10-Man vs. 25-Man - What's the difference?

[Dumanias]

I remember in Wrath of the Lich King raids, you had to gear up for the 25-Man version of raids by doing the 10-Man version of the same raid, and the 25-Man version had better gear than the 10-Man version.

But now I'm confused. Do 25-Man raids in Cataclysm have better loot than the 10-Man versions? What is Hard Mode? Is the progression the same as in Wrath?

Please be as detailed as possible so I know what the difference is.

Thank you in advance.

[masterdisaster]

Same loot, and difficulty (at least thats the design goal). 25s just drop more loot per person. There is now 10, 10 Hard mode, 25, and 25 Hard mode. So far Blizz seems to be having trouble balancing the 10/25 but it should get better as time goes on.

[Burningphoenix]

The thing is people could raid 25 mans and get better gear and then raid 10 mans and not be a challenge. Now in Cataclysm, both 10 and 25 man drop the same loot but in 25 mans, you get 7 pieces per boss as in 10 mans, you only get 3 pieces. After you kill all 12 raid bosses, you can go for Hard modes which means that bosses are stronger and drop higher quality gear.

Also, the progression is better on 25 mans just because of the balancing between 10 and 25 mans but not a lot of difference between the two.

[Afrosaurus]

Well, besides the loot distribution as some have mentioned (2 drops in 10 man, 6 drops in 25 man), there isn't much of a difference.

Speaking of content ALONE, 10 mans tend to be harder/more unforgiving compared to 25 mans.
10s, however, are easier to organize, which is why there are more 10 than 25 man guilds.

[Gunslinger]

Well, besides the loot distribution as some have mentioned (2 drops in 10 man, 6 drops in 25 man), there isn't much of a difference.

Speaking of content ALONE, 10 mans tend to be harder/more unforgiving compared to 25 mans.
10s, however, are easier to organize, which is why there are more 10 than 25 man guilds.

Pretty much this. However not only are 10 mans harder they also require certain set-ups that vary from fight to fight if you intend to jump into HM.

[Deleted]

Speaking of content ALONE, 10 mans tend to be harder/more unforgiving compared to 25 mans.
10s, however, are easier to organize, which is why there are more 10 than 25 man guilds.

That is absolutely not true. Loosing one person in a 25 man environement can be just as bad as in 10 man.

[Shjimm]

That is absolutely not true. Loosing one person in a 25 man environement can be just as bad as in 10 man.

How is that not true what he said? He said it TENDS to be, as in most cases, which is a fact. In 25s you can easily keep going with several dpsers dead, compared to 10s, that could mean a wipe as soon as you loose 1 person. Talking about heroic modes mostly.

[Ragelicious]

That is absolutely not true. Loosing one person in a 25 man environement can be just as bad as in 10 man.

Mute yourself. You happen to be dumb atm.

[Fluffys]

That is absolutely not true. Loosing one person in a 25 man environement can be just as bad as in 10 man.

ill agree that it "can" be (tanks and such) but in most cases no sir.
1/10=.1
1/25=.04

[Deleted]

How is that not true what he said? He said it TENDS to be, as in most cases, which is a fact. In 25s you can easily keep going with several dpsers dead, compared to 10s, that could mean a wipe as soon as you loose 1 person. Talking about heroic modes mostly.

In alot of fights, loosing a tank or healer in the wrong time in 25 man results in a wipe. Also, when beginning heroic modes, loosing 1 dps is usually a wipe.

When you are progressing ( read: Not FARMING ), loosing a single dps early on at chimaeron, maloriak or halfus heroic = wipe in 25 man.

In 10 man, we have 9 manned entire BoT in our alt run, we have lost several people on magmaw, atramedes, chimaeron, maloriak and omnotron, killed without a problem.

We 8 manned Al'Akir in our alt run. 6 manned Valiona and Theralion ( after 4 people died during the first breath Valiona cast ). Loosing people in 10 mans is just as easily recoverable as in 25 man, and if you say otherwise your blatantly bad.

