LFD Item LvL Requirement not enough?

[Mudip]

Before I start, I would like say that this is not against anyone wearing SOME PvP gear when they do their heroics with other puggers. In addition, I’m going to define some terms. They may not be the true definitions of the said terms, but it’s what I’m referring to at the very least.

Stat(s): Intellect, Agility, Strength, Spirit, Stamina.

Sub-Stat(s): Critical strike Rating, Spell Power, Attack Power, Hit rating, Haste Rating, Health.

Basically this is a suggestion for improvement in the current LFD tool. I’m suggesting that there needs to be sub-stat requirements for tanks/healers/dps for the LFD Q, not just an item-level requirement, because wearing mostly resilience gear can lead to group fail. Realize that the requirements that I’m suggesting would be easier to obtain than the ilvl requirement needed to Q for a random heroic.

Examples:

Tanks: Needs XXX dodge rating and/or XXX parry rating – The total dodge and/or parry doesn’t need to add up to all gear slots being tank itemized and 333. As many tanks have indeed geared themselves AS tanks through heroics with some 333 plate dps itemized gear in addition to pvp gear. Druid’s agility itemized leather obviously. The joys of reforging.

Healers: need XXX spirit – The Total spirit doesn’t need to add up to a gear set of ilvl 333 gear that is ALL spirit itemized.

XXX doesn’t even have to be equivalent to full 333 avoidance/spirit gear (tanks and healers respectively) in every gear slot on their character sheet. It just needs to be a noticeable (certain magic) number that will allow the said tank / healer to perform their duties in the group with at least 1-2 crowd controllers.

The problem I’m seeing, and why I’m making this post is because lately I’ve been running into plenty of people wearing the wrong gear. And I do want to ask players on these forums if the following is the reason why they may have had bad Cata heroic pugging experiences. I am NOT talking about the following:

1) a caster/warlock/melee/hunter with an arena weapon.
2) players in a mix of pvp and pve gear/some pieces of pvp gear.
3) A shaman wearing a couple or so spirit itemized leather gear.
4) players in quest gear, because we all have to start somewhere.

Inc ranting:
I’M talking about the healers/dps wearing mostly avoidance gear, and the tanks wearing spirit gear, and ALL OF THE ABOVE GEMMING CRITICAL STRIKE GEMS. Most of the players I’m referring to, from my own experience, are the level 85 holy paladins and resto druids wearing [Essence of Gossamer] from Heroic Azjol’Nerub (Yes two different healers wearing the same damn trinket, I have screenshots but I’m not calling them out). That was just an extreme example, and the only thing I can think of when I see players in cata heroics wearing gear of lower ilvl than Hyjal quest rewards… are players who botted their way to 85. It’s already well-known that our current WoW community is infested with pve/pvp/profession gathering botters, and we are all doing our best to report them and finding methods in detecting them. Thus, my assumption and the only thing I can think of when it comes to that kind of gear today being a player’s only option in gear.

I do play this game a lot, and from my experience as an 85 warlock/warrior/hunter doing random heroics, I’m seeing these people with the right average iLvL in their INVENTORY, but what they have equipped may be the same blue gear from a 5 man WotLK heroic, and that could have been replaced by Hyjal quest rewards. End of ranting

One problem with this, that I can think of right now, is the coding required to do this.

However, I’d love some responses on what I just posted from the community. Mainly ways to further develop/improve it for consideration, as this is an extremely rough-draft of a possible LFD system change that would overall benefit the community and their game-play experience. I also welcome many forms of trolling.

1-2 dps can only carry so much, a healer can only heal so much #$%^ in flames, and a tank like me can only laugh so much while dying a little in the inside.

[carrierz]

this thread is so new and exciting to read

it's more likely you'll get any response by blizzard and the community if you post it on the official forums

[DomBomb1]

This solves nothing anyway. I've seen terrible players in great gear wiping repeatedly in heroics. I've also seen great players playing a badly geared alt and do perfectly fine with no wipes.

I game the ILVL system on every alt I play, and I still out dps most people in my first heroic, or tank everything just fine with no wipes in half dps gear.

[Mudip]

This solves nothing anyway. I've seen terrible players in great gear wiping repeatedly in heroics. I've also seen great players playing a badly geared alt and do perfectly fine with no wipes.

