenty of people don't tend to even look at each other. The whole bubble spamm occured with 4.0.6 and I really find many discussions going around whether it is correct or incorrect. Truthfully speaking it is one way of mitigating damage,though I don't believe it was blizzards intended reason to make it overly overpowered. Topping the charters is frankly speaking lame statement to use and that it's the intended reason to bubble spamm.

Why is it effective? Because of the buff it were given. Why do we use it then? Because it's effective and favors the most end game encounters the most. Why did Blizzard try to hotfix it? It was overly overly leagues ahead of the other healers, whether it be on charter or not.

This way I think people don't try to look back or forward but simply being stuck in what the current issue is. Pre- WotLK for example Disc was put was a PvP spec, Holy PvE, in WotLK disc got the implemented " Bubble Bot " due to the effectiveness of it, though this was later into the expansion.
Didn't see much bubble spamm in ulduar, but that could be just me.


As for the quoted post, Preventing Damage instead of restoring health is a playstyle? It sure is my friend, but just as they tweak healing done preventing damage shouldn't be overpowered which it in current state is. Paladins got nerfed, LoD was OP and the Tower of Radiance change lowered it even more, but are they in a good place now? Yes I think so and I also think that disc priests will end up in a good place too. But all this bullshitting each other's playstyle as you mention, just keeps getting on my nerves.

Why did resto shamans get a buff with 15% to Purification? - In order to keep up with the other healers.

Why did holy paladins get slight tweak nerfs? - To not exceed the healing done way above the healers.

Why are disc priests power word: shield being tweaked around at now? - Simple, to not being excessively overpowered.

ZippyDoodle , you're saying that PW:s will most likely be your #1 Spell, right? Then why are the logs, recount, the charters saying something else? The other spells ARE far behind because of the favored way to only spamm that spell. Which IS NOT intended to since Blizzard wants to nerf it. Disc isn't complicated since you'll maximize the HPS and utility of the ( nerfed PW:s ) than using your other spells like resto shamans, resto druids, and holy paladins do.

We use PW:s...... what else do we use ? ( I'm talking about shield botting ) Sure, we do use CoH here, or PoH there but our vast majority of heals come from PW:s ( Still talking 'bout shield botting ).

What are Paladins doing? They use Beacon of light, Holy shock and Crusader strike to maintain Holy Power which they'll need to consider on who to use and when, also timing up so they are prepared for massive AoE along with Divine Favor + Holy Radiance.

What are the Shamans doing? Since they're reliant on the their Tidal Wave along with aiming their Chains Heals whether it needs a quick HW there or a GHW over there.

It might not look like a different, but our fellow healers use a bigger journal of spells than the shield spammers do to maintain their HPS. How to a shield spammer maintain HPS? Well by only using GCD's / Shields, PoM, Instant heals - and no this is not intended to ( Remember TBC peeps? CoH spamm all over that was given a CD because it was too OP?

So I clearly see Spiritus point of view and I can't get people that don't even give a chance to read his post properly. I agree that holy isn't meant to shield spamm, we have never been until now and I'm sure Blizzard missed that. Otherwise they wouldn't want to nerf it.

Spiritus is making great posts and I hate people that says he has no idea what he's saying, I don't like to hear that from someone who mention he haven't been holy/disc 100% since the start of WoW, and who had to pull spells out of his spell book during an encounter. *pointing at TiduZ I believe that you don't understand the factors Spiritus are pointing out since you're mostly stuck on some other plan rather than meeting him half way and turn the other cheek around.

Also to add, since TiduZ you disappoint me in saying that given the practice for holy you could also give higher parses? May I ask if this included the shield spamm along with thrown in CoH here and there? Doesn't this simply just copy the disc style pre-nerf other than what Holy is now?

I don't care about the parses, but I care about the mechanics itself. "This Spec" is just another Bubble spamm spec due to Soul Warding and given the increased Raw healing Holy gives it's a certain fact you'll provide higher parses with given practice. It doesn't change the fact 40%-50% = PW:s and I see no difference between that and the nerf which literally isn't a nerf anymore.

> No offense bro this is a question and a tiny summarization of my own personal opinion in this matter. <

_______________________________________________

1. Shield spamm is NOT intended to in the excessive way it is ( Disc pre-nerf & Holy in current state )

2. Damage Mitigation is intended but being leagues AHEAD of other healers is not intended.

3. Using one single spell to maximize a priest's healing done is NOT intended to.

4. Cataclysm was said to be challenging on the mana and healing than what it was in Wrath of the Lich King. With the changes to the increased mana cost and use of spells in my own opinion cataclysm is supposed to use your whole character. With challenging I -believe- that they wanted each class to use their spells wisely.

5. From the topic to tell, shield spammers use their spell wisely but not in the intended way blizzard wanted to hence the reason they are nerfing and tweaking it at the moment. And overall we're not on at the same level of the other healers just yet because of this.

