Combat vs Assasination

[Deleted]

I know, check stateofdps.com...
But i have this question bugging me, which spec is better in dps now?
Combat or Assasination?

[Tierael]

I played Combat all through Vanilla, BC, and WotLK. After switching to Assassination in Cataclysm, beside the DPS balance, it IS a lot more fluid, in the exact timing of opening with Garrote, laying down a quick rupture, a quick SnD, and a quick Envenom. Maintain Rupture and Envenom finishers at good times (Rupture after LAST dot has ticked, Envenom at 4-5 pts at 90 energy, or when Envenom buff runs out, or when energy caps). Throw in your cooldowns, and it all comes together so fluidly. Always stay behind your enemy (dump Expertise) The fun part is when you get to 36%, Vanish, Garrote, Vendetta, Potion of Tol'vir, Backstab (glorius <35%) to 5 pts (always). Fuuun DPS, really high-end Envenom crits. At 357.5 equipped item level, I pull 14k on Dummy Poisons only, no food, potion, or flask. (can't backstab dummies)

Bottom line. Combat was fun, but was clunky and is out of date I keep Twilight Fang in my bags, hoping they fix Combat soon

[Deleted]

...(Rupture after LAST dot has ticked

As long as you clip rupture when it has less than 2 seconds remaining, you don't loose any rupture ticks. Sometimes it won't let you clip rupture though (more powerful spell is active error message).

[tru]

time an time again play what you want and what you have fun with

[jtstormrage]

I played Mutilate in WOTLK and also in Cata until 4.0.6.

In Cata, until 4.0.6 there was no doubt that Mutilate damage was higher.

Now I am playing Combat with similar gear to my Mutilate set and the damage is about the same.

The thing is that there are not many fights where it is a pure tank and spank, and the main difference between the two specs is ramp-up time. When there is target changing or movement, Combat is higher - no doubt. I am thinking of Omnitron, Atramedes, Conclave.

However, when there is not much movement or target switching (e.g. 2 Dragons, Chogall (>20%), Maloriak, Chimaeron) Mutilate is a bit higher.

On Halfus, Blade Flurry makes Combat much stronger until the drakes are dead but even after 50% - Furious Roar interrupts Mutilate's rotation too much and Combat is better in that phase too. Again, because the ramp-up time is less.

Mutilate is probably better on Alakir because you can't use KS, and also on Ascendant Council because you burn phase is <35% usually with BL up and so Mut Rogues do well.

On fights where you are interrupting (Halfus, Nefarian) I find Combat better because you have better energy regen and you are less likely to be stuck without the energy for a Kick (not a major issue for Mut rogues but possible).

Overall the damage is now very similar, but I am really enjoying playing Combat - it is more fun imo However, I completely agree with Tru (above) - play what you find most fun - If you raid one night as Mut, you will do more damage on some fights than others - and vice versa if you raid another night as Combat - it is nice that they are more or less balanced and so people have the option to change.

[Deleted]

Thanks folks

[Deleted]

Combat is highest dps if your gear is good (Heroic)

[Auchinfail]

Mutilate is probably better on Alakir because you can't use KS.

Mutilate is better for that fight, but you can use KS on Al'akir, just not in p3. P1 and 2 it drops you on the platform, p3 it sends you to the bottom, and your doom. (You can also use KS to get out of a tornado)

[Deleted]

combat is broken atm, lots of energy cappign going on.

[Synexlol]

More or less equal, with each spec excelling in different encounter types. Generally they are right about on par.

[Sesshou]

The thing is that there are not many fights where it is a pure tank and spank, and the main difference between the two specs is ramp-up time. When there is target changing or movement, Combat is higher - no doubt. I am thinking of Omnitron, Atramedes, Conclave.

However, when there is not much movement or target switching (e.g. 2 Dragons, Chogall (>20%), Maloriak, Chimaeron) Mutilate is a bit higher.

No actually combat loses more dps for switching or movement in general. You waste BG uptime while moving even if you can redirect it to the new target (often not possible), and you will waste more energy running than assassination will because you regen a lot more. Both specs have to restack DP, granted this is a far bigger deal for assassination but it also stacks far far faster for assassination.

On Halfus, Blade Flurry makes Combat much stronger until the drakes are dead but even after 50% - Furious Roar interrupts Mutilate's rotation too much and Combat is better in that phase too. Again, because the ramp-up time is less.

