[PvP] More pressure as Unholy?

[solvexx]

Explain how UH puts out more pressure when Frost's crits are in the 16-25k mark, and UHs are like 5k lol.

Cheers for any help.

[Tripz]

ive had stray death coils hit for alot, plus we have a pet that goes beast mode

[solvexx]

Looking more for specific numbers/mechanics.

Cheers for the input though.

[Deleted]

Unholy puts out more pressure because of a number of factors -

*Easier application of Necrotic Strike. It has the same rune cost as Scourge Strike so you don't need to mess up your rune cycles to use it. Unholy can spam NS like no other spec can, due to frost and blood runes being converted to death.

*High, constant damage output, from two individual sources; you and your ghoul. Even if you're being kited, your ghoul may still be munching away and his damage (especially under Dark Transformation) should not be under-estimated.

*More reliable control than frost. Ghoul stun is easier to use than Hungering Cold and doesn't break on damage. Being able to focus leap & ghoul stun a healer on the other side of the arena, rather than running all the way to them to Hungering Cold, is simply awesome.

*Non-stop AoE snares thanks to Desecration. More reliable than Chilblains + Howling Blast glyph since frost has no disease protection. Frost fever dispelled = no Chilblains. Desecration more reliable than Chains of Ice spam for the same reason.

*Harder to kite thanks to Death's Advance.

*Less runic power cost on Death Coil, plus Sudden Doom; Lichborne healing is improved by default.

I could go on...I'm not exactly a PvP master. I rarely arena, just the occasional 5 wins for points, and most of the time don't even have a PvP spec. I can see there being some team set ups where the extra burst of frost may be enough to support it. However, from my experience and from watching some DK arena videos, it's my opinion that unholy just has so much more to offer.

[Deleted]

Both have there place, Frost is burst dmg. Unholy is constaint dmg.

I play with a unholy DK in 2s, and his dmg is insane, and that he can multidot keeps there healer constantly healing.

[SoulPoetry]

unholy pressure comes from building necro strikes while you CC the healer with strang/ghoul stun/partner's CC. that along with auto Desecration and Death's Advance means you're gonna have a high uptime on your target, while Frost has to keep applying Chillbains = less OB, and is slowable.

[Roose]

I am extremely excited about being able to put more pressure on (than before) as frost in 4.1 because the rune changes will make it closer to UH's system. Death runes are awesome! More so for pvp than pve. When an UH has 4 death runes up they can stack NSs to their heart's content and that is some of the best pressure in game. They can also heal themselves very easily with DSs and not sacrifice nearly as much damage as frost.

The buffs will put frost in a competitive spot with UH, but I still think that most DKs that have been playing UH will stay because UH does put up such great pressure.

[Deleted]

I am extremely excited about being able to put more pressure on (than before) as frost in 4.1 because the rune changes will make it closer to UH's system. Death runes are awesome! More so for pvp than pve. When an UH has 4 death runes up they can stack NSs to their heart's content and that is some of the best pressure in game. They can also heal themselves very easily with DSs and not sacrifice nearly as much damage as frost.

The buffs will put frost in a competitive spot with UH, but I still think that most DKs that have been playing UH will stay because UH does put up such great pressure.

Yeah, frost will be in a much better position with the patch, lining up three Obliterates back to back with a Strangulate on the healer and Pillar of Frost up will be pretty insane pressure and frost can safely spec for Hand of Doom in blood for a one minute CD on Strangulate, without sacrificing too much from sub-speccing into unholy. That'll make it line up nicely with PoF and I can see it being possible to score a quick kill this way, depending on your team set up (timing it with Throw Down/Colossus Smash burst from a Warrior and you've got some scary, scary damage, for instance).

Still I think I'll prefer unholy. Sadly wont be able to test it out since I'm quitting temporarily soon due to RL reasons, but when I return I'm gonna give it a whirl for laughs with my mate's recently dinged warrior. He should have it geared by the time I return and we have a decently geared holy pala willing to join us.

[tjkiler]

*More reliable control than frost. Ghoul stun is easier to use than Hungering Cold and doesn't break on damage. Being able to focus leap & ghoul stun a healer on the other side of the arena, rather than running all the way to them to Hungering Cold, is simply awesome.
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I kinda have to disagree on this one, the ghoul stun is kinda unreliable cuz ya rly need to spam it or ya need to put claw off auto cast which kinda gimps the damage.

