Serious question about enhance dps

[Gistwiki]

Waiting for statistically valid evidence that Enhancement is much better in comparison to everyone else in 346s than they are in 372s.

[gynshon]

Waiting for statistically valid evidence that Enhancement is much better in comparison to everyone else in 346s than they are in 372s.

Simcraft it. Put in 346 gear for every class and simcraft it out. Or you could just have had your eyes open when raiding and see where we stood in 346 gear compared to where we are now in 372 (assuming you are in 372) and notice that when your guildmates get the upgrades, their dps skyrockets, while ours remains a smaller increase.

[Endus]

People like to know that they can be top of the DPS.

My point, at least partially, is that this attitude is wrongheaded and unhelpful. That's not seeking class balance, that's seeking a class imbalance in your favor. I'd rather see Blizzard balance the game well. We're not there yet, but we're closer than we probably ever have been, for PvE purposes at least. Because everyone has different mechanics, there will always be a spread of some kind, so the issue of balance isn't to eliminate the spread, but merely to narrow it as much as possible. Which means pruning those who are too high as much as buffing those who are too low. Being in the middle of the spread isn't a problem, as long as we're high enough that we're a solid contribution.

And someone is going to be on the bottom of the spread, even in a well-balanced game. Being on or near the bottom is irrelevant, what matters is how much we're below.

And right now, I see two classes below us which I'd say need a boost, and three classes well above us that need a nerf. If the spread is from 26k-27.5k, and we're at 26.5k roughly, then the class balance is fine.

On the scaling issues. Your comment to LyskaWF was this "I'm not convinced this is remotely true" when he said that enhancement doesn't scale. Maybe I should put it differently, other classes scale better than us. From a mathematical point of view, we don't scale nearly as effectively as other classes. We are way above everyone else in 333/346, near the top in 359 and near the bottom in 372. That shows poor scaling. Unless bliz tweak us or add a "+ Enhancement attack power xxx" to weapons, etc, we will be worse off with the next level of gear. They have not got the coefficients right yet when it comes to Enh shamans.

They definitely don't have the coefficients "right", but with every content patch, they can tweak coefficients and such. They've already said they'll be changing hit rating each major content patch, for everyone, to try and prevent gear creep like happened in WotLK. That may not be enough to mitigate the issue, but it's a new factor, and I want to see how it affects things before jumping off the rails.

My comments to LyskaWF was mostly due to the assumption that "bad scaling = broken". It doesn't, necessarily. What matters isn't how well we scale, but where we scale to. If we start at 15k and scale to 26k, and another class starts at 10k and scales to 25.5k, then we scale "worse" but we're still strong DPS. If anything, this would mean we need to be nerfed slightly, such that our coefficients get buffed but at a greater loss of base damage. The biggest issue in high-end content for Enhancement is the lack of weapons, IMO. If heroic trash drops existed, that would go a long way to solving that.

Our scaling is a shallower climb, but whether that's a problem is based on the height it achieves, not how shallow a climb it is. And while that MIGHT lead to problems in 4.2, I'd rather wait until we have patch details for 4.2 before saying we're broken. We can definitely bring it up to Blizzard in their forums to make sure they are aware of the potential issue, but it's a problem that isn't relevant yet.

I'm not saying "we're fine as we are", I'm just trying to keep the debate on track with reality.

[Gistwiki]

Simcraft it. Put in 346 gear for every class and simcraft it out. Or you could just have had your eyes open when raiding and see where we stood in 346 gear compared to where we are now in 372 (assuming you are in 372) and notice that when your guildmates get the upgrades, their dps skyrockets, while ours remains a smaller increase.

You're asking me to prove that part your argument for you in the first sentence of the quote. I'll leave the burden of proof with you.

Definitely didn't notice what you're trying to imply with the remainder of your post. If anything, my dps is the one that has gotten the bigger boost from gear.

[Gray_Matter]

My point, at least partially, is that this attitude is wrongheaded and unhelpful. That's not seeking class balance, that's seeking a class imbalance in your favor.

I didn't say that we must be top of the DPS, but rather that we "can". In other words, we should have the ability, for a good player, in 372, to be top of the DPS with other equally geared people if we play well. From what I understand, that is not possible at the moment.

I'd rather see Blizzard balance the game well. We're not there yet, but we're closer than we probably ever have been, for PvE purposes at least. Because everyone has different mechanics, there will always be a spread of some kind, so the issue of balance isn't to eliminate the spread, but merely to narrow it as much as possible. Which means pruning those who are too high as much as buffing those who are too low. Being in the middle of the spread isn't a problem, as long as we're high enough that we're a solid contribution.

