do animals really want freedom?

[Gothicshark]

ok so the OP turned this in to a PETA thread. I love all Animals. I have three cats. I eat Chicken, fish, bacon, pork, Cow, Deer, rabbit, Any Sushi, and just about anything once considered an animal. I am a Science minded person and believe humans do need to grow up as a species.

But if a Species can not survive this period of global history, then we should cry for no more than a few seconds get over it and move on. Humans are the greatest force for evolutionary change right now, and I think that is a good thing, not a bad thing. However its ok to lament the weak species which couldn't make it.

As for Zoos, I'm not a fan. If we pen up animals and don't eat them or breed them domestic in one way or another it is against evolution to do so. but freeing them is silly, since all animals in a zoos are as good as dead to nature. Since they serve no purpose.

[Callace]

ok so the OP turned this in to a PETA thread. I love all Animals. I have three cats. I eat Chicken, fish, bacon, pork, Cow, Deer, rabbit, Any Sushi, and just about anything once considered an animal. I am a Science minded person and believe humans do need to grow up as a species.

But if a Species can not survive this period of global history, then we should cry for no more than a few seconds get over it and move on. Humans are the greatest force for evolutionary change right now, and I think that is a good thing, not a bad thing. However its ok to lament the weak species which couldn't make it.

As for Zoos, I'm not a fan. If we pen up animals and don't eat them or breed them domestic in one way or another it is against evolution to do so. but freeing them is silly, since all animals in a zoos are as good as dead to nature. Since they serve no purpose.

Yup. I'll go a bit further and add I don't think we should step on animals habitats either if we can help it.

[JohnnyTKF]

/thread


...yeah, pretending we aren't crappy to animals seems a bit Orwellian to me, get used to it, I guess.

It's just what some people say so they can feel like everything's right, instead of realizing Humanity is screwing up the world. I mean, look at the Amazon, if the reports are true, we'll lose the majority of that by the end of the century (Unless some proper laws stop the deforesting... Yeah right)

And Gothic, of course, my race will come first, but you gotta realize that the reason animals are endangered is NOT because of us growing as a species, but because of greedy pieces of crap who wanted something to decorate their room with. And the problem is laws to stop extinction (I'm fine with reserves if needed) are a joke (Yes, say what you want, but they aren't working as they should), I'm pretty sure that poachers still roam Africa, for example, and hunt the animals. And for what? So a douchebag can feel special because he has a different piano? That's disgusting, and it doesn't mean we are evolving, it means we have some rotten apples who don't contribute.

[Gothicshark]

Yup. I'll go a bit further and add I don't think we should step on animals habitats either if we can help it.

I think you missed the point of my post, it is human nature to spread out and adjust the environment to meet our needs. and if other species can't adapt and die, that is ok, since the species that survive are all the stronger because of it.

I say burn down the rain forests, change the world in our image. What lives deserves to live what dies was weak.

---------- Post added 2011-03-05 at 08:47 PM ----------

It's just what some people say so they can feel like everything's right, instead of realizing Humanity is screwing up the world. I mean, look at the Amazon, if the reports are true, we'll lose the majority of that by the end of the century (Unless some proper laws stop the deforesting... Yeah right)

And Gothic, of course, my race will come first, but you gotta realize that the reason animals are endangered is NOT because of us growing as a species, but because of greedy pieces of crap who wanted something to decorate their room with. And the problem is laws to stop extinction (I'm fine with reserves if needed) are a joke (Yes, say what you want, but they aren't working as they should), I'm pretty sure that poachers still roam Africa, for example, and hunt the animals. And for what? So a douchebag can feel special because he has a different piano? That's disgusting, and it doesn't mean we are evolving, it means we have some rotten apples who don't contribute.

I say if there is a market for Elephant tusks than we should farm Elephants just like cattle, the Farmer will protect there crop and insure its survival.

if the creature is at risk, learn to farm it sell its meat or what product is valuable. other wise let it die.

---

the idea of a reserve is stupid and pointless, and a waste of money.