The contral ya can do whit a good timed healer death grip into an Hungering cold followed whit a silence. is more reliable then the ghoul stun.

[Deleted]

I kinda have to disagree on this one, the ghoul stun is kinda unreliable cuz ya rly need to spam it or ya need to put claw off auto cast which kinda gimps the damage.

The contral ya can do whit a good timed healer death grip into an Hungering cold followed whit a silence. is more reliable then the ghoul stun.

I never have Claw on auto cast, not in PvP. I have it macro'd to SS and NS so that it's used every possible opportunity on my kill target, but I also have a seperate NS bind that doesn't include Claw for times when I know I need to focus ghoul stun soon. I then swap to using that over my usual macro, so my ghoul can pool energy and can leap & stun when needed. Different play styles I guess, but I just find it a little problematic to keep Claw on auto since the ghoul just blows all it's energy like you described. It's easy to manage your ghouls resource if you do it right.

Also, I personally couldn't stand saving Grips just to land a successful Hungering Cold, especially in threes where it's needed for peels/clutch interrupts more often than not. Maybe that's just the frost play style, I couldn't say; I've not played frost in arena to any degree of seriousness.

[Soundmantom]

I have lived and loved both for a long time in pvp. Unholy is more consistent damage and much more of an annoyance for casters and healers. The main culprit behind this has been convering blood runes.

Next patch i really think frost will be much more viable for a couple reasons.

1.With out casting blood strike twice to get death runes, we will be able to consistently spam necrotic strike more. (because of this i think my pvp spec will include desecration as frost)

2. If (and when) we get kited, frost will now have four runes to spam our , soon to be even more powerful, howling blast. No more having to convert blood runes. ATM mine hits for about 6-7k on a good pvp geared person. With the 20% buff to our main target, we still will be able to dps from range decently. No where near well as in melee, but decently.

3. Desecration plus chillblains, plus chains of ice, there is no excuse for every thing red, not to be perma slowed. Kiting will not be as bad for us.

4. 2 more death runes= more chains of ice. The immobilization will be more available as a gap closer with the extra runes.

5. Frost stike will hit harder, so constant RP dumps when in melee range and bursts will be more effective.

6.With 2 death runes, unleashing 3 obliterates, or 6 with ERW for a good burst down will be available with out ramp up.

7. I personally like hungering cold over gnaw any day. The fact that it hits multiple targets is much more useful for pvp IMO. It takes pets out of the game for a few seconds even if your target trinkets. If its 3v3 or 5v5 even if it takes 2 or more player out of the game for even a second or two, i find that as more useful than a single target stun. Although ghoul pressure is quite useful.

I think with all of this, Frost will have more slowing ability, the same amount of necrotic strike pressure, more burst, and Higher consistent damamge (as our physical damage will be higher than unholy and FS will hit harder than DC). The ghoul is great and incredibly useful. AMZ is clutch in some games, but i am seeing ghouls be cced more and more in arenas and in BG's and The numbers of on target dps is greater for frost, at least from my playing.

P.S. i have been told by many a warrior and shaman, that being perma chained is the most annoying thing they encounter.

[Roose]

I am with you on that Soundman. Using BS sucks in pve and in pvp it was just a slap in their face as well as ours. No more chasing that healer with 2 blood runes laughing at you.

[Gerian]

As frost your burst occurs every minute whereas unholy's full potential only occurs every 3 minutes (gargoyle, and unholy frenzy if you aren't using it to cover polymorph). In terms of 'pressure' that is far superior to what unholy has to offer, at least in my experience. You will burn through the enemy defensive cooldowns quicker as frost simply because you're going full fledged ass-rape every minute. On top of that, 9 times out of 10 your ghoul is tunneled/cc'd/sucking up healer mana just so you can maintain your baseline damage as unholy. Prior to cata our pet was great for keeping healers in combat and ghoul stun, but since they make up such a large portion of our damage your pet almost always has to be sitting on your kill target otherwise you're sacrificing a lot of output. Just my 2c