That is all I want too. IMHO, we are lacking in a lot of areas that make it impossible for us, at top end gear, to get even close to the top of the DPS meters. AOE, burst, movement and now, at top end, even single target DPS are big limitations. The searing mechanic is not good for any multi-target fight. Those are very real flaws. Presently, the high starting base that we had in cata is masking some of those real problems.

And someone is going to be on the bottom of the spread, even in a well-balanced game. Being on or near the bottom is irrelevant, what matters is how much we're below.

And right now, I see two classes below us which I'd say need a boost, and three classes well above us that need a nerf. If the spread is from 26k-27.5k, and we're at 26.5k roughly, then the class balance is fine.

If the gap is small enough that we can work around it then I am happy. I would also like to see a few more fights that don't favour ranged so much.

They definitely don't have the coefficients "right", but with every content patch, they can tweak coefficients and such. They've already said they'll be changing hit rating each major content patch, for everyone, to try and prevent gear creep like happened in WotLK. That may not be enough to mitigate the issue, but it's a new factor, and I want to see how it affects things before jumping off the rails.

From my experience, they don't tweak things for us as much as they should. I still remember at the end of wrath there were reams of complaints and a whole chunk of responses saying wait until cata. Hot fixes for the other classes and nothing for enh. We had a whole month of being abysmal before the cata launch.

Our scaling is a shallower climb, but whether that's a problem is based on the height it achieves, not how shallow a climb it is. And while that MIGHT lead to problems in 4.2, I'd rather wait until we have patch details for 4.2 before saying we're broken.

The problem with a shallower climb is that they always have to fix us and typically, because we have a lower representation, they fix us last, if at all (see end of wrath). They may sound pessimistic, but it is my experience with enh.

---------- Post added 2011-03-22 at 03:41 PM ----------

Definitely didn't notice what you're trying to imply with the remainder of your post. If anything, my dps is the one that has gotten the bigger boost from gear.

Maybe, just possibly, you have gotten better while you have geared up.

[koimagheul]

They've already said they'll be changing hit rating each major content patch, for everyone, to try and prevent gear creep like happened in WotLK. That may not be enough to mitigate the issue, but it's a new factor, and I want to see how it affects things before jumping off the rails.

I had forgotten about this but... the thing is we already are among the most demanding specs in terms of ratings.

[LyskaWF]

I also know your post said relative dps but that doesn't matter one bit since nobody is going to compare dps like that. If you're in a raid doing 24k dps with someone else doing 23k and you're comparing dps are you really going to say you did 4.35% more dps? I highly doubt it...you're obviously free to do so but don't expect anyone else to do that.

Of course you don't "have" to make that comparison. Scientific researchers pushing drugs to clinical trials also don't "have" to make certain statistical analysis; but that doesn't mean that their results and data analysis are valid without them. If you want to exclude those types of comparisons you are admitting that you see a bigger difference between 20,000 and 21,001 than 1,000 and 2,000. I hope that if you've gone through middle school already you can tell why that is silly when you are talking about anything other than absolute value.

[gynshon]

You're asking me to prove that part your argument for you in the first sentence of the quote. I'll leave the burden of proof with you.

Definitely didn't notice what you're trying to imply with the remainder of your post. If anything, my dps is the one that has gotten the bigger boost from gear.

/sigh

This is about Enhancement, you are resto/elemental. Secondly, your guild is 3/13, so you haven't even scratched the surface of 372 gear upgrades for all the other classes versus other enhance shamans. Looking at recent reports, you bring Raeki some of the time, and he/she is 350 ilvl equipped, not specced correctly, and I won't comment on skills as I am not going to go through the logs extensively. I will say that her dmg output seems low for those fights as compared to previous logs of other enhance shamans.

Just trust the enhancement shamans that have been raiding this content from day 1 and progressed into downing all the heroics. This isn't an elitist request, it is an experienced request because most of us that are saying we do not scale adequately, have seen evidence of this through all of our raids. As 372 becomes readily available, our increase in dps is by a smaller margin compared to others.

[wordup]

it boggles me that you're getting honest reports from 372 geared Enh. Shaman that are 12 and 13/13 heroic that we aren't scaling well yet still can't accept that there is a problem. If you want to live in your dream world that you're the special enhancement snowflake while progressing, you're welcome to it; but we've done it before, I've explained in detail what we lack in my last post. Trust us.

[ofcursenot]

Enhancement doesn't scale. At all. You will do fantastic DPS for your gear in 346, decent in 359, and garbage in 372.

That is actually true.
You can check this out:
http://stateofdps.com/index.php?data...s=200&spec=dps

These are the Top 200 WoL parses for Heroic Encounters.
Go to adjusted totals (without Halfus)
Scroll Down.

Worst DPS Class (raid Spec): Ele and Enhancer
And no, i wont compare it to other hybrid dps classes now. Its no QQ thread :>

To actually sum it up to one Statement:

Enhancement doesn't scale. At all. You will do fantastic DPS for your gear in 346, decent in 359, and garbage in 372.

[Endus]

I didn't say that we must be top of the DPS, but rather that we "can". In other words, we should have the ability, for a good player, in 372, to be top of the DPS with other equally geared people if we play well. From what I understand, that is not possible at the moment.

Again, the attitude is wrongheaded and unhelpful.

Unless the balance is exactly perfect (and it mathematically can't be, since classes don't work exactly the same nor are all boss fights identical), some class WILL be higher on the theoretical DPS charts than others. Assuming equal gear and skill, that class will be marginally higher on the DPS charts.

You're actually arguing that you won't be happy until Enhancement is the most overpowered spec in the game. That's why the attitude is wrongheaded and unhelpful.

I don't care if I'm dead last in my guild, as long as my performance was solid and I'm within 1k or so DPS from the top. I'm not trying to say there isn't room for improvement, I'm just trying to keep expectations within reason.

I would also like to see a few more fights that don't favour ranged so much.

Honestly, maybe it's that I'm Elemental, but I don't really see this. There are a lot of boss mechanics that target ranged players, and movement is a bigger deal to ranged, since our core DPS usually involves abilities with cast timers; melee don't lose DPS unless they have to run out of melee range or the boss moves faster than they can. That happens, sure, but every time ranged move, they're potentially losing DPS.

I'm not raiding as Enhancement now, but I'd been raiding as Enhancement from TBC right up to the Shattering. There's always been this "harder for melee than ranged" attitude, and it's been mostly unwarranted, IMO. Everyone's moving, everyone's dodging massive damage. Positioning is adjusted more often for melee, but they're more ABLE to adjust position without loss of DPS.

[Radux]

I'm not raiding as Enhancement now, but I'd been raiding as Enhancement from TBC right up to the Shattering. There's always been this "harder for melee than ranged" attitude, and it's been mostly unwarranted, IMO. Everyone's moving, everyone's dodging massive damage. Positioning is adjusted more often for melee, but they're more ABLE to adjust position without loss of DPS.

While I do agree with almost everything, you've got to remember where this came from: TBC. It was uncanny how many bosses had some sort of cleave that required melee to run out of. My guild Rogue's bitched constantly. Actually it was a running joke among people to give our Enhancement Shaman a hard time (he was the only one and many of us knew him IRL) because he died all the time from them.

'FightFightFight -- Oh I died + Ahnk -- FightFightFight -- Oh I died + Brez -- FightFightFight -- Oh I died'

Unfortunately everyone will always have something to complain about. The stereotype of things being harder for melee should have died in TBC since those mechanics aren't really happening anymore.

[Gistwiki]

/sigh

This is about Enhancement, you are resto/elemental. Secondly, your guild is 3/13, so you haven't even scratched the surface of 372 gear upgrades for all the other classes versus other enhance shamans. Looking at recent reports, you bring Raeki some of the time, and he/she is 350 ilvl equipped, not specced correctly, and I won't comment on skills as I am not going to go through the logs extensively. I will say that her dmg output seems low for those fights as compared to previous logs of other enhance shamans.

Just trust the enhancement shamans that have been raiding this content from day 1 and progressed into downing all the heroics. This isn't an elitist request, it is an experienced request because most of us that are saying we do not scale adequately, have seen evidence of this through all of our raids. As 372 becomes readily available, our increase in dps is by a smaller margin compared to others.

Raeki's someone who just main switched within the past 2 weeks and is still learning how to play the class/spec (not that they were terribly good at their old main either >.>) *shrug*

Is it wrong that I want something more than your word for it that Enhancement doesn't scale well?

[Endus]

While I do agree with almost everything, you've got to remember where this came from: TBC. It was uncanny how many bosses had some sort of cleave that required melee to run out of. My guild Rogue's bitched constantly. Actually it was a running joke among people to give our Enhancement Shaman a hard time (he was the only one and many of us knew him IRL) because he died all the time from them.

And in WotLK, especially early, there were a lot of those AoE effects that could insta-gib an Enhancement shaman but no other melee, since we lacked any mitigation abilities or enough health to survive it. There were definitely times I ate an AoE the other melee ate, and I was the only guy that died. That's an issue that was resolved, though, and it wasn't really a "melee vs ranged" issue, it was a "why does my Enhancement shaman have less hp than a Fire mage" issue.

[LyskaWF]

I'm not raiding as Enhancement now, but I'd been raiding as Enhancement from TBC right up to the Shattering. There's always been this "harder for melee than ranged" attitude, and it's been mostly unwarranted, IMO. Everyone's moving, everyone's dodging massive damage. Positioning is adjusted more often for melee, but they're more ABLE to adjust position without loss of DPS.

The difference between being melee and ranged is that typically ranged can get in one place and be fine for the duration of the fight. Think about Saurfang.. sure they can get raped if they are too close to someone else, but if they are set up correctly there's nothing to worry about. The same goes for p1 firefighter and various other fights. Some times melee can avoid problems by positioning, but there are many times where situations change because a tank needs to adjust something (doesn't affect ranged) or an ability does more damage or the damage happens sooner to melee. I don't think it's that bad in this expansion, but it definitely used to be the case.

[Endus]

The difference between being melee and ranged is that typically ranged can get in one place and be fine for the duration of the fight.

I'm sorry, but you haven't been playing a ranged character if you think that. I can't think of a single fight in the current raid tier that even approaches that. The closest is Algaloth in BH, and he's that way for everyone. Even in TBC, those fights were few and far between, and there were just as many where the melee didn't have to move much.

Think about Saurfang.. sure they can get raped if they are too close to someone else, but if they are set up correctly there's nothing to worry about. The same goes for p1 firefighter and various other fights.

On Saurfang, melee NEVER have to move, or even adjust position, whereas ranged might have to adjust if they're kiting the adds. That was less of an issue later on, but as someone who was clearing heroic mode Saurfang well before the buff every hit 30%, it was necessary early on. I was Enhancement and my DPS on Saurfang was amazing precisely because I could tunnel the boss and ignore everything else. I swapped to Elemental after the Shattering, and while I didn't have to move, that was a combination of slows, knockback, and huge DPS numbers that we had by that time.

On P1 Firefighter, again, melee had to duck out for the point-blank AoE, but that's only P1. P2, melee sit and tunnel while ranged kite around, basically. P3 is a mess, and P4 is crazy for everyone.

It's the same for the rest of the content. Ranged are NOT having an easier time, and haven't since TBC.

Some times melee can avoid problems by positioning, but there are many times where situations change because a tank needs to adjust something (doesn't affect ranged) or an ability does more damage or the damage happens sooner to melee. I don't think it's that bad in this expansion, but it definitely used to be the case.

If the tank is adjusting the boss, any melee who is paying attention loses 0 DPS. Your abilities don't have cast timers, and unless the boss is moving faster than you can keep up, there's no DPS loss. I remember fights like Grobbulus, where he was being kited constantly by the tank, and ranged didn't really have it easier than melee. The biggest factor was dropping clouds properly which was an equal pain for everyone. If you stood off to the side as melee, you could kite alongside Grobb without standing in his cloud puddles or losing DPS as you move.

Meanwhile, ranged casters are almost always losing DPS while moving. I get a single GCD if I have a Fulmination charged up or Flame Shock/Searing Totem needs refreshing anyway, and after that I'm losing DPS for any movement at all. I'm not trying to say Ranged have it worse, but it is by no means a Ranged-friendly game right now.

[Hustle8]

Enhancement doesn't scale. At all. You will do fantastic DPS for your gear in 346, decent in 359, and garbage in 372. If you're in a normal mode guild or pug a lot, enhancement is fantastic. If you're in a heroic mode guild (which I'm assuming you're not based on this post), I'd go resto as it is pretty decent. Also, luck of the draw has absolutely no impact on your dps relative to other people in your five man who also have the buff.

This is just plain wrong. Our enhance shaman in full 359 and a few 372 pieces blows up the meters. Either you, or enh shamans you play with just don't know how to play.

[gynshon]

Raeki's someone who just main switched within the past 2 weeks and is still learning how to play the class/spec (not that they were terribly good at their old main either >.>) *shrug*

Is it wrong that I want something more than your word for it that Enhancement doesn't scale well?

As I posted, along with several others, anyone that has been doing more than 3 heroic modes know what we are talking about with scaling. You can go back and try to look at old parses, but that only tells part of the story as well as you would have to know from a snapshot wise what people's gear was like. We are telling you what we have seen since raiding as enhancement from start of progression. Well mostly, I have a feral druid that I started Cata with in full 359, then switched to enhance.

Why are we talking about TBC and Wrath? That content doesn't matter. Look at content that matters now.

Magmaw - Favors melee.
Omnotron - Favors Ranged.
Maloriak - Even.
Atramedes - Favors ranged from Air phase factor alone.
Chimaeron - Pretty even. Ranged have a slight advantage in p2.
Nefarian - Favors Ranged.
Halfus - Even.
Drakes - Melee.
Ascendant - Ranged.
Chogall - Ranged.
Conclave - Ranged
Al Akir - Even.

This is how I see things. Can debate the finer points and sway me in another direction, but this how I see the current content and who it favors:

Melee: 2 fights.
Ranged: 6 fights.
Even: 4 fights.

---------- Post added 2011-03-22 at 11:18 AM ----------

This is just plain wrong. Our enhance shaman in full 359 and a few 372 pieces blows up the meters. Either you, or enh shamans you play with just don't know how to play.

Name of the guild and shaman? It could be that he is good, and your guild isn't. Or it could be that he has all upgraded gear, while your guildmates are lagging behind with less gear.

[LyskaWF]

This is just plain wrong. Our enhance shaman in full 359 and a few 372 pieces blows up the meters. Either you, or enh shamans you play with just don't know how to play.

Actually, I do. The fact that that he does well on the meters means your pure classes or classes that are in good shape right now don't know what they're doing. Furthermore, what you posted doesn't in any way contradict what I posted. Thanks.

---------- Post added 2011-03-22 at 06:27 PM ----------

I'm sorry, but you haven't been playing a ranged character if you think that. I can't think of a single fight in the current raid tier that even approaches that. The closest is Algaloth in BH, and he's that way for everyone. Even in TBC, those fights were few and far between, and there were just as many where the melee didn't have to move much.


On Saurfang, melee NEVER have to move, or even adjust position, whereas ranged might have to adjust if they're kiting the adds. That was less of an issue later on, but as someone who was clearing heroic mode Saurfang well before the buff every hit 30%, it was necessary early on. I was Enhancement and my DPS on Saurfang was amazing precisely because I could tunnel the boss and ignore everything else. I swapped to Elemental after the Shattering, and while I didn't have to move, that was a combination of slows, knockback, and huge DPS numbers that we had by that time.

On P1 Firefighter, again, melee had to duck out for the point-blank AoE, but that's only P1. P2, melee sit and tunnel while ranged kite around, basically. P3 is a mess, and P4 is crazy for everyone.

It's the same for the rest of the content. Ranged are NOT having an easier time, and haven't since TBC.



If the tank is adjusting the boss, any melee who is paying attention loses 0 DPS. Your abilities don't have cast timers, and unless the boss is moving faster than you can keep up, there's no DPS loss. I remember fights like Grobbulus, where he was being kited constantly by the tank, and ranged didn't really have it easier than melee. The biggest factor was dropping clouds properly which was an equal pain for everyone. If you stood off to the side as melee, you could kite alongside Grobb without standing in his cloud puddles or losing DPS as you move.

Meanwhile, ranged casters are almost always losing DPS while moving. I get a single GCD if I have a Fulmination charged up or Flame Shock/Searing Totem needs refreshing anyway, and after that I'm losing DPS for any movement at all. I'm not trying to say Ranged have it worse, but it is by no means a Ranged-friendly game right now.

I never compared melee and ranged on the same fight/phases. If I were going to, you could throw Saurfang at me (like you did) and say that melee was completely mindless. The point remains that you can avoid/deal with many mechanics simply by picking the correct spot to stand in as ranged. Think about Halfus or Maloriak. Also, I already conceded in my post that it's not that bad this tier.

[Endus]

The point remains that you can avoid/deal with many mechanics simply by picking the correct spot to stand in as ranged. Think about Halfus or Maloriak.

On halfus, you've got to duck out of fireballs occasionally, unless you like letting your healers make up for your mistakes. Melee don't have to move for anything other than fireballs either; the two AoEs he has hit everyone (shadow nova shouldn't hit ANYONE, though).

Maloriak, no. You need to move between red and blue phases. I suppose if you pick a spot and all the OTHER ranged and healers move, you could get away with not moving, but ranged in general need to scatter for blue phase and collapse for red. And that's just the normal mechanics.