Call to Arms = Math Fail!

[Deleted]

This would be a 1% drop chance. Sounds pretty low until you realize many players run over 100 heroics per expansion. With a 1% drop chance this means you would average over 1 mount per expansion

For someone complaining about math fail, it would have been nice to see you get the probability maths right. If you run 100 heroics then that's a 1-(0.99^100)= 63% chance of getting a mount. Probability is not additive.

[captin hero]

take it as this from someoen who tanks and heals in heroics, i run one heroic daily with my group of friends it consists of me (Hpaly/tank) a warrior (tank/dps) a shammy (heals/dps) a pally (dps/ret) and a lock. What does that say to you if three tanks 2 healers are runnign groups togeather....

Pug heroics are awful, the dps are normaly bads and either break CC or don't know what the fuck CC is, Pug tanks are normaly baddies like a dps DK in blood spec with fuck all for mitigation jsut trying to get hsi instant que. Or the best one when i pug heal i get the blame as soon as a wipe happens and it's normaly the bad dps that is standing in a fire with aggro from a target that was suposed to be the CC target.

So yea heroics are fucking awful the people pugging heroics are total bads, this may give me some insentive to go and do a pug heroic but i highly doubt it andif i need a heroic on my DPS my friends carry me because we swap around and do that sorta shit cuz it's allways a heroic that gets finished and it's fun.

Only way blizzard will fix heroics is add your averige IQ to the ilvl requirements, that will hopefully weed out all the dumb shits and make me want to pug heroics again

in the same boat, as a good player if i can't fill 3/5 with ppl i know its just not worth it to heroic. you can't even vote kick bads anymore for legit reasons.
on a diff note crafting mats as a jp dump, good idea crafting mats as honor pts dump only encourages ppl to continue botting bgs

[Manicpsycho]

finally us tanks get whats coming to us after all the sh*t we've been throught, with those horrible pugs.

imokwiththis.jpg

[Deleted]

This won't solve anything. A bit of macro analysis of the issue:

If you take a look at endgame, the % of tanks needed per raiding guild is really low compared to other roles, so there's less incentive to play a tank in the first place. Secondly, long time tanking positions are often pretty much set in stone and don't even get changed - when's the last time you've seen a highly progressed guild recruiting tanks?

And why aren't those tanks queuing in randoms? Well for starters, if they're raiding, they're hitting VP cap in 25 mans from raiding alone, if they're 10m, they're most likely running with a guild group for reasons mentioned below. That is, if they even care for VP at this stage at all - selling valor boots was good business a month or two ago, at this stage, many people with a healthy gold pool simply don't care anymore.

And why won't people tank randoms? Because there's a really good chance that the group you'll end up with will be outright horrible. Terrible DPS doing crap damage and doing nothing right, disastrous healers that have no clue about how to properly utilize their class, making a dungeon run looong and tedious, since you actually have to apply two braincells at what you're doing.

This wasn't an issue in wotlk, dps queues were about 15 minutes, and why? Two reasons - When dungeon finder was implemented, the average majority of the playerbase was already ridiculously overgeared for them, and since a random heroic (bar ICC ones) took 10-15 minutes to do, you could go there with 3 braindead people and still finish it easily. It didn't really matter who you'd queue up with most of the time.

That however is not the case anymore, and therein lies the problem. People usually take the path of least resistance, and it this situation boils down to two paradigms - the lower progressed playerbase that actually needs said dungeons is more often than not really bad, and people who could help them out don't do it because they don't want to lose any more nerves because of said people.

What we'll end up with will be a return of the wrath proverbial dk's (not necessarily dk's, but you know who they were), bad specs, bad glyphs, minimum gear and absolutely no idea what they're doing, but they saw a "tanks get additional rewards!" in the finder window and they went for it, and made 4 other's life absolutely miserable. Perhaps (!!) one or two of these makeshift tanks here and then may actually turn out good, but I'd bet my ass that it won't be the majority of the cases.

[Hattai]

finally us tanks get whats coming to us after all the sh*t we've been throught, with those horrible pugs.

imokwiththis.jpg

What about the shit DPS have to put up with when they get diva tanks who are undergeared or just plain stupid?

[Pool of the Dead]

>>Be Dps
>>QQ about long Queue times
>>Blizzard introduces idea to encourage more tanks to reduce DPS Queue time
>>QQ About Tanks getting Incentives

WTF Dps, this is for your Benefit. Stop acting like Spoilt Brats.

[Devastathor]

Until...you get back to back bad tanks and with blizz's new kick system that means you are effectively screwed.