[Mimir]

Well, when I look at it from the perspective of myself as a human, I see that in modern civilization all the biological basics are covered, and I can live a life of relative leisure without fear of being eaten, or starving or dying of a broken bone. From the biological standpoint, I love civilization, but from the social perspective I honestly envy "wild" humans, their entertainment is each other and multiple generations of the same family all live in the same area so the family unit is still strong; they share in the thrill of the hunt and the sorrow of famine.

[Callace]

I think you missed the point of my post, it is human nature to spread out and adjust the environment to meet our needs. and if other species can't adapt and die, that is ok, since the species that survive are all the stronger because of it.

I say burn down the rain forests, change the world in our image. What lives deserves to live what dies was weak.

---------- Post added 2011-03-05 at 08:47 PM ----------



I say if there is a market for Elephant tusks than we should farm Elephants just like cattle, the Farmer will protect there crop and insure its survival.

if the creature is at risk, learn to farm it sell its meat or what product is valuable. other wise let it die.

---

the idea of a reserve is stupid and pointless, and a waste of money.

Swell. Once we run out of oxygen under your fabulous *'ideas', I'm coming to claim yours.

*histrionic brain spasms


---------- Post added 2011-03-06 at 05:05 AM ----------

It's just what some people say so they can feel like everything's right, instead of realizing Humanity is screwing up the world. I mean, look at the Amazon, if the reports are true, we'll lose the majority of that by the end of the century (Unless some proper laws stop the deforesting... Yeah right).

People put their entitled Ids before too many things these days, unfortunately, like thought, reason, empathy, appreciation, learning... etc. etc. As long as they're getting some kind of constant stimulation from electronic devices, everything's fine until their ceiling is on fire above their head...

[Gothicshark]

Swell. Once we run out of oxygen under your fabulous *'ideas', I'm coming to claim yours.

*histrionic brain spasms


---------- Post added 2011-03-06 at 05:05 AM ----------



People put their entitled Ids before too many things these days, unfortunately, like thought, reason, empathy, appreciation, learning... etc. etc. As long as they're getting some kind of constant stimulation from electronic devices, everything's fine until their ceiling is on fire above their head...

Several things, if things get to the point where N2O* chokes off our ability to breath and we die off as a species then that is good as well. My point is Humans are a Natural species which evolved on this planet, anything that humans do is apart of nature no matter what a person feels is right or wrong, evolution has no morality other than survival of the fittest. And if humans are not fit to continue, and if humans can't adapt then they should die out as well, however if humans evolve and grow and continue to live than Humans deserve to live on. My whole point is Your race is being judged on your actions. I removed myself from the gene pool long ago, so I do not claim any part in Humanities choices, but I can tell you the rules that will judge you.

What I said as an opinion is the fact of Nature, it's cold, it's heartless and it doesn't care about feelings. if humans are to become strong we have to see the line between emotion and logic and we need to actually understand nature. How many times has life on this planet ended or nearly end?

what creatures survived each time? what is the meaning of life it things can just end. to ask about animals in cages we have to ask our selves what are we actually doing as a species what is a human. what are emotions, what is logic.

*nitrous oxide

[Halicia]

Yup. I'll go a bit further and add I don't think we should step on animals habitats either if we can help it.

agreed. it always grates on my nerves when people think making wilderness more 'habitable' to humans with highways and housing complexes is a good thing.

humanity's ideal should be reducing our footprint on the world, not expanding it.

[Callace]

Several things, if things get to the point where N2O* chokes off our ability to breath and we die off as a species then that is good as well. My point is Humans are a Natural species which evolved on this planet, anything that humans do is apart of nature no matter what a person feels is right or wrong, evolution has no morality other than survival of the fittest. And if humans are not fit to continue, and if humans can't adapt then they should die out as well, however if humans evolve and grow and continue to live than Humans deserve to live on. My whole point is Your race is being judged on your actions. I removed myself from the gene pool long ago, so I do not claim any part in Humanities choices, but I can tell you the rules that will judge you.