If you aren't bf'ing then no combat won't be doing more damage in the last 50% because assassination will get the execute damage with the debuff on halfus which destroys what combat does. Now thats just for that phase, overall BF will put combat ahead probably, and also if you have a drake released which is just being tanked on top of halfus for the last phase combat could BF it and probably do more damage in the phase.

Mutilate is probably better on Alakir because you can't use KS, and also on Ascendant Council because you burn phase is <35% usually with BL up and so Mut Rogues do well.

You might have a better Alakir strat than we do. I tried to find a way to be able to backstab him in p3 but with how we've been doing it I can't. That might put combat higher if you are in the same situation I am with that.

On fights where you are interrupting (Halfus, Nefarian) I find Combat better because you have better energy regen and you are less likely to be stuck without the energy for a Kick (not a major issue for Mut rogues but possible).

There is never any acceptable reason for any rogue spec to not have energy to kick. It doesn't matter how much you regen... you simply do not spend the last 15 energy when you have a kick coming up. I don't know the EP for 15 energy for each spec off hand so I'm not sure which is a larger dps loss, but either way you should never be stuck without enough to kick.

[Taara]

Each spec has its ups and downs but for me personally I love Combat, Combat swords has been my primary raiding spec since Molten Core even when the mastery was garbage I didnt switch and surprisingly I still managed to top out a lot of mutilate rogues. really depends on what you want to play the damage output from both specs are actually extremely close. which one wins depends on your gear and skill in all honesty.

[shadowboy]

There is never any acceptable reason for any rogue spec to not have energy to kick. It doesn't matter how much you regen... you simply do not spend the last 15 energy when you have a kick coming up. I don't know the EP for 15 energy for each spec off hand so I'm not sure which is a larger dps loss, but either way you should never be stuck without enough to kick.

Assassination deals more damage-per-energy so it's a bigger personal dps loss for assassination to be on kick duty. But you are correct. If you properly manage energy as assassination you should never be short on energy for a kick. For combat though, you generally need to dump energy as often as possible to prevent capping, but as a counter argument, the energy regeneration for combat is high enough that even if you dump you have enough energy to kick by the next global anyway.

[Sesshou]

For combat though, you generally need to dump energy as often as possible to prevent capping, but as a counter argument, the energy regeneration for combat is high enough that even if you dump you have enough energy to kick by the next global anyway.

Yeah you might need to dump energy, but that would imply that you are over 15 energy, therefore you will have enough energy to kick and it is off the GCD so won't interfere with dumping energy through SS, RvS, Evis, SnD, or Rupture.

Also kicking "by the next global" is not good enough. I spend all my energy on a global, 1 second later having enough to kick won't help if the cast was 1 second or less. If kick was actually on the GCD you would have a point sort of if you actually put yourself on GCD, but if kick was on the GCD you would need to make sure you weren't on GCD when you needed to kick.

[shadowboy]

Yeah you might need to dump energy, but that would imply that you are over 15 energy, therefore you will have enough energy to kick and it is off the GCD so won't interfere with dumping energy through SS, RvS, Evis, SnD, or Rupture.

Also kicking "by the next global" is not good enough. I spend all my energy on a global, 1 second later having enough to kick won't help if the cast was 1 second or less. If kick was actually on the GCD you would have a point sort of if you actually put yourself on GCD, but if kick was on the GCD you would need to make sure you weren't on GCD when you needed to kick.

If the cast were 1sec or less your kick probably wouldn't land anyway. Typical reaction time is 400-600ms and if you have a similar ping, by the time the server gets your kick, the spell has already completed. Learn to read between the lines. My "by the next global" implies that within 1 second of any reaction (less if you get a CP proc), you have enough to kick again. Energy regeneration for combat is on par with reaction time so how much energy you have at any given point is irrelevant. Whether kick is on or off the GCD is also irrelevant.


And on a different note: Whether or not assassination is still top is in the air. Combat median dps has already passed assassination on all 4 BoT fights and a few others as well. It has passed assassination in mean (but not median) overall dps total according to stateofdps.com, but has not yet passed assassination for the adjusted total (mean or median). Keep in mind I am referring to 25 heroic stats only, as I don't often look at the other modes.

[Sesshou]

If the cast were 1sec or less your kick probably wouldn't land anyway. Typical reaction time is 400-600ms and if you have a similar ping, by the time the server gets your kick, the spell has already completed. Learn to read between the lines. My "by the next global" implies that within 1 second of any reaction (less if you get a CP proc), you have enough to kick again. Energy regeneration for combat is on par with reaction time so how much energy you have at any given point is irrelevant. Whether kick is on or off the GCD is also irrelevant.