I game the ILVL system on every alt I play, and I still out dps most people in my first heroic, or tank everything just fine with no wipes in half dps gear.

I do the same with my alts, two of them are pure dps classes. The issue I'm trying to point out is, for example, dps death knight wearing tank gear and gemmed in pure stam or agility. While skill does help people, gear will always limit them in this game.

It's fine that you can out dps most people in your first heroic, but I'd like to see you do it in gear not itemized for your class, or in WoLK blue gear.

[DomBomb1]

I do the same with my alts, two of them are pure dps classes. The issue I'm trying to point out is, for example, dps death knight wearing tank gear and gemmed in pure stam or agility. While skill does help people, gear will always limit them in this game.

It's fine that you can out dps most people in your first heroic, but I'd like to see you do it in gear not itemized for your class, or in WoLK blue gear.

I really really hate it when I have to quote myself, but:

I still [...] tank everything just fine with no wipes in half dps gear.

Oh and people wearing WOTLK blues wouldn't meet the ilvl requirement as it is, so I fail to see the point in bringing that up.


If anything, what I'd like to see is that if people are wearing dps gear in a tanking or healing role, that there be some enforcement of proper reforging (crit/haste -> mastery/dodge/stam and crit/haste/mastery -> spirit, respectively).

[Mudip]

I really really hate it when I have to quote myself, but:


Oh and people wearing WOTLK blues wouldn't meet the ilvl requirement as it is, so I fail to see the point in bringing that up.

From this I can see you didnt read my post. My suggestion supported tanks having LESS than half tank itemized gear.

In addition, allow me to educate you in how the LFD item level system works real quick, and I will make it simple.

It not only takes into account the gear that you're wearing, but the gear in your inventory space aswell. This includes gear that you are indeed capable of wearing, random boe blues/greens in addition to possible crafted epics or random boe epics that one may plan on selling and not equipping.

Yes, this gear that rots in the player's inventory space does change their item level.

[4KhazModan]

B

Examples:

Tanks: Needs XXX dodge rating and/or XXX parry rating – The total dodge and/or parry doesn’t need to add up to all gear slots being tank itemized and 333. As many tanks have indeed geared themselves AS tanks through heroics with some 333 plate dps itemized gear in addition to pvp gear. Druid’s agility itemized leather obviously. The joys of reforging.

[

This is where I stopped reading. Not all tanks stack dodge/parry anymore. As a pally tank myself, these are some of the worst stats I can have above a certain amount. Make it mastery instead, get rid of all those bad stam stacking tanks.

[DomBomb1]

From this I can see you didnt read my post. My suggestion supported tanks having LESS than half tank itemized gear.

It's not that I didn't read your post. It's that you're nitpicking about "half" vs. "less than half" when I don't really care about the exact amounts. You can tank heroics just fine as long as you have enough stamina to survive a few hits, a decent healer, and one good CC. None of that depends at all on how "tank-itemized" your gear is, plus you can reforge gear, plus dps gear with mastery is as good for tanking as "tanking" gear with hit on it.

In addition, allow me to educate you in how the LFD item level system works real quick, and I will make it simple.

It not only takes into account the gear that you're wearing, but the gear in your inventory space aswell. This includes gear that you are indeed capable of wearing, random boe blues/greens in addition to possible crafted epics or random boe epics that one may plan on selling and not equipping.

Yes, this gear that rots in the player's inventory space does change their item level.

Why do you assume I need this education? I know how the ilvl system works. Did I not say that I game the system on all my alts? Most people who know enough to game the system using BOEs (btw, random greens aren't really high enough ilvl to help with gaming the system... most people use crafted pieces and blue BOEs from heroics) also know enough to be able to handle themselves in a dungeon while "undergeared". Those who don't, get vote-kicked or heckled out of the group. I've NEVER seen an undergeared healer/tank dig their heels in and say "NO SCREW YOU GUYS I'M STAYING IN THIS GROUP" when told they're undergeared. In fact, most of the time after one wipe, they go "Sorry I'm undergeared for this" and leave group.

---------- Post added 2011-04-07 at 07:11 AM ----------

This is where I stopped reading. Not all tanks stack dodge/parry anymore. As a pally tank myself, these are some of the worst stats I can have above a certain amount. Make it mastery instead, get rid of all those bad stam stacking tanks.