What I said as an opinion is the fact of Nature, it's cold, it's heartless and it doesn't care about feelings. if humans are to become strong we have to see the line between emotion and logic and we need to actually understand nature. How many times has life on this planet ended or nearly end?

what creatures survived each time? what is the meaning of life it things can just end. to ask about animals in cages we have to ask our selves what are we actually doing as a species what is a human. what are emotions, what is logic.

*nitrous oxide

Survival of the fittest doesn't apply to our methods of artificiality. Darwin's original theories were distinctly crafted to be applied to animals in a wild environment. Gazelles can't pave over forests, birds can't inoculate for diseases, monkeys can't split atoms. I understood the point you were making, I think it's grossly disproportionate. Our creations are above nature, honey.Way above it. Nature is our study of everything else as it occurs without our meddling. That's why scientists aren't allowed to get involved when they're documenting wild environments.One species altering the habitats of every other species on the planet isn't an example of nature. That's hubris. Our self-improvement has nothing to do with genocide. The ends never justify the means, you're confusing strength with wisdom.

[Gothicshark]

Callace Survival of the fittest doesn't apply to artificiality. monkeys can't split atoms. I think it's grossly disproportionate. Nature is our study of everything else as it occurs without our meddling. One species altering the habitats of every other species on the planet isn't nature. That's hubris. Our self-improvement has nothing to do with genocide. The ends don't justify the means, you're confusing strength with wisdom.


Only thing is Humans are a Species of Monkeys. And when you understand the that Natural is a misleading concept, Volcanoes are natural, Meteor Impacts are natural, Beavers Make Damms, other creatures do almost everything humans do just not on the same scale.

Humans want to assign Right and Wrong to everything, Humans are trying to put order to chaos. In my opinion the "Natural Order" is the order of Chaos. Carnivores kill, Sickness happens, droughts happens. the World we live in changes daily, human effect is actually not as big as we think. we give our selves a self importance that is a little insane. Humans want to save this save that, OMG Polar bears are brown now, must be Humanities fault. Life is about change and adaption, Order causes stagnation, and corruption of Nature. trying to create "Natural reserves" is the most unnatural thing to do. if humans are to be true to our nature we are to learn about nature and change it to meet our needs, we should be vaccinating animals, Protecting life hands on so we can profit off of Natural resources. Earlier you mentioned the rain forests. if Brazil was smart it should charge every nation on earth Air Tax, and it shouldn't be cheep.

You see the "Burning" of the rain forests is to provide food for Brazil.

[Maximen]

You should check out petakillsanimals dot whatever just google it

The horrible truth is, peta is a money making organisation and the kill 97% of the animals the "free"

just ask yourself why pay 1 millionen dollars on a pam anderson campaign if you can help a shtld of animals with that money?

If this is new to you please spread the word, and if you have a pet i salute you, if you didnt put it somewhere and left i applaud you

peta kills please spread the message, you can just read petas own buisness report if you dont wanna check biased sources

97% killed which makes tens of thousands

[Callace]

Callace Survival of the fittest doesn't apply to artificiality. monkeys can't split atoms. I think it's grossly disproportionate. Nature is our study of everything else as it occurs without our meddling. One species altering the habitats of every other species on the planet isn't nature. That's hubris. Our self-improvement has nothing to do with genocide. The ends don't justify the means, you're confusing strength with wisdom.


Only thing is Humans are a Species of Monkeys. And when you understand the that Natural is a misleading concept, Volcanoes are natural, Meteor Impacts are natural, Beavers Make Damms, other creatures do almost everything humans do just not on the same scale.

Humans want to assign Right and Wrong to everything, Humans are trying to put order to chaos. In my opinion the "Natural Order" is the order of Chaos. Carnivores kill, Sickness happens, droughts happens. the World we live in changes daily, human effect is actually not as big as we think. we give our selves a self importance that is a little insane. Humans want to save this save that, OMG Polar bears are brown now, must be Humanities fault. Life is about change and adaption, Order causes stagnation, and corruption of Nature. trying to create "Natural reserves" is the most unnatural thing to do. if humans are to be true to our nature we are to learn about nature and change it to meet our needs, we should be vaccinating animals, Protecting life hands on so we can profit off of Natural resources. Earlier you mentioned the rain forests. if Brazil was smart it should charge ever nation on earth Air Tax, and it shouldn't be cheep.

