Response to Greg Street's "Progress" Post.

[MrHappy]

You obviously haven't read Greg's post. He said (as I said in my post) what hardcore raiders are or are not thinking, not what the general population is thinking. Here is a quote from his post:

"Let’s consider two extremes. If you complete the raid content very quickly and have Sinestra on farm and everyone has acquired their best in slot items, then you’re probably ready to take a break from raiding. If you worked really hard to get to that point, as many of the current “finished” guilds did, then you’re probably pretty happy about resting until Firelands becomes available."

Speaking for myself and many others within this category, we aren't happy to rest. We don't want to take a break. If we take a break, we might not come back. Ok ok, he said "probably pretty happy" whoopie, he didn't use an absolute statement when making his broad generalization. The fact of the matter is he still made a broad generalization that appears to be incorrect based on available knowledge. Given that he generalized it, he probably believes what he said to be true, which is a bad thing for the community.

ok take the example of Paragon. when they downed Synestra despite how buggy it was. they were pretty happy with how the raid progession toook place and were happy to from from burnouts to 1 raid day a week. and paragon did it b4 1% of wow population even SAW synestra...and i think that its still that case. look @ how many guilds have 1/13 heroic content yet alone 12/12 reg. Having 4.1 with ZA and ZG appeals to - this may shock you - 99% of wow population. This will server as a buffer to all types of players. Hardcores will have something to do to prepare for Firelands and update few BiS and for the rest of us it will help us with GS to continue clear content. on my server the top guild is only 4/13 heroic and im sure that it is close for a vast majority of players.

aside from that you are also making the same generalization mistake you accuse Ghostcrawler making. "Speaking for myself and many others within this category" does the many others are jsut your guildmates can u actually atest to other 50+ guilds feel the same way?

Bottom line is that it is smart to keep firelands till 4.2 because of howmany guilds have yet see the content. and Blizz would rather cater to the majoirty of its subscribers than a dozen of so guilds. If you are bored then you have choice..take a break, roll alts or find another game to play.

[godofslack]

Personally, if this ghostcrawler blog post actually comes into fruition, unlike the "heroics are hard" blog post, I'd be very happy. I've always been a fan of multi-tier progression. If firelands is sufficiently hard there will still be reason to go back and work on heroic bosses from tier 11. That and the 1470 valor off heroics doesn't make it to release.

[ChromWolf]

I guess I'm having trouble taking this thread seriously.

bullseyed, I think the reason people are "trolling" you is that from way up there, you're a little hard to take seriously. I apologize that we uneducated, raid-ignorant masses are messing your game up for you. ;> (It's okay, I'm saying this with a smirk on my face, please read as such. )

But seriously, sarcasm to illustrate the point aside (after all, what is it they say about sarcasm?), the wording that you're using smacks very strongly, especially in your earlier post in this thread, like you're so far ahead in raiding that Blizzard inherently doesn't care about you by virtue of the fact that Blizzard is bothering to care about everyone else---you WANT the new content, and are frustrated at what you see as artificial "gating" to that content. In itself, I'm not sure I have a problem with that argument; artificial gating *is* a little silly, and I am NO WHERE near being classified as a hardcore raider. ....Our guild just tried Throne of the four winds for the first time last night. *shrug* it's a casual guild, it's how we roll.

But the problem is, then you turn around and say, paraphrased, "casuals are wrong for so adamantly demanding new raid content like they did in Wrath, they should work for it." It's worth noting you're using this as an argument towards the "artificial gating is bad" argument, but... it basically also says "Casuals immediately expecting new content is wrong, but it's okay for me." ....That's the part I'm having a hard time taking you seriously on.

You've reigned it in a little bit in your later posts; perhaps because a mod is watching the thread. Reason notwithstanding, I'm glad, and it *looks* like it could still end up being a productive discussion. That's cool in my book. .......But placation aside, it's still there.