- We top the charters with 1 spell. ( Don't deny the fact since it gives you the most HPS given since it's an absorb and absorbs damage before damage hits, so heal won't get the HPS since there's nothing to heal )

- The others get on the meters with timing in spells. ( Holy paladins Radiance, Shamans Healing Rain, Druids Wild Growth+Efflorcence)

So there really is a difference and this is not what blizzard wants, priests to go bubble spamm in order to maintain their healing. Our Power Word:shields are meant to mitigate damage and not being excessively used as a main spell.
^
^
The above stated is what I believe. Since Blizzard wouldn't nerf it otherwise.


Edit: The blue posts have been updated, I suggest we all go read it. <<<<

Edit 2: ZippyDoodle is making a great point. Raid encounters are the mechanics Blizzard give and whether it's designed or not is up to the players to comprehend. I don't believe that Magmaw is intended to be spread out all the time. To make use of the Raid Cooldowns it's a given fact that a Barrier is meant to be placed ABOVE - multiple players - since it's a Barrier, makes sense right?.

So here you're actually comprehending it in an odd way, Spiritus.

Also a raid setup is not the other one's alike due to the favor of cooldowns, dps and such, it's very important to consider or there are easily misunderstandings. ZippyDoodle runs with x2-3 disc priests because of the Raid Cooldowns, which favors Hard Modes other than Normal Modes since it's huge damage going out and the use of a class specc and abilities is determined on when to use, how to use and where.

******





I am sorry for the wall of text and I hope some care to read it. I've expressed my opinion here and I'm glad to share my thoughts. But in all honesty I plea to everyone to remain at a debate level without personal accusations. This is discussion and personal offending is not the right place, my suggestions is take it in PM instead. And try to keep this discussion going instead of short ill comments amongst each other.

Clearly didn't read what I said.


PW:S Will be your #1 spell on MOST ENCOUNTERS.

With your other spells not being far behind.


AKA. Playing with balanced usage of spells. Please read before posting.

[Shjak]

Never mind my post - I said the same as one above, in the middle of those huge posts

[[-Spiritus-]]

So you hardly have any room to sit here and say guilds don't "feasably" chain raid cooldowns. Bubbles/sacs/tranqs/aura mastery ect.

Of course guilds chain CDs. I never said they they did not. They come from multiple different players playing different specs and classes. This fits the stated design of a group of players being more powerful combined than they are by themselves.

When a single player can mitigate ~20% of every raid wide hit, in addition to other CDs, there is a significant issue of design. A game designer will tune damage relative to a specific iLvL worth of health and available mitigation that the raid should have when engaging an encounter when it is relevant. Do you not think damage would be higher in T11 if all non-tanks had ~20% more health? Do you not think that fights would be significantly easier if the damage was the same, but all of a sudden the STA on all non-tank gear increased by 20%?

I wrestled with whether I should respond to your suggestion that I am not capable to speak on this subject due to my guild being 2/13 heroic and yours being 7/13. It should speak for itself how this is a fallacy, but instead I'd thought I'd bring up the following statistics:

Con Brio started official 25man raiding on the 4th of January. We decided to take the holidays off as a break since many of our members were traveling out of town to visit family. I believe your guild had a significant headstart on progression, but I could be wrong so I apologize if I am misrepresenting. Nothing wrong with that.

Con Brio's 25player raid runs three nights a week for three hours a night [we recently have been doing a 10man alt runs on Mondays for a change of pace for our core and to give a chance for our "friends" members to experience some raiding]. If I'm not mistaken, your guild runs approx. 5times a week for about 3-4hours variable. A significantly longer time investment, coupled with an earlier start, which, I apologize if I'm misrepresenting this as well, since I only have logs to go on. Again, absolutely nothing wrong with that.

Con Brio took nine total attempts to kill heroic Halfus. We took 17 total attempts to kill heroic Chimaeron. Again, I apologize if I'm misrepresenting, but I believe your guild required more attempts to kill both.

If I am unqualified to speak on this subject due to my 5 less heroic kills, then so be it. I might be mistaken, but I'm fairly certain that an understanding of game mechanics and ability to apply them to the game translates into better efficiency. I'll let the reader decide which guild is more efficient.

---------- Post added 2011-02-18 at 11:11 PM ----------

Yeah, I agree. Lock the thread after Zippy gets a chance to give a rebuttal.

[Deleted]

Clearly didn't read what I said.


PW:S Will be your #1 spell on MOST ENCOUNTERS.

With your other spells not being far behind.


AKA. Playing with balanced usage of spells. Please read before posting.

Not most encounters since it's the #1 spell on EVERY encounter, but we'll see with the patch changes. You also might want to read before posting since you obviously don't need to read before posting....