You're nitpicking unimportant details. Sure he SAID dodge/parry, but he clearly meant dodge/parry/mastery.

(Edit: going to bed, don't expect any more responses soon)

[Deleted]

I don't like this idea. I hit 85 on my priest with 315ish gearlevel, but didn't even have a single wipe in the first 5 heroic PuGs I did. It's fine the way it is.

[Kokuryuu]

@DomBomb1

Really, an undergeared tank who admits they are at fault?

Anytime I get an undergeared tank, they assume they are the absolute peak of awesomeness and are to busy wondering why Paragon hasn't recruited them to actually care about tanking a heroic properly. They stack stamina and laugh at all the tanks that are in heroic raids with the same HP as them, and assume it is the healers fault anytime they die... even if they are wearing ilvl 200 stamina trinkets. If we wipe, the tank always refuses to leave group, I have only once seen a tank leave group, and that was because the instance bugged and it was impossible to finish (boss wouldn't spawn). I have had 3 tanks, stay in group and leave the instance after a wipe, refusing to requeue or leave. And all of them stacked stamina, refused to interrupt, and blamed the healer for their deaths.

[killernik13]

You forgot the mastery stat btw

[microtonal]

Instruction creep is never a good solution, no matter what the problem is. Blizzard has already given you the options to vote-kick group members or to leave the group yourself. It's up to you to decide when it's time to use them.

It's not Blizzard's responsibility to fix human stupidity. That's a population-wide evolutionary problem, not a coding or systems issue in a single video game.

[DomBomb1]

@DomBomb1

Really, an undergeared tank who admits they are at fault?

Anytime I get an undergeared tank, they assume they are the absolute peak of awesomeness and are to busy wondering why Paragon hasn't recruited them to actually care about tanking a heroic properly. They stack stamina and laugh at all the tanks that are in heroic raids with the same HP as them, and assume it is the healers fault anytime they die... even if they are wearing ilvl 200 stamina trinkets. If we wipe, the tank always refuses to leave group, I have only once seen a tank leave group, and that was because the instance bugged and it was impossible to finish (boss wouldn't spawn). I have had 3 tanks, stay in group and leave the instance after a wipe, refusing to requeue or leave. And all of them stacked stamina, refused to interrupt, and blamed the healer for their deaths.

I'm not "at fault" if I successfully complete my dungeons without an issue DESPITE being "undergeared". It simply proves that you don't need to be wearing all tank gear to tank a heroic. If you actually read the content of what I posted, rather than simply trying to find something "wrong" to attack, you would realize that you can reforge your dps gear such that it has THE SAME or MORE tanking stats than an equivalent tanking piece, along with the same amount of str/agi and stam. But you know what? Go ahead and keep putting words in my mouth. I don't mind throwing them back into your face.

[Deleted]

Itemlevel means nothing. Even if you had full 359 epic, you wouldn't be very awesome without gems and enchants. Most people I see in /lfd have absolutely no gems and enchants. I mean, I do understand not getting the most expensive gems and enchants for crap gear, but some of the enchants are dirt cheap and the cheaper cata gems aren't expensive either.

It really does change things a lot if you have 8 30 <primary stat> gems compared to none at all.

329, even below 329, gear for ANY player in a 5 man heroic is enough. It's just that unenchanted/gemmed 329 or a bit below gear isn't enough for facerolling yourself through them.

[DomBomb1]

329, even below 329, gear for ANY player in a 5 man heroic is enough. It's just that unenchanted/gemmed 329 or a bit below gear isn't enough for facerolling yourself through them.

This was true even with only the 5% luck of the draw, and is especially true now with 15%.

[Kokuryuu]

@ DomBomb1

Sorry, I didn't mean that at you, I'm just saying that from my experience, I rarely run into undergeared tanks who know what they are doing. I have yet to find those tanks that are played well, with almost no 346 gear, but have correct gear. It is usually pvp gear gemmed with stamina (or not gemmed / enchanted), just to get into heroics. I am actually agreeing with the original post in that they should be required to have parry, dodge, mastery, instead of stacking stamina. The fact I made that the post @ you was simply at your last 2 statements that you have:
"NEVER seen an undergeared healer/tank dig their heels in and say "NO SCREW YOU GUYS I'M STAYING IN THIS GROUP" when told they're undergeared."

I simply was saying how I get those all the time, I'm sorry if you took that as "I think you are a bad tank", I didn't mean it like that, because I would love to see an undergeared tank who does not insult the entire group for his screw ups, does not stack stamina gems with pvp gear, and can tank correctly (not put their back to mobs, stay out of fire, etc). However, there are some fights which I would say undergeared tanks can be a problem, and I NEVER get any tank who willingly leaves.

And I'm talking about pvp gear with haste and crit, I don't care as much about pvp gear with mastery.

Also, the at fault part was poorly worded on my part, I should have used "undergeared, which is causing problems".

[DomBomb1]

@ DomBomb1

Sorry, I didn't mean that at you, I'm just saying that from my experience, I rarely run into undergeared tanks who know what they are doing. I have yet to find those tanks that are played well, with almost no 346 gear, but have correct gear. It is usually pvp gear gemmed with stamina (or not gemmed / enchanted), just to get into heroics. I am actually agreeing with the original post in that they should be required to have parry, dodge, mastery, instead of stacking stamina. The fact I made that the post @ you was simply at your last 2 statements that you have:
"NEVER seen an undergeared healer/tank dig their heels in and say "NO SCREW YOU GUYS I'M STAYING IN THIS GROUP" when told they're undergeared."

I simply was saying how I get those all the time, I'm sorry if you took that as "I think you are a bad tank", I didn't mean it like that, because I would love to see an undergeared tank who does not insult the entire group for his screw ups, does not stack stamina gems with pvp gear, and can tank correctly (not put their back to mobs, stay out of fire, etc). However, there are some fights which I would say undergeared tanks can be a problem, and I NEVER get any tank who willingly leaves.

And I'm talking about pvp gear with haste and crit, I don't care as much about pvp gear with mastery.

Also, the at fault part was poorly worded on my part, I should have used "undergeared, which is causing problems".

Too be fair, the most important thing to get more of when you're undergeared IS stamina. If you can't take three hits in a row without a heal, you're gonna die whether you have 30% avoidance or 90% avoidance. Then you just have to make up for your lowish avoidance/mastery with good use of cooldowns and avoiding mechanics (I'm looking at you, first three bosses of grim batol). However, I do agree that getting there stamina-wise using PVP is pretty mediocre. Much better to use mastery+something DPS gear and reforge the something. There's plenty of tanking greens from twilight highlands questing and AH, and quite a bit of 333 and 346 blues from reputations to fill in the gaps.

I guess my point there, in my ramblings, is that there's no excuse for not having enough gear: you should be honored or revered with most (all?) of the reps just from levelling and have quite a few tanking pieces from twilight highlands, such that if you HAVE to put on a pvp piece or two to fill in an empty slot, it isn't THAT big of a deal.

[Deleted]

Meh. Just make the iLVL for heroics 333, and remove the ilvl from PVP gear as far as LFD is concerned.

That way people who come to heroics have ran the normals enough times to gear themselves for the heroic. (also, Twilight highlands has several ilvl333 quest revards does it not?, as well as some of the dungeon quests offering said ilvl gear)

Bottom line, force people to actually LEARN the dungeons before allowing entry on heroic. (oh yeah and make completion of normal mode a requirement to heroic a la Heroic MgT in TBC)

I play tank in the dungeons more often than not and it's not the undergeared people that really irritate me. It's the people who don't know the basics of the said dungeon. I got no problem explaining heroic only strats, but if I need to explain stuff like "Get out of dark fissures" in ToT second boss or "Get out of the traps" in Tol'Vir first boss, or "Get out of Alpha Beams" in HoO second/third boss... and STILL see people fail at them... that's when I despair. Yes, getting out of stuff STILL seems to be the MAJOR problem for people in the LFD

[DomBomb1]

@DonTirri: If they make it so you have to do regular before you can do heroic, then they also need to make it so you have to do ALL the regulars before you can queue for a random heroic. (Just saying... I'm not commenting in anyway that this would be a good/bad idea or that it would make it infeasible) Otherwise people can game the random heroic system just like they used to by not "discovering" dungeons they didn't like or didn't want gear from.

[Azerate]

There is no way to judge people's brain and skill to play with their class. And this is the main issue here. And people who know what to do will do it properly also in 339ilvl pvp gear, believe me.