You see the "Burning" of the rain forests is to provide food for Brazil.

A Animals are committed to natural selection
B Animals with technology are not committed to natural selection (by definition and research)
C Humans are animals with technology
Thus
D Humans are committed to natural selection?

I'm glad you understand that humans are animals. I'm not so glad that you believe that burning things will create more resources. Is destruction for its own sake psychotic behavior?

That's fine. If you think that chaos is order then there isn't anything to discuss.

[Gothicshark]

That's fine. If you think that chaos is order then there isn't anything to discuss.

there is Order to everything, Chaos is in itself a form of Order. Life is about creating order to survive in chaos and to adapt with the changes that come. Human Order is just another form of Chaos and it is just as Natural as a beavers Dam or a Spiders Web. This is why "Environmentalists" in my Opinion are fighting the Natural Order of life on this planet.

Callace It is good you are environmentalist and you have a right to your opinions, but you should be aware not everyone feels the same. and you should try to understand other peoples opinions it helps you to understand your self, by forcing you to create a logical stance of opinions which you can argue logically and calmly, and pick the best words you know to describe how you feel.

Honestly I love it when people have other ideas of how the world works so I can formulate better how I feel about the world in my own words. Do I have a cold view of life, yes. but it is because I have seen the horrors of Radical Environmentalists first hand. I have seen them brake the law jeopardize human lives just to take an Animal away from someone they felt was evil, only to turn around and kill the Animal because it was suffering.

So whose right, whose wrong? Does it matter in the end not really.

[Callace]

there is Order to everything, Chaos is in itself a form of Order. Life is about creating order to survive in chaos and to adapt with the changes that come. Human Order is just another form of Chaos and it is just as Natural as a beavers Dam or a Spiders Web. This is why "Environmentalists" in my Opinion are fighting the Natural Order of life on this planet.

Callace It is good you are environmentalist and you have a right to your opinions, but you should be aware not everyone feels the same. and you should try to understand other peoples opinions it helps you to understand your self, by forcing you to create a logical stance of opinions which you can argue logically and calmly, and pick the best words you know to describe how you feel.

Honestly I love it when people have other ideas of how the world works so I can formulate better how I feel about the world in my own words. Do I have a cold view of life, yes. but it is because I have seen the horrors of Radical Environmentalists first hand. I have seen them brake the law jeopardize human lives just to take an Animal away from someone they felt was evil, only to turn around and kill the Animal because it was suffering.

So whose right, whose wrong? Does it matter in the end not really.

So we should eliminate the diversity of life in the world to show our dominance?
That's just sick. I'm not an environmentalist. I haven't protected anything. That doesn't mean I believe in destruction for its own sake.
I'm just not a hardcore nihilist. If you don't believe in anything that's your problem, not the chosen path of our species. I'd rather there be something to wake up to in the morning.

[Gothicshark]

Callace So we should eliminate the diversity of life in the world to show our dominance?

That is nothing like what I am saying, go back reread my position. you have missed a critical point of what I am Saying.

I do not believe that Humans are doing anything that is unnatural, I do not believe we should regret our past mistakes, I believe we should learn from them and grow our selves. I think Humanity needs to evolve a little more.

A Animals are committed to natural selection

There is no choice to Natural selection. saying Committed implies a choice.

B Animals with technology are not committed to natural selection (by definition and research)

this is a well spoken theory and is not a fact and is not agreed upon. However in someways Humans do defy Natural selection by insuring the survival and reproduction or members of our race who should have died before breeding would be possible. ie premature babies, most childhood illnesses, genetic disorders...ect

Conversely the second part of Evolution is Survival of the fittest and because of the way we understand the world and because of our brains we can survive in places no other life form can.

C Humans are animals with technology

So are bees.

Thus
D Humans are committed to natural selection?

No most humans believe the Earth spontaneously busted forth out of nothing, in less than a week.