*Period ---> Lock this naow ! *

[Frizzmon]

I still say make shields only useable on people in your own group. In a 10 man group you could shield half the raid but with the reduced mana recovery available it can't be sustained. In the 25man setting it would not break encounters to pre shield 4 key members. Using the Spiritus example you could pre shield 4 vital people to assure they will be protected by the 70k mechanic but the Disc Priest would then return to healing the rest of the raid the "normal" way.

all i can say is that suggestion is f'ed up

[Whicker]

Looks like they fixed it lol. I cant believe holy priest even thought of this, the changes was bound to come

[ZippyDoodle]

Of course guilds chain CDs. I never said they they did not. They come from multiple different players playing different specs and classes. This fits the stated design of a group of players being more powerful combined than they are by themselves.

When a single player can mitigate ~20% of every raid wide hit, in addition to other CDs, there is a significant issue of design. A game designer will tune damage relative to a specific iLvL worth of health and available mitigation that the raid should have when engaging an encounter when it is relevant. Do you not think damage would be higher in T11 if all non-tanks had ~20% more health? Do you not think that fights would be significantly easier if the damage was the same, but all of a sudden the STA on all non-tank gear increased by 20%?

I wrestled with whether I should respond to your suggestion that I am not capable to speak on this subject due to my guild being 2/13 heroic and yours being 7/13. It should speak for itself how this is a fallacy, but instead I'd thought I'd bring up the following statistics:

Con Brio started official 25man raiding on the 4th of January. We decided to take the holidays off as a break since many of our members were traveling out of town to visit family. I believe your guild had a significant headstart on progression, but I could be wrong so I apologize if I am misrepresenting. Nothing wrong with that.

Con Brio's 25player raid runs three nights a week for three hours a night [we recently have been doing a 10man alt runs on Mondays for a change of pace for our core and to give a chance for our "friends" members to experience some raiding]. If I'm not mistaken, your guild runs approx. 5times a week for about 3-4hours variable. A significantly longer time investment, coupled with an earlier start, which, I apologize if I'm misrepresenting this as well, since I only have logs to go on. Again, absolutely nothing wrong with that.

Con Brio took nine total attempts to kill heroic Halfus. We took 17 total attempts to kill heroic Chimaeron. Again, I apologize if I'm misrepresenting, but I believe your guild required more attempts to kill both.

If I am unqualified to speak on this subject due to my 5 less heroic kills, then so be it. I might be mistaken, but I'm fairly certain that an understanding of game mechanics and ability to apply them to the game translates into better efficiency. I'll let the reader decide which guild is more efficient.

---------- Post added 2011-02-18 at 11:11 PM ----------

Yeah, I agree. Lock the thread after Zippy gets a chance to give a rebuttal.

Spiritus, honestly..

My statement had nothing to do with who progresses faster. Another reason why you are so disrespected on these forums. You make things up.

I was stating, that because you have not even SEEN the majority of the encounters you have no room/right to say what tactics guilds should/shouldn't be using. Or for that matter stating you know strategies guilds use for those fights.

Don't try to back out of the fact you said "raid CD's on every raid wide ability aren't feasible" because you did in fact say it.

It IS feasable, and you have no idea what you are talking about. Please stop making threads stating your UN knowledgeable opinion please.

[[-Spiritus-]]

Don't try to back out of the fact you said "raid CD's on every raid wide ability aren't feasible" because you did in fact say it.

I do not recall ever posting this. Could you please quote my posts directly if you are going to accuse me of lying?

I was stating, that because you have not even SEEN the majority of the encounters you have no room/right to say what tactics guilds should/shouldn't be using. Or for that matter stating you know strategies guilds use for those fights.

Hundreds of thousands of WoW players disagreed with you when they read my pre-release guides for ICC on TankSpot, when the only people to have seen the fights were those that attempted them on the PTR.

[ZippyDoodle]

Of course guilds chain CDs. I never said they they did not. They come from multiple different players playing different specs and classes. This fits the stated design of a group of players being more powerful combined than they are by themselves..

When you earlier states chaining raid cooldowns on every raid wide aoe is not feasible.

[Kelesti]

When you earlier states chaining raid cooldowns on every raid wide aoe is not feasible.

Actually, he said that you "can't barrier every single hit, and on some fights you can't even group up properly for them".

It is usually not feasible to have PW:B up for all raidwide hits, nor are all encounters designed to allow the raid to be grouped.

Reading Comprehension must be hard. Might help if you read the posts, instead of attacking the user

[ZippyDoodle]

Actually, he said that you "can't barrier every single hit, and on some fights you can't even group up properly for them".

Reading Comprehension must be hard. Might help if you read the posts, instead of attacking the user

Both of which is false.

Granted you have enough disc, so far every fight allows you to group up at the point when AOE damage comes out.

[Sunshine]

Closing this, since it's no longer relevant thanks to a hotfix, and it seems to have turned into somewhat of a flame war.

I am tired of mods on the forums attacking people and breaking the rules of the forums that they say they "enforce".

If you have problems with a mod, you're welcome to PM me or Boubouille with specific examples.