The other problem is, there's another side to the "artificial progression is bad" argument which I very much agree with, especially as a casual: I never saw most of SSC, none of TK, and not a peep of the T6 raids at all. I earned my Kil'jaeden achievement something between the Ulduar/AT era. Blizzard decided that large portions of the player base NEVER seeing the content *they* paid for was also bad, and I am VERY glad they decided that. I LOVED downing LK (again, with a casual raid schedule and very sparse signups closer to the end of the expansion, we were just a few weeks before Cata release, and certainly ater 4.0.1 patch, when we finally got a chance to down him). I would have NEVER done it if it weren't for the fact that heroics were giving the emblems I needed to get the gear to be able to do it, and LOTS of ICC farming. But even I thought it was at least a *little* silly to get the previous tier of raid content from farming heroics. It was TERRIBLY convenient as far as being able to see the content, but even to me, a super-casual, it seemed.... I dunno, like cheating.

Bottom line: I think we both agree that artificial gating is, indeed, bad. Given that I found getting T8/T9 gear from heroics emblems a little like cheating, I shudder to think what your opinions are on that specific subject.

But with all your unhappiness, you propose no actual constructive criticism: an alternative.

I think I've the leeway to generalize for the casual playerbase in saying we don't want accessible content off the table. And neither do you, let's just say a representative of the hardcore playerbase, want raids to have artificial gating.

What you haven't done is figured out how we can meet in the middle.

By way of offering this thread some direction away from potential flaming, I'd like to challenge you to offer any ideas you might have. I'm not trying to troll you here, I'm being serious; I think if some good ideas could be presented, something could actually be done about the problem we both see.

So what do you think?

[Herecius]

I think Chromwolf made an excellent post, and I would encourage people to try and be as constructive as possible, if only perhaps to prove my own overly-optimistic and hopeful view that humanity is redeemable and can hold heated discussions without insulting one another. So let's start by no longer calling everybody that disagrees with us (that is, a communal 'us,' as in everybody on both sides and the middle of the discussion) a troll. <3

[Relentless]

One of you people supporting this position, through logic and reason explain why someone else finishing content at a different pace is a threat to you? Explain why you get to finish things at your pace, but no one else gets that luxury. Explain why everyone has to be focused on you instead of everyone getting their own little piece?

There is at least one strong logical argument against my position. I just want one of you to stop facetrolling the keyboard long enough to address it. I want to have an intellectual conversation.

You can't have a proper debate with someone who is being hypocritical in their own stance on the matter. "No one else" gets to finish things at their own pace? "No one else" in this case is millions of other players who you don't speak for. How can you continue to ignore the fact that Blizzard caters to the majority for the sake of their business model and still say you're after intellectual conversation? Your argument boils down to "Why isn't Blizzard doing what I want when clearly that would be best?" when what that really means is "that is what would be best for a tiny fraction of the player base, ignoring what Blizzard, a world-class game design company, thinks is best."

[glitchslol]

Your real motivation is jealousy.

ahahaha this isn't the first time he's said this either. and you claim to want to have an intellectual debate when you whine like a third grader. no new content yet, get over it. this games been great to us and release patches and content at a nice pace. don't give me that i've been farming sinestra for weeks shit because who really cares? STOP farming it then, how hard is it to go hang with some friends on raid nights instead of killing the same internet monsters. once again, i assure you, no one is jealous of you.

[Mossmantle]

Greg's not here, man.

[StendhalSyndrom]

Oh boy someone is going to get a harsh reality check when they step out of the basement and in to the real world ::chuckels:: Oh you thinking the .01% of the WoW community should be catered to...and that even you speak for that group...

[Deleted]

For those who havent realised yet, the OP isnt even close to sinestra... anyone that would dedicate himself to the game to the point of being there would have a brain to understand a couple of things such as:

GC isnt in MMO Champion.
This isnt a official forum
That people who actually reached sinestra is a minority
Ppl in forums are a minority
Hiperventilating over a game isnt healthy

So basically GC is making a "good" job with the game development... some thing such as balance still need some tweaks but other than that he created many concepts of the game itself which keeps the kinda players OP is in the game.

Also OP needs to understand that his ego isnt the center of the universe, because when dev's make a decision they study it first they dont do it to mess around with you... imo what u need OP is a nice answer from bashiok... he would know how to "pleasure" you =)

[Varabently]

I don't think you are in the right place to post this.

[Herecius]

Encouraging people to steer this back towards being constructive, would rather not lock a topic with the potential for some real discussion.

[Mayia]

Not sure what was expected, since TBC and the nerfs for bt/mh/sunwell as well as lots of badge gear we've been seeing the huge decline in hardcore only raiding.

Since alot of people wont see heroic encounters until way after the time they're released blizzard is logicly focusing more time on the casual gamers area's of interest, how do we waste the casual gamers time in a grind while trying to keep it fun?

A lot of hardcore raiders are lifers they'll complain bitterly but if you really like raiding then wow is about the only place you really get a decent raiding feel from and you and them most likely who leave, at least not enough of you to shift blizzards thinking.

If you wanna stop being disappointed by blizz, just leave wow tbh

[Desminn]

i love the pure irony of the OP in numerous ways....but thats besides the point.

OT: i get what you say about wantig the IDEA of TBC back...but it aint gonna happen and i can assure you insulting (becasue you were being out right insulting in your OP) GC in an unoffical, and even to a lesser extent in an offical, forum will get you absolutely no where.

dont take things personally and dont think that blizz is trying to cover up some kind of conspiracy. GC was trying to be helpful and you slam it back in his face. you didnt like what he had to say? ok, your entitled to your opinion. do realize though that he wasnt trying to insult anyone or cover anyones tracks.

also as it has been stated the blanket releasing of content is extremly buggy be happy that you have gotten to do sinestra, you are one of few. grats to you and all that clear world progression content you help blizz find bugs and things wrong with the game so they can continue to bring us and you quality gaming. that however takes time. if you no longer get enjoyment from doing the end game raiding maybe do some other things. pvp is an entirly different aspect of the game. if thats not your cup of tea or you already have done what youd like to do in it then there are still many other options out there and if none of those still suit you maybe something other than wow will do.

ok you dont want to stop on wow and want to keep the momentum going....i hear there are even less glory of the cataclysim raider achievs out there done than sinestra farming. if you are as intellectual as you portray yourself to be than just learn to accept the fact that you will be waiting for raids if your guild is that progressive. dont know what else to tell you if you cant find something in there to be happy with. =\

[Dch48]

Anybody who posts in this thread and thinks that Ghostcrawler will ever see it is delusional in the extreme. Post your response where it will be seen if you want to have any impact. I happen to think GC is a good guy but I disagree with a lot of what he said. Raiding is too hard and is a roadblock for the majority of players at this time. The 10 man content (even on regular mode) especially.

[bullseyed]

Unfortunately, you're not reading what they're saying properly. It isn't that players somehow lose their ability to control themselves when a new raid is released. The problem with releasing raid content the very second it is ready (that being earlier than they would like) is that older raids mostly get abandoned. With the exception of special circumstances that he noted (going back to finish your 4-piece before you get your new set), nearly everyone forgets about the previous tier's raids when new stuff comes out. How many people went back and did Naxx when Ulduar was out? I can guarantee you that significantly fewer people did.

If you had properly read my example, you would have seen how I explained that they're waiting for a certain saturation level with the current raids. They feel that the general population hasn't gotten far enough yet. They're trying to avoid ToC 2.0.

Now, this isn't to say that they are even delaying Firelands. If you had read anything that Herecius had posted, you'd realize that Firelands hasn't been delayed, but instead ZA/ZG and other things are being pushed forwards. Their timeline for releasing content patches seems to have a sweet spot right around 6 months. It has been 3 months and you are complaining that they are withholding content from you. Do you see anything wrong with this?

I think the funniest part of your post is the sheer irony in everything you said. "The existence of new content [on the ptr] does that mean that players "have" to [have it now]. I'd love to have something to look FORWARD to for once, rather than wondering when the grind will [begin again]."

Using WotLK as proof that old raids get abandoned when new ones come out is a dishonest argument. WotLK's progression path was a failed experiment. Some devs have partially admitted to that over time. If you look back at some of Greg's old posts you'll see he blames it on the fact that they never expected to release hard mode gear, which made peoples stats scale too quickly (which did happen).