... and how is this any different from the situation tanks are in today when getting back to back fail dps, afk dps, dying dps etc?
Don't whine if you don't want what you're whining to get.

I play a prot warrior (since vanilla) ilvl 360.
I've decked my alts in BoE valor boots, I've gotten some valor parts for an offspec I never use (mostly go dual tankspec for different encounters.) and I've got no use whatsoever for valor nor justice points.
This will give geared tanks (yes we gear faster since we have shorter queues in heroics and we're 1-2 tanks in a raid with alot more dps'ers sharing the loot) a reason to go heroics.
Not everyone is interested in getting vanity items, but I know that I'll prolly do heroics over and over again when I'm bored for a chance at mounts or pets.
Now you can say that it's unfair as a dps that you don't get a chance on those items, but you get short queues for heroics! If this wasn't implemented I'd still be farming for mounts, but you wouldn't benefit from it... I'd still get the mounts, but you wouldn't benefit from it.
While you're struggling as dps to get into a heroic for gear, I'm already geared and farming vanity stuff by myself, so what's wrong in helping me helping you?

Lovely system, can't wait to see it in action!

[Ulaenyth]

What about the shit DPS That tankshave to put up with?d?

I fixed your post for you

[Deleted]

1% is always 1%, no matter how many runs you run. It does not add up so that the 99th run gives a 99% chance. It's still 1%, and a lot of players will never earn anything off of it. It's your choice really - do you want blizz to try and encourage more tanks and healers by giving them something extra, or would you prefer the 45min queues?

[Hattai]

I fixed your post for you

I can promise you, it didnt need it

[Azrile]

I think a lot of people are missing the point of my post. For the record, I'm a healer so in many ways this affects me the least. I'm not trying to argue whether or not it is fair to give tanks more loot than everyone else. I'm arguing the using epic mounts is not a good solution because the drop chances are impossible to balance. You can't make the chance high enough to encourage people to run while keeping it low enough to keep the mounts rare.

You don´t have to have a complete victory. Even if they only take 1 dps and get them to queue as a tank, it will cut the queue down substantially.

But in all honesty, I think the bigger fix will come just from the troll dungeons and when 4.2 hits and we can buy 359 gear for JP. My guess is there are a lot of ´almost tanks´out there who don´t want to do a full pug in 346 gear, but are much more likely to do it in 359 gear. Also, once you start having all your pug healers in 359 gear, it further makes tanking easier. Same with DPS.. the faster stuff dies, the easier it is to tank. Getting gear from the troll heroics (while you are a dps) and spending JP to get 359 epics will put a lot of wannabe tanks over the edge where they will queue ofr pugs.

[Morsetlis]

I didn't realize there's a "value" to a mount that anybody could obtain from running level 60-70 dungeons.

---------- Post added 2011-04-07 at 01:29 AM ----------

For someone complaining about math fail, it would have been nice to see you get the probability maths right. If you run 100 heroics then that's a 1-(0.99^100)= 63% chance of getting a mount. Probability is not additive.

If you run 100 heroics with a 1% drop chance, the expected (average) value you get from those 100 heroics is exactly 1 mount. Will you get exactly one mount? PROBABLY, but it's not guaranteed. However, expected/average values are used to calculate risk without the ability to actually predict the future.

The ~63.4% chance is of getting 1 OR MORE mount(s). This is the counterpart to ~36.6% chance of not getting ANY mount.

Please be smart before trying to look smart.

[suicuique]

For someone complaining about math fail, it would have been nice to see you get the probability maths right. If you run 100 heroics then that's a 1-(0.99^100)= 63% chance of getting a mount. Probability is not additive.

Ughhh ... no.
63,3% is the probability that you get at least one mount in 100 runs.

But this is not what he talkes about. He's saying that on average, with a 1% drop chance, every 100 runs 1 tank would get 1 mount.
And this is a simple fact that is hard to argue.
The key word being "on average".

[Pappahealar]

I can see this failing.... Pet/mount collectors that have never tanked before queueing up as tanks and then not being able to do the dungeon and subsequently getting kicked until a tank comes along that has been queueing as a tank all along in cata. This basically defeats the purpose of the change.

Tanks queueing before change = 200
New tanks queueing because of rewards = 100
Total tanks = 300
Tanks that get kicked because they end up failing = ~100
Groups able to finish a dungeon = ~200

This is just me being pessimistic though.

