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  1. #1

    Vendetta, a simple guide for Assassination rogue

    First and foremost I would like to say that NONE of this is copy and pasted from EJ. This comes from MY experience as a rogue and the questions I have seen in the forums and in game. This guide will take you as far as normal raiding content, for everything after that (Heroic Raid Bosses) I would go to the Elitist Jerks thread.

    Mut Rogue specs:
    So let's get started. The first question I see is, "What is a good spec?"

    2/3 Precision(Considered the most "optimal spec")
    Deadend Nerves over Deadly Brew

    My spec - In my spec I have 3/3 in precision to ease my need for hit so that I can reforge/gem into other high priority stats.

    There are other variations but I have found that those listed have the highest dps output. The Deadened Nerves and Deadly Brew talents are fillers and that point may be put anywhere without losing dps.

    "But I PvP, what about me?"
    PvP spec 1
    PvP spec 2

    Glyphs:
    There is no longer a debate about glyphs, these ones listed provide the highest dps:
    Prime - Mutilate, Rupture, Backstab
    Major - Feint, Sap, Tricks of the Trade
    Minor - Safe Fall, Blurred Speed, Poisons

    For major glyphs I would have to say that Feint is a must. Feint is an amazing ability not just for reducing threat but for reducing AoE damage done by bosses and mobs. Sap is invaluable for CC, especially if you're the only CC in the group.

    Minor glyphs don't matter, not a single one of them is a dps increase unless your poisons fall off in the middle of a fight. The lockpicking glyph does work nice in a few spots (Heroic Deadmines while in the nightmare, after killing the Harvester you can lockpick the door and move to the next spot before it begins)

    Rotation and Cooldowns:
    Your number one priority when starting a fight is to start it in stealth and open with Garrote. There are two reasons for this;

    1. Overkill, when you first come out of stealth and for 20 seconds after that you have increased energy regeneration. You want this buff so that you can put up Rupture and SnD ASAP.
    2. Garrote, when combined with overkill this gives you HUGE energy regeneration at the beginning of the fight. Right before a bloodlust/heroism/time warp I will use Vanish and reapply Garrote to maximize energy return during that burn.

    Other then that the rotation is fairly simple for single target:
    4+ CP SnD, 4+ CP Rupture, 4+ CP Envenom
    Mutilate is your source of Combo Points (CP) until the boss reaches 35%.
    After applying Rupture and Getting SnD going it just comes down to keeping your Envenom buff up and refreshing Rupture whenever it falls off. SnD will always be refreshed whenever you Envenom and you "shouldn't" have to reapply it. As for the Envenom buff, try to avoid clipping it (clipping = refreshing before it falls off), but it's better to clip it than let your energy reach max and stay there. It is not a dot and refreshing it before it wears off is not a significant dps decrease but you should hold out until it does fall off to maximize its uptime.
    WARNING!!!!! WARNING!!!! THE BOSS IS UNDER 35%!!!!!!!!
    At this point you switch from using Mutilate to using Backstab. Also, it's not 4+ CP anymore, you Backstab till you have 5 CP then use finishers.

    AoE rotation is handled in one of two ways:
    1. Spam Fan of Knives (FoK)
    2. Apply rupture to several targets then spam FoK
    The rotation used depends on how many mobs there are and how long they will survive. If you know they will die quickly then TotT to the tank and spam FoK and enjoy your 20k AoE dps. If your using the 2nd form of the AoE rotation put up ruptures on three or four mobs only using one Mutilate per mob for CPs.

    Cