Shadow Priests: Should we ALWAYS reforge to Haste?

[Deleted]

Hi! I've recently made some simulations with my current gear WITH DARK INTENT (I'm in a 10 man raid and I always get it) and SimCraft says Haste is my worst stat by far in all of them.

From the sticky Newnoise's PvE Shadow Guide we can see that with Dark Intent:

			 +1		 +2	        +3	        +4	       +5
Vampiric Touch	   10.00% (0000)   30.00% (2140)   50.00% (4441)   70.00% (6738)
Shadow Word: Pain  08.34% (0000)   25.00% (1565)   41.67% (3481)   58.34% (5397)
Devouring Plague   06.25% (0000)   18.75% (0346)   31.25% (2283)   43.75% (3720)   56.25% (5157)

I have 2410 Haste at this moment and since it's impossible to me getting 3481 Haste, should I reforge some Haste to Crit until I get =>2283 Haste or should I keep stacking Haste forever and ever???

I've always read everywhere "reforge ALWAYS to Haste" so many times that I don't know what to do. What should I do???

Thanks!

[bypass]

To be honest, stacking hast is not ALWAYS the optimal route depending on your gear. In order to get a true idea of your most valueable stat at any one time you need to run simcraft using your stats. However, for the most part, even if you hit the haste plateaus for certain dots, haste will still provide a decent return on investment. In that way it is safe to say that reforging haste will rarely be a BAD decision.

[Nesco]

Awesome list there! I guess it's 2283 haste that we should go for. The next important tick from haste is around 3720 haste, so best to start balancing stats after 2283 haste!
Unless you're clipping dots...

[Karei]

More haste means faster MF channels, Faster MB casts so all in all more time to do other stuff.
It would surprise me if hitting a hasteplateau and going further will gimp your dps.

[Abandon]

It would be interesting to see at what point the Diminishing Returns on Haste rating mean that other stats begin to become more viable.

[Siri]

It only happens if they become too unbalanced, it's not a set haste rating.

[Bigwolfe]

stack haste. easy answer.

[gherkin]

You break the GCD cap at 34.66% from gear, or 4438 rating. When you reach that, expect the value of haste to start plummeting.

Until then, yes reforge haste 100% of the time if you can.

[implicationmmo]

Please stop linking the soft cap haste values for SP's. It does not concern us.

Reason: when you refresh your dots (before it's finishes), you add the extra time on the dot, without cliping the last tick.
Hence the more haste you will have, the more ticks you will get, over a large number of dots refreshing.

EG: if you have 6 ticks on your VT, and you increase your haste, but not enough to get the 7's, but you might get 13 ticks over 2 VT's (if you don't screw up) (you will not get 14, obviously, maybe you will get 19 over 3 VT's)

Basically: more hate => more ticks on the long run

And except if you multidot a lot (and even then, if you are good, you could still refresh before the dots finishes), you will be focusing on 1 target, ie: you should not screw up refreshing dots before they expire

---------- Post added 2011-03-08 at 05:15 PM ----------

You break the GCD cap at 34.66% from gear, or 4438 rating. When you reach that, expect the value of haste to start plummeting.

Until then, yes reforge haste 100% of the time if you can.

Ooups forgot about the GCD cap, but for this tier, it is not really an issue

[Siri]

In a multi-dot scenario it might not be worth to refresh the dot because the mob won't live long enough for it to be beneficial.
In those cases the haste plateaus matter.

(getting just above one does matter a bit more than the other points but it's a small bonus)

[Bigwolfe]

In a multi-dot scenario it might not be worth to refresh the dot because the mob won't live long enough for it to be beneficial.
In those cases the haste plateaus matter.

(getting just above one does matter a bit more than the other points but it's a small bonus)

the only fight i can think of that the adds dont live long enough is omni (the green oozes) and chogall (the black oozes). Almost every other fight including those 2 have mobs which are great targets for multi dotting. I even VTed 5-6 worms on normal magmaw.

[Siri]

I wasn't talking about any fight in particular, I was bringing it up for the sake of completion

[Solia]

Please stop linking the soft cap haste values for SP's. It does not concern us.

Reason: when you refresh your dots (before it's finishes), you add the extra time on the dot, without cliping the last tick.
Hence the more haste you will have, the more ticks you will get, over a large number of dots refreshing.