All of you logic is good but its pointless because Artificial Selection is just as valid when it comes to Evolution look at the Dog. and just because I use the defined term Artificial selection, doesn't mean it was unnatural. since humans did major genetic modifications to dogs with out even realizing how that worked. We turned a wolf in to a chihuahua... o.0 so yah its natural for humans to change the world to meet our needs. and that is my whole point.

---------- Post added 2011-03-05 at 11:32 PM ----------

Additional note before I start watch some random Anime:

I think humans as a species need to take responsibility for insuring the survival of as many creatures as possible, but in order to do that we need to find a marketable value for each species, because when a creature becomes valuable to humans we change them we grow them we nurture them, and protect them. Humans by nature do no like random life doing random things. so we need to practice what we have learned about genetics, breeding, farming and a host of other sciences, however creating "Game reverses" will cause the protected species to die out faster than if we left them alone. and Zoos are just as bad, however at least animals in Zoos can be breed and raised for exhibit. which in its own way is domesticating the kept species.

[Callace]

its natural for humans to change the world to meet our needs. and that is my whole point.

Good. Please don't imply that burning the rain-forests is integral to that.

[Gothicshark]

Good. Please don't imply that burning the rain-forests is integral to that.

it is integral to feeding the growing economy of Brazil.

Why is the Brazilian Amazon being Destroyed?
Today deforestation in the Amazon is the result of several activities, the foremost of which include:

1. Clearing for cattle pasture
2. Colonization and subsequent subsistence agriculture
3. Infrastructure improvements
4. Commercial agriculture
5. Logging

Asking Brazil to stop is like asking Saudi Arabia to stop drilling Oil.

As I said earlier if you want to save the rain forests the world needs to pay Brazil an Air Tax so they can afford not to do it.

a good read http://www.mongabay.com/20brazil.htm

[d0e1ow]

ok lets think of this logically

Ok, let's do. Animals don't "want" anything. Animals have no concept of "Freedom" and "Captivity" because these are concepts solely engineered in the human mind. Take American buzzwords and concepts for example, I'll give you a few: "patriot" and "liberty." If we, as a species, entirely ceased to exist tomorrow, would these words mean anything anymore? No. Now, would their definitions mean anything anymore? No.

Animals exist in this kind of state. They do not "want" and they do not "think" in the sense that we do. We reason; animals do not reason. When we are placed in a cage, we ask ourselves "Do I want to be in this cage?" Our answer will depend on the perspective we choose to take in understanding our situation. A non-human animal doesn't have this higher thought process. For an animal scratching at a cage, there is no "thought" in the human sense, only action. If animals though, I imagine we would see alot less roadkill.

---------- Post added 2011-03-06 at 04:19 AM ----------

I think you missed the point of my post, it is human nature to spread out and adjust the environment to meet our needs. and if other species can't adapt and die, that is ok, since the species that survive are all the stronger because of it.

I say burn down the rain forests, change the world in our image. What lives deserves to live what dies was weak.

---------- Post added 2011-03-05 at 08:47 PM ----------



I say if there is a market for Elephant tusks than we should farm Elephants just like cattle, the Farmer will protect there crop and insure its survival.

if the creature is at risk, learn to farm it sell its meat or what product is valuable. other wise let it die.

---

the idea of a reserve is stupid and pointless, and a waste of money.

I think you have some serious ethical issues, and are not, as you claim, a science minded person. You sound more like a humanist gone wrong.

Your argument that species just need to "adapt or die /shrug" is a ridiculous one. When humans begin to change the environment in such a way that it causes a population of a species to begin to die, it usually kills the individuals at an extremely fast rate. A rate that is so fast, natural selection does not even have a chance to occur.

Cheetahs are an example of this. They have been poached so furiously that natural selection could not occur in time. So now, the cheetah population is so small, and the genes of the individuals in the population are become extremely similar because there are too few individuals. It's almost like if you only had your family to breed with because everyone else was instantly killed off overnight, leaving a small population. Over time, the diversity in your gene pools would go away, and you would be clones. This is what has happened to cheetahs.