Your logic kind of fails. You just can't bring a new value into the equation just like that. In this case tanks being kicked out(after change)
If you do you must bring this value into the former part of the equation. So tanks being kicked out(before change)

Therefor your equation would most likely look like this:
Before Change
Amount of tanks queing up daily = 200
Amount of bad tanks getting kicked = 30
Total amount of groups being able to complete the dungeon= 170
After Change
Amount of tanks queing up daily = 300
Amount of bad tanks getting kicked = 100
Total amount of groups being able to complete the dungeon = 200

This is still a increase of 30 groups per day completing the dungeon with the same tank without downtime.
Just because a person tanks before a change that encourages more tanks in dungeons doesn't mean that all those tanks are well fit for completing the whole dungeon without getting kicked. The same way applies to the "after change" tanks. The increasing amounts of tanks will increase the numbers of propability of kicked tanks. But it won't lower the chance of "before change" tanks that were bad to be good.
However it will by relativity increase the number of competent tanks doing dungeons. But now we are talking in WoW terms and casual part of the game. So the fail rate of new tanks will in this case be higher. However as shown in my list the amount of succesful dungeon runs will still increase.

So the question is, are you pessimistic or just bad at math?

[6kle]

I think one of the biggest problems with the lack of tanks in 5 mans is that there is much lower demand for tanks in raids. When you do 10 mans it's often only 1 tank and 9 other players. When doing a 25 man it's often 2 tanks and 23 other players. Then suddenly when doing 5 mans it's 1 tank and only 4 other players. It's way out of proportion, if we had enough tanks for 5 mans then there would be too much competition for tank spots in bigger raids.

Blizzard is now trying to fix the problem by making the tanks do 5 mans more often with these rewards. However I think it would be better to go straight to the core of the problem (maybe something for next expansion).

It would help a lot if they changed the concept so that a party consists of 7 players (5 dps, 1 tank, 1 healer). 10 mans turned to 14 player raids and bigger raids to 28 players or 35 players. Then the ratio of dps/healer/tanks would not change so wildly.

[khalltusk]

Playing as a tank (check my armoury its true!) I LOVE this change. I rarely do heroics atm (mostly I do them out of boredom or when we want to gear up an alt of a friend) but this will mean Ill be logging on and doing heroics in the same manner I did when cata launched ALL the damn time

the groups ive pugged with have all finished the dungeon some took a lot longer than others but for the most part most are smooth now.

This is a great idea from blizzard <3 it.

[Sly]

If you run 100 heroics with a 1% drop chance, the expected (average) value you get from those 100 heroics is exactly 1 mount. Will you get exactly one mount? PROBABLY, but it's not guaranteed. However, expected/average values are used to calculate risk without the ability to actually predict the future.

The ~63.4% chance is of getting 1 OR MORE mount(s). This is the counterpart to ~36.6% chance of not getting ANY mount.

Please be smart before trying to look smart.

Thank you (and suicuique). Someone had to correct the correction.

[Kuja]

Reins of the Vitreous Stone Drake
Reins of the Drake of the North Wind
Deathcharger's Reins
Reins of the Blue Proto-Drake
Reins of the Raven Lord
Swift White Hawkstrider
Reins of the Blue Drake

Those drop from 5mans. Can't think of any other mounts

[Jeleh]

Having never wanted to tank on my warrior previously I simply would for the extra rewards and chance at free mounts/pets. Tank on my dk regularly but never really been drawn by warrior tanking, the chances at pets and mounts (although rare) certainly pushes me towards tanking as well as rolling my spriest to a healer spec.

[Deleted]

Yey, I highly approve of this change.

I play a warrior tank, with an average iLevel of 362 and even a fully epiced out offspec and all reps at exalted (the ones you can grind up in Cata dungeons, atleast). That is to say, I have no reason what so ever to run dungeons. And even when I bother to do the daily random dungeon, I queue as fury because I really, really cba to tank for shitty pug groups after tanking in raids three nights a week.

Basically, I'm one of those players Blizzard is trying to lure back into queueing into heroics as a tank, and they're succeeding. I'm going to be tanking heroics after patch. Good job, Blizzy.

I have a feeling that most people QQing about the change really don't understand what's the reason behind long queue times for DPS. It's not DPS'ers fault, and it's not the tank's fault. As long as there are no players queing as tanks, there is nothing Blizzard can do about that. They can either force people or bribe people. I don't see any practical way of forcing people into tanking ("I see you have a tank spec, queue into a random dungeon as tank within the next 5 minutes or get banned for 15 days" ?), so that leaves bribing.