And on a different note: Whether or not assassination is still top is in the air. Combat median dps has already passed assassination on all 4 BoT fights and a few others as well. It has passed assassination in mean (but not median) overall dps total according to stateofdps.com, but has not yet passed assassination for the adjusted total (mean or median). Keep in mind I am referring to 25 heroic stats only, as I don't often look at the other modes.

Lol, kick probably wouldn't land on a 1 sec or less cast... Thats a load of crap. I've kicked plenty of stuff thats 1 sec or faster. And who plays with 400-600 ping... of course your ping won't match your reaction time... And how does "by the next global" not mean by the next global. If I go on GCD, then by the next global would be when I am off GCD. So my statement still stands. Knowing you will absolutely have the energy in the 1 second it takes to get to the next global is not good enough when you could need to kick a cast that will finish before then. Note that I did not say you could not have the energy earlier as obviously 1 cp proc is enough, just that knowing you have it "by the next global" is not enough.

And whether or not kick is on or off the GCD is absolutely relevant. If it was on the GCD then "by the next global" is adequate because you can not kick earlier than the next global so whether or not you have energy between the 2 points is meaningless. However, it is not on the GCD, so you do want to have the energy to kick when you need to kick and "by the next global" might not be soon enough.

[Bloodlover]

I played Combat all through Vanilla, BC, and WotLK. After switching to Assassination in Cataclysm, beside the DPS balance, it IS a lot more fluid, in the exact timing of opening with Garrote, laying down a quick rupture, a quick SnD, and a quick Envenom. Maintain Rupture and Envenom finishers at good times (Rupture after LAST dot has ticked, Envenom at 4-5 pts at 90 energy, or when Envenom buff runs out, or when energy caps). Throw in your cooldowns, and it all comes together so fluidly. Always stay behind your enemy (dump Expertise) The fun part is when you get to 36%, Vanish, Garrote, Vendetta, Potion of Tol'vir, Backstab (glorius <35%) to 5 pts (always). Fuuun DPS, really high-end Envenom crits. At 357.5 equipped item level, I pull 14k on Dummy Poisons only, no food, potion, or flask. (can't backstab dummies)

Bottom line. Combat was fun, but was clunky and is out of date I keep Twilight Fang in my bags, hoping they fix Combat soon

You hit it on the nail, combat is way more clunky than assassination is.

[Synexlol]

Average human reaction time is about .2 seconds, or 20 miliseconds.

Mean/Median DPS is completely irrelevant when comparing specs due to differences in gear/abilities we see in places like WoL. It won't be settled until we have mathematical theory that proves one to be better. Right now, we can assume Combat is better >35% and Mutilate is better <35%.

[shadowboy]

Average human reaction time is about .2 seconds, or 20 miliseconds.

Mean/Median DPS is completely irrelevant when comparing specs due to differences in gear/abilities we see in places like WoL. It won't be settled until we have mathematical theory that proves one to be better. Right now, we can assume Combat is better >35% and Mutilate is better <35%.

You need to re-learn your units of time. 0.2 seconds is 200 milliseconds. 20ms is 1/20th of a second, or slightly more than the length of time of 1 frame of a movie. Reaction time is not rigid like that either.

Reaction time varies based on what the person is reacting to and how they should react. If, say, a boss has multiple different casts and you are assigned to interrupt a specific spell (say, ashbury in SFK), your reaction time will be MUCH slower than if you were supposed to interrupt every 3rd cast (say, interrupt rotation on vezax). This is because it takes a little extra time for the brain to process what spell is being cast and subsequently provide the "choice" of whether or not to kick. As an example, on Maloriak if you have to interrupt the next arcane storm but allow the next aberrations to release you will NOT respond to that in 0.2 seconds, as you have to first determine which spell is being cast before you hit the interrupt button (or not).

Top WoL parses are going to represent players with top skill and top gear (lower skilled/geared players won't make top 200 parses unless there are not enough, or if there has been a big nerf to the spec, which is not the case for either combat or assassination). All the "theory" in the world doesn't mean anything unless it's an infinitely long patchwerk fight by a zero-mistakes player with 0 ping. "Theory" will not necessarily match reality. WoL represents reality. Reality says combat is catching up. It is close to assassination. Ahead on some fights, behind on others. Whether that means one spec or the other is better or worse for those fights is completely debateable.

[Synexlol]

Apologies about the units of time, you are right.

Personally I will never trust WoL because, even if the top 200 parses are to be the top 200 players, you are going to get players of different skill and gear so you can never have a controlled environment to test both specs.