One thing you also have to remember that in theory, there are greater chance of a player in 25 man to die. ( Since its a bigger chance to 1 of 25 then 1 of 10 to stand in fire )

In some fights, loosing 1 guy in 10 man = wipe, in most of the fights its not.
In some fights, loosing 1 guy in 25 man = wipe, in most of the fights its not.

Same is true for both difficulties.

Anyone saying its more dangerous to lose players in 10 then 25 has never played 25 man in Cata.
It sucks equally hard in both.

[Shjimm]

Anyone saying its more dangerous to lose players in 10 then 25 has never played 25 man in Cata.
It sucks equally hard in both.

I am mostly talking about hard modes, like i said. And of course not taking into acount losing a tank, for obvious reasons.

Take Conclave 10 heroic, extremely tight requirements, lose 1 person and you are going to wipe, most certainly. Maloriak, one person dies, the fire breath will most likely kill someone cause you dont have enough people to split the damage.
Enragetimers are generally tighter for 10 mans as well, so just loosing a dps can make or break the timer.

Im sorry but, I highly disagree with what you are saying. Unless you are only talking about normal modes, which I couldnt care less about

[Argg0]

In alot of fights, loosing a tank or healer in the wrong time in 25 man results in a wipe. Also, when beginning heroic modes, loosing 1 dps is usually a wipe.

When you are progressing ( read: Not FARMING ), loosing a single dps early on at chimaeron, maloriak or halfus heroic = wipe in 25 man.

In 10 man, we have 9 manned entire BoT in our alt run, we have lost several people on magmaw, atramedes, chimaeron, maloriak and omnotron, killed without a problem.

We 8 manned Al'Akir in our alt run. 6 manned Valiona and Theralion ( after 4 people died during the first breath Valiona cast ). Loosing people in 10 mans is just as easily recoverable as in 25 man, and if you say otherwise your blatantly bad.

One thing you also have to remember that in theory, there are greater chance of a player in 25 man to die. ( Since its a bigger chance to 1 of 25 then 1 of 10 to stand in fire )

In some fights, loosing 1 guy in 10 man = wipe, in most of the fights its not.
In some fights, loosing 1 guy in 25 man = wipe, in most of the fights its not.

Same is true for both difficulties.

Anyone saying its more dangerous to lose players in 10 then 25 has never played 25 man in Cata.
It sucks equally hard in both.

While that's true, the weight of losing a DPS in 10s is much bigger. Let's say everyone does 17k DPS average, tanks do 8k.

10m: 5 DPS, 2 Tanks -> 101k raid DPS
25m: 17 DPS, 2 tanks -> 305k raid DPS

Now, 1 DPS dies.

10m: 4 DPS, 2 Tanks -> 84k raid DPS (~16.8% dps loss)
25m: 16 DPS, 2 tanks -> 288k raid DPS (~5.5% dps loss)

To compensate the DPS lost each DPS would need to do more damage. In the 10m case, each DPS would need to do 4.25k DPS more to compensate the dead one while in 25m they would only need to do 1.06k to compensate that loss.

So, if you really think that losing a DPS in 25 is as bad as losing one in 10... think again. I'm not saying it's not bad to lose a DPS in 25, I'm just saying that losing 16.8% of your DPS is a lot worse than losing 5.5% and it is A LOT easier to compensate the dead in 25.

[Deleted]

Losing a dps in 25 man isn't even CLOSE to as big of a loss as a dps in 10 man, anecdotes won't stop the math from being true. In a 10man you can lose 20% of your DPS is a dps goes down... in 25man, you lost what, 10%? Even less?

[Chob]

In alot of fights, loosing a tank or healer in the wrong time in 25 man results in a wipe. Also, when beginning heroic modes, loosing 1 dps is usually a wipe.

