Feral bear, threat issues at higher gear level

[lightofdawn]

its hard for any tank no matter the gear to get agro off the bat when theres dps popping cooldowns and unloading on the target(especially aoe)
just taunt off and if vengeance is building up you should have threat in a few sec...otherwise idk

edit: people dont blow cds on aoe shit, was just sayin =\

[Arielle]

Thrash actually comes ahead of Lacerate.

Just sayin'.

[Jaerin]

I'm main tank in my 10-normal runs. Our DPS has learned to hold back cuz my initial threat gain is absolutely horrible. It is for most tanks, but I find with bear it's much more sketchy right now to build initial threat unless I start off with Berserk.

I usually have to start a pull with faerie fire -> taunt -> second faerie fire, mangle, lacerate. Sometimes I'd even do a second taunt just to make sure I'm topped off on threat. Not being hit/exp capped does hurt, but once a fight gets going you usually won't lose threat throughout the fight.

You've just wasted your taunt. Taunt itself gives 0 threat if no one is above you. The only thing your taunt is going to do is hold the mob on your for the first 5 seconds. Which your dps should be hold off anyways. The other issue is if they do pull on you, you don't have your taunt to pull back.

Also as I recall Blizzard is running on the assumption that you do have some kind of misdirect or tricks on the pull.

[Nornai]

Blizzard have stated that Vengeance shouldn't be a necessity for keeping threat.

Though I don't quite see their reasoning there. I play a ret pala and I usually have to HoSalv myself or I'll overthreat. Especially in 5-mans and to a lesser extent in raids. Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but as far as I'm aware, hybrid classes actually do more threat. Both my Fury Warrior and Ret Pala will usually generate stupid amounts of threat from just doing the normal DPS prio.

[Raugnaut]

Thrash actually comes ahead of Lacerate.

Just sayin'.

eh. pure TPS, yes. However, its best to get that first lacerate out there before you Thrash so you can start getting in the free mangles. For instance, with good RNG, you can go Mangle-Lacerate-Thrash(Lacerate Tick)-Mangle, instead of Mangle-Thrash-Lacerate-Lacerate-Mangle. Getting up that single stack of Lacerate>Thrash, Thrash> Second/Third stack for threat.

Now, OT, but, if its PURE mitigation that you want, you spam lacerate, keeping Pulverize up, since Lacerate has a slightly higher crit chance then all other spells, and use Maul on CD as often as possible. This is of course, you are interested ONLY in keeping Mitigation as high as you possibly can on single target.

[ForTehNguyen]

356 here and I'm having a lot of rage problems in 5 man heroics

[Jaerin]

356 here and I'm having a lot of rage problems in 5 man heroics

Yeah I'm finding the whole rage normalization crap that Blizzard said was supposed to be fixed to eliminate the low rage generation due to high avoidance is a crock. I have all kinds of rage issues in 5-mans with 359 gear.

[Raugnaut]

Yeah I'm finding the whole rage normalization crap that Blizzard said was supposed to be fixed to eliminate the low rage generation due to high avoidance is a crock. I have all kinds of rage issues in 5-mans with 359 gear.

Bilzzards main way of trying to "normalize" rage was moving threat regen FROM taking damage, and more into dealing damage. Let me think..

You generate around 10 rage from meleeing. If you crit, thats an extra 5 rage. When you take damage, the amount of rage you generate depends on the % health you take. Less then 5% health- 1 rage. 5-20%, around about there, 5 rage. >20%, 10 rage. (Assumed, this is what I normally see) Dodged Attack- 3 rage. No rage is generated from when your attacks are Dodged/Parried/Missed.

ForTehNguyen, you need to describe what you are doing in more detail. However, here is a few tips-

Do not use Maul on Trash. Maul is very low on the Threat per Rage, and should not be used. If you are out of combat, use Thorns before a pull. Thorns adds 6k threat whenever you are hit. It is a ton. These 2 things will help you a TON when you are speeding through heroics.

As you get better gear, you will take a less % of HP from damage, meaning less rage, and you will dodge more, meaning less rage.

[Arielle]

eh. pure TPS, yes. However, its best to get that first lacerate out there before you Thrash so you can start getting in the free mangles. For instance, with good RNG, you can go Mangle-Lacerate-Thrash(Lacerate Tick)-Mangle, instead of Mangle-Thrash-Lacerate-Lacerate-Mangle. Getting up that single stack of Lacerate>Thrash, Thrash> Second/Third stack for threat.

I was referring to the rotation that people were saying to follow. It's actually a priority system:

IW (Mangle) > Demo Roar > Pulverize Buff > Mangle > 1x Lacerate > Thrash > Lacerate. Usually you end up ditching some Thrash GCDs for Lacerates or Pulverize per cycle to keep the Pulverize buff active.

Now, OT, but, if its PURE mitigation that you want, you spam lacerate, keeping Pulverize up, since Lacerate has a slightly higher crit chance then all other spells, and use Maul on CD as often as possible. This is of course, you are interested ONLY in keeping Mitigation as high as you possibly can on single target.

Technically yes, but you'll never be able to hold threat with that.

[Deleted]

noticed the same, problem for bears is basicly with gear improvement our dodge gets higher (so no incomming damage) and also our mastery (less incomming damage) and as a result we get less vengeance which is based on damage recieved :/
Bad mechanic.