That is NOT natural. If you want to talk about animals just adapting to their environment in the wake of human expansion, you need to realize that humans cause changes that aren't natural at all, and therefore pretty much, in several cases, ruin natural selection and disrupt evolution. I hope you don't use your tunnel-vision Darwinism on a starving child on the side of the road. Christ.

[Gothicshark]

Sevvy88 Ok, let's do. Animals don't "want" anything. Animals have no concept of "Freedom" and "Captivity" because these are concepts solely engineered in the human mind. Take American buzzwords and concepts for example, I'll give you a few: "patriot" and "liberty." If we, as a species, entirely ceased to exist tomorrow, would these words mean anything anymore? No. Now, would their definitions mean anything anymore? No.

You need to spend time with more Animals before you say that. Cats, Dogs understand freedom, captivity, they want all kinds of things, and they have emotions just like humans.

Animals exist in this kind of state. They do not "want" and they do not "think" in the sense that we do. We reason; animals do not reason. When we are placed in a cage, we ask ourselves "Do I want to be in this cage?" Our answer will depend on the perspective we choose to take in understanding our situation. A non-human animal doesn't have this higher thought process. For an animal scratching at a cage, there is no "thought" in the human sense, only action. If animals though, I imagine we would see alot less roadkill.

We are Animals too, don't get all high and mighty thinking 'just because I have speech and opposable thumbs' that somehow Humans are the only creatures with emotions wants and needs. if you had animals in your life you would be surprised how good they are at problem solving. epically cats.

I think you have some serious ethical issues, and are not, as you claim, a science minded person. You sound more like a humanist gone wrong.

No its not a question of ethics, I just hate people. who base opinions on emotions before thinking. I do not believe Humans have the right to set Right and wrong but we do. And I really hate people bashing the world they live in when they have the luxuries with our civilization and refuse to take responsibility. if you want to save the world and stop the loss of diversity. And you really want animals to live wild, then sell everything you have buy a plane ticket to central Africa or Brazil and do something about it. Else your a Hypocrite.

I'm a Realist, and will point out the truth of the situation buy showing you what your behavior says even if your words don't. Even if I have to say the words in the first person.

Your argument that species just need to "adapt or die /shrug" is a ridiculous one. When humans begin to change the environment in such a way that it causes a population of a species to begin to die, it usually kills the individuals at an extremely fast rate. A rate that is so fast, natural selection does not even have a chance to occur.

Meteor impact, Super Volcano, Tidal Wave, Flooding, Humans, which has killed more species. Life continued after the event.

Cheetahs are an example of this. They have been poached so furiously that natural selection could not occur in time. So now, the cheetah population is so small, and the genes of the individuals in the population are become extremely similar because there are too few individuals. It's almost like if you only had your family to breed with because everyone else was instantly killed off overnight, leaving a small population. Over time, the diversity in your gene pools would go away, and you would be clones. This is what has happened to cheetahs.

Cats, various weeds, Flowers, Pigs. these killed off more species between 1492-1900 than poaching and clear cutting. granted Humans traveling over oceans did this, but it was unintentional. So the Cheetah is a victim as well. but as I said we can save it by farming, Cows Pigs, Dogs, Cats, and Chickens are global because of humans, we care for them, and they will last as long if not longer than humans because of this.

That is NOT natural. If you want to talk about animals just adapting to their environment in the wake of human expansion, you need to realize that humans cause changes that aren't natural at all, and therefore pretty much, in several cases, ruin natural selection and disrupt evolution. I hope you don't use your tunnel-vision Darwinism on a starving child on the side of the road. Christ.

When you say not natural, you don't really understand what humans do is because of how we evolved, the way we look at the world, the need for clothing, shoes, how we eat food. we do things because we need to survive in the way we where made. just like bees spiders Ants, Prairie dog, beavers. we all change the environment to suit our needs. Heck Coal has changed the Environment so significantly that entire Islands are made by them, and the course of water flow in several seas are shaped by coal. Humanity changes the environment to meet its needs because of our nature, and that is Natural.

[wakeskater]

AMInALs WANT TO Be EATEN

i think that about sums it up
/thread


its nommin time