When you are progressing ( read: Not FARMING ), loosing a single dps early on at chimaeron, maloriak or halfus heroic = wipe in 25 man.

In 10 man, we have 9 manned entire BoT in our alt run, we have lost several people on magmaw, atramedes, chimaeron, maloriak and omnotron, killed without a problem.

We 8 manned Al'Akir in our alt run. 6 manned Valiona and Theralion ( after 4 people died during the first breath Valiona cast ). Loosing people in 10 mans is just as easily recoverable as in 25 man, and if you say otherwise your blatantly bad.

One thing you also have to remember that in theory, there are greater chance of a player in 25 man to die. ( Since its a bigger chance to 1 of 25 then 1 of 10 to stand in fire )

In some fights, loosing 1 guy in 10 man = wipe, in most of the fights its not.
In some fights, loosing 1 guy in 25 man = wipe, in most of the fights its not.

Same is true for both difficulties.

Anyone saying its more dangerous to lose players in 10 then 25 has never played 25 man in Cata.
It sucks equally hard in both.

Your entire post is meaningless because it's based on normal modes. Normal modes are designed to be forgiving, yes you can still kill valiona with 6 people. Re-read your post and assume heroic modes... you still think your argument holds?

[ChildeRoland]

While they try to balance 10 and 25 as much as they can, currently 25 mans are easier than 10 mans except for certain fights. Loot is the same, however.

[Grubby]

Positioning 25 people is alot harder than positioning 10 as the area you have doesnt scale. This is feel is the biggest difference, I have to be honest, in my experience 10man has always felt easier than 25man assuming you have 10 and 25 decent players. 10man will highlight a bad player faster though.

[tangedyn]

There are also a lot more cooldowns to go around in 25man. When I talked to some people who have done H Chimaeron about how they handle the first attack on the Feud Tank, they simply reply "Lay on Hands rotation".

Yeah, we got our first kill last night without a Lay on Hands rotation, so it's definitely doable without. We'd probably have gotten the kill sooner if that was available to us though.

[Miasmatix]

The encounter's health is buffed dramatically in 25 man, Take that into account.
In all fairness its harder to organise 25 mans with good players (you dont want noobs like me accidentally pulling chimaeron HC with blind), and 10 mans suffer from needing all players to be good as they arent designed for boosting. Although we have halfus HC on farm 10 man but its still a wipefest on 25 man. It depends on encounter.

[Ovansjo]

In alot of fights, loosing a tank or healer in the wrong time in 25 man results in a wipe. Also, when beginning heroic modes, loosing 1 dps is usually a wipe.

When you are progressing ( read: Not FARMING ), loosing a single dps early on at chimaeron, maloriak or halfus heroic = wipe in 25 man.

In 10 man, we have 9 manned entire BoT in our alt run, we have lost several people on magmaw, atramedes, chimaeron, maloriak and omnotron, killed without a problem.

We 8 manned Al'Akir in our alt run. 6 manned Valiona and Theralion ( after 4 people died during the first breath Valiona cast ). Loosing people in 10 mans is just as easily recoverable as in 25 man, and if you say otherwise your blatantly bad.

One thing you also have to remember that in theory, there are greater chance of a player in 25 man to die. ( Since its a bigger chance to 1 of 25 then 1 of 10 to stand in fire )

In some fights, loosing 1 guy in 10 man = wipe, in most of the fights its not.
In some fights, loosing 1 guy in 25 man = wipe, in most of the fights its not.

Same is true for both difficulties.

Anyone saying its more dangerous to lose players in 10 then 25 has never played 25 man in Cata.
It sucks equally hard in both.

Anyone else didn't get his point because you got distracted by almost half his raid wiping of an easily avoidable breath?

[Shjimm]

Anyone else didn't get his point because you got distracted by almost half his raid wiping of an easily avoidable breath?

Well to be fair, he said it was an alt run, and as we all know, you forget how to play the game once you log on an alt.