[Rushed]

Guess everyone just ignored my natural progression of raiding post huh.

sadface

[coocoo]

im going to stop you right there and tell you that you are wrong. this is not wotlk anymore, MASTERY is the number one stat for feral tanks hands down. mastery = more absorbs = less damage taken from ALL damaging abilities INCLUDING spells.

errr....
Mastery =
"Savage Defender
Requires Bear Form
Increases the damage absorbed by your Savage Defense ability by 32%. Each point of Mastery increases the absorb by an additional 4%."

which leads us to:

"Savage Defense Passive

Requires Bear Form
Each time you deal a critical strike while in Bear Form, you have a 50% chance to gain Savage Defense, reducing the damage taken from the next physical attack that strikes you by 35% of your attack power."

*next physical attack* does not include spells.

[Sylla]

Initial threat is just as much if a problem as always, I feel sorry for our poor bear with a fury war, retain and moonkin in decent gear. vengeance is meant to fix sustained threat though, if Mage is pulling off you later on, it's either a class problem, or (more likely) you are doing something wrong.

[Arielle]

errr....
Mastery =
"Savage Defender
Requires Bear Form
Increases the damage absorbed by your Savage Defense ability by 32%. Each point of Mastery increases the absorb by an additional 4%."

which leads us to:

"Savage Defense Passive

Requires Bear Form
Each time you deal a critical strike while in Bear Form, you have a 50% chance to gain Savage Defense, reducing the damage taken from the next physical attack that strikes you by 35% of your attack power."

*next physical attack* does not include spells.

It's still the number one secondary stat we can get on our gear without reforging. So his conclusions were technically right even if the basis was incorrect.

[Royalite]

The DPS who are capable of catching you are, by design generally the ones capable of dropping their threat entirely.

WTB threat dump for moonkins.

[iceberg265]

Bears have the worst AoE threat of all the tanks right now, but if you are losing aggro on a boss after the first 20seconds, you are doing something wrong. Check your rotations and stuff.

Mangle on CD, keep at least one stack of lacerate, keep 3 stack pulverize up, thrash, stack lacerate to 3 and maul whenever you have excess rage.

[MildCore]

Even 1 tick into invis drops like 30% of his threat, doesn't need to do a full 3s to drop threat, even just 1s is good enough at that point. Plus is it because on Atremede's is in the air and you're not doing any threat while the mage is probably Scorch running and maintaining pretty good dps?

[axxey]

Blizzard have stated that Vengeance shouldn't be a necessity for keeping threat.

Though I don't quite see their reasoning there. I play a ret pala and I usually have to HoSalv myself or I'll overthreat. Especially in 5-mans and to a lesser extent in raids. Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but as far as I'm aware, hybrid classes actually do more threat. Both my Fury Warrior and Ret Pala will usually generate stupid amounts of threat from just doing the normal DPS prio.

Ret pallies and fury warriors have very little ramp up time for the 10% melee threat buffer, they're the only classes you should really have to worry about at the start of a fight.

If a ranged pull agro big deal, taunt back before it leaves melee range, you're supposed to be on your toes paying attention at the start of a fight anyways.

Sponge gemming may be an issue? I seriously need to royally fuck something up to lose agro single target as an AGI bear, even after nerfing bears have rediculous single target threat.
Maybe your weapon sucks? weapon has a very large impact.

As someone else stated earlier, ranged that can dps on the move during atremedes air phase also have threat dumps available to them. That being said, nothing stops you from taunting back AFTER a ranged pulls agro.

[Deleted]

im going to stop you right there and tell you that you are wrong. this is not wotlk anymore, MASTERY is the number one stat for feral tanks hands down. mastery = more absorbs = less damage taken from ALL damaging abilities INCLUDING spells. dodge = no damage, but ONLY from melee attacks. you cant dodge spells. never should you EVER stack stamina anymore. ever. you want to reforge all of your haste to mastery, every single piece of your gear should have mastery on it, weather it be from reforges from haste or just being a stat on the item prior. your gems should be 20 mastery + 30 stamina for all blue and red slots, and 40 mastery for all yellow slots. as for hit and expertise, obviously don't reforge it off but say a piece has mastery and haste, reforge the haste to expertise first, that is more important than hit to start with. never reforge crit unless there is no mastery such as pieces with crit and lets say hit, then reforge the crit to mastery, your savage defense ability (the thing that lets bears tank in the first place) procs off your crits. your stat priorities are as followed: mastery > crit > expertise > hit > dodge > haste.

i strongly suggest you try this out and i hope it helps.

Cant believe I logged on for this... You my friend are an idiot, TTL (time to live) is top when progressing on heroic modes as he clearly is as it gives your healers the most flexibility and makes damage less spikey. Sure you might take more damage but healers should be at a gear point in heroics that it doesnt matter. With reforging epics and 372s to dodge he should attain 40% dodge or over which obviously helps. Moreover with vengeance having more stamina = more AP so more threat and more SD. SD by the way is awful and it only affects melees as it was intended to mimic block, as is Blood DKs mastery.

[Djuntas]

lol@ Izorish.. damn. But as Jaerin said.. rage issues is huge. I been feral since day 1# TBC.. never been boomkin once, and tanking HC 5 mans now I look like a complete fool to my guild mates at times when tanking the HC daily w/e, while I run with other classes (me dpsing) and its a breeze and I can almost just "let loss" of DPS with not to much care about aggro.