Go back to TBC. When was Karazhan abandoned? (Tip: it wasn't.) People played Karazhan until the WotLK came out. Granted, to an extent that too was a failure. The steep of the slope was slightly too high. They were so close to getting it right. Some people got promoted on the WoW team and things were taken in a different direction "for the sake of the player" that ended up hurting the player.

Yeah, getting keyed for raids sucked, especially for recruitment. But it made sense and in an odd way, worked. If the time commitment for a raid had been lower back then (less trash) it would have been OK because people would have had time to go clear SSC and TK to get people keyed for BT and MH.

Since you focused so heavily on WotLK, you probably have no idea what I'm talking about because you were too young to play back then.

[Muely]

give up bullseyed you aren't doing a good job convincing anybody

EDIT
I also think its humerous that you would like Blizzard to cater to such a small % of their consumer base. That request is just down right retarded, if you want a challenge go join the army or something and actually accomplish something.

[bullseyed]

Agreed, I just don't think it fits into Blizzard's business model to release all the content at once. They're happier doing it in bits and pieces, but unfortunately, it turns progression into what it is today. I remember being the third guild on our server into Hyjal/BT, and absolutely thrilled to be so. I think it started going sour as soon as the focus went from "we want to design interesting and challenging content" to "we want everyone to see our pretty dungeons." The irony was that everyone could eventually see it all, but they had to wait until gear levels increased, or the place was nerfed severely.

You really aren't going to get anywhere here though. Half of the posters don't really understand what you're trying to say, and the other half doesn't even want to. It's not as if we wish hard enough, we'll have TBC back. :P

I remember the days my guild server first'd Kael and Vashj. We got the last fragment or orb or whatever right at the end of raid, like 11:50 server. Everyone else went to bed celebrating. I went to do the RP section of the keying quest, got my key and went into BT solo, for no other reason than to screenshot being the first person on my server to ever zone into BT. It had been sitting there locked up for months and I finally was able to kick in the door. It was an accomplishment. Now that "distinction" goes to whoever logs into the server first on patch day. So sad.

If Blizzard doesn't listen, another developer will. Hopefully anyway. I'm sure there are employees of other firms lurking on this forum daily. I'm sure some of our readers today will be developers tomorrow. Afterall, thats how EQ (essentially) created WoW.

But yeah, the Grapes of Wrath outnumber the loyal Blizzard fans now. Unfortunately they make sour whine.

[Muely]

So take your monthly subscriptions elsewhere, we wont miss you. Goodbye sweet prince.

[Herecius]

But yeah, the Grapes of Wrath outnumber the loyal Blizzard fans now. Unfortunately they make sour whine.

I have to ask, what makes you a more loyal fan to Blizzard than any other player who enjoys their games? I, for example, disagree with you and certainly do not have Sinestra on farm, but I'd consider myself a loyal Blizzard fan. I've been playing their games for as long as I've been capable of playing games, it seems like.

In any case, there just isn't the support for that kind of gating and attunement anymore, I'm afraid that all you're doing is crying for a system that is dead and outdated. WoW isn't going to have that anymore. The best you can do is either offer an alternative solution, deal with what is given to you by Blizzard... or leave for that other developer that offers you what you want. And really, please, try to be more constructive. Have a look at Chromedog's post, that was an earnest attempt at dialogue.

[Herecius]

/snip big Aestu post

You're also missing the point of much of Chromedog's post; he was asking the OP if there was a potential middle ground for this, if there was some solution that had not yet been brought up.

We either have the TBC model - which favors those that raid from the very beginning, and raid all the time - or we have the tiered badge/valor/justice point model, which favors those who might just start raiding at the 3rd raiding tier of the expansion because they didn't start playing at the same time others did. What is the middle ground that we can have here? The first model favors a minority of the playerbase, and the second model is considerably more friendly to the vast majority of the playerbase, so from a purely business standpoint, the second model makes the most sense, but I still ask, is there a middle ground, some model we haven't discussed yet?