EG: if you have 6 ticks on your VT, and you increase your haste, but not enough to get the 7's, but you might get 13 ticks over 2 VT's (if you don't screw up) (you will not get 14, obviously, maybe you will get 19 over 3 VT's)

Basically: more hate => more ticks on the long run

Yea... I'm pretty this is NOT how dots work. You cannot gain an extra tick through partial ticks, but in fact there isn't even partial ticks, your dot will just end on the 6th tick until you reach the haste plateau for the 7th tick.

Just go and test it out on a target dummy to see if you ever gain a tick after 2,3,4 VT's.

[DomBomb1]

Please stop linking the soft cap haste values for SP's. It does not concern us.

Reason: when you refresh your dots (before it's finishes), you add the extra time on the dot, without cliping the last tick.
Hence the more haste you will have, the more ticks you will get, over a large number of dots refreshing.

The softcaps are useful because they are points at which, because the dot lasts an additional tick, YOU DON'T HAVE TO REFRESH IT AS OFTEN. This saves you GCDs and gives you more mind flays -> more shadow orbs and more shadowfiend. Yes, each little bit of haste makes your dots tick a proportional amount faster, but the saved GCDs are what make the softcaps important.


Edit: removed the irrelevant part of the quote

[Reyn]

Yea... I'm pretty this is NOT how dots work. You cannot gain an extra tick through partial ticks, but in fact there isn't even partial ticks, your dot will just end on the 6th tick until you reach the haste plateau for the 7th tick.

Just go and test it out on a target dummy to see if you ever gain a tick after 2,3,4 VT's.

First, proof check your post. Misspelling is one thing, missing words is another.

Second, you are wrong on how haste works with dots. The poster above you was correct. If you re-apply the dot prior to the last tick the time on the dot is reset. So, if I have a dot that ticks every 2.25 seconds (fully accounting for haste) and I reapply the dot .5 seconds before the last tick, the time on the dot refreshes to full duration and the next tick happens .5 seconds after the reapplication.

You never get "partial" ticks. You either get a full tick or no tick. The trick is to roll the dots so that you never have to wait the entire "startup time" after the initial cast.

Note that the time between ticks might change on the re-application due to trinket procs or other stat changes.

[Veiled]

Simple answer: yes.

You break the GCD cap at 34.66% from gear, or 4438 rating. When you reach that, expect the value of haste to start plummeting.

Until then, yes reforge haste 100% of the time if you can.

^ This. Once you reach 4438 rating you can focus on other stats and not worry so much about haste, but until then it should be a priority.

[stickyjam]

You break the GCD cap at 34.66% from gear, or 4438 rating. When you reach that, expect the value of haste to start plummeting.

Until then, yes reforge haste 100% of the time if you can.

this....

^^

[Upd]

So whats the GCD cap at? 34.66% from gear.. 5% raid buff.. 3% from talent. So is the GCD cap at 42.66% or higher?

[Solia]

First, proof check your post. Misspelling is one thing, missing words is another.

Second, you are wrong on how haste works with dots. The poster above you was correct. If you re-apply the dot prior to the last tick the time on the dot is reset. So, if I have a dot that ticks every 2.25 seconds (fully accounting for haste) and I reapply the dot .5 seconds before the last tick, the time on the dot refreshes to full duration and the next tick happens .5 seconds after the reapplication.

You never get "partial" ticks. You either get a full tick or no tick. The trick is to roll the dots so that you never have to wait the entire "startup time" after the initial cast.

Note that the time between ticks might change on the re-application due to trinket procs or other stat changes.

So are you agreeing with implicationmmo that you actually gain dot ticks with each successive refresh, because that's what he's claiming.

---------- Post added 2011-03-08 at 09:26 PM ----------

So whats the GCD cap at? 34.66% from gear.. 5% raid buff.. 3% from talent. So is the GCD cap at 42.66% or higher?

GCD cap is 50% Haste.

Haste from different sources are multiplied, not added.

50% haste = 1.5 = 1.3466*1.05 (Shadowform)*1.03 (talent)*1.03(DI)

[Deleted]

Ok, so I should reforge ALWAYS to Haste.

But it's weird because SimCraft says that Haste is my worst stat if I get Dark Intent (and I always get it) even worse than Mastery. Should I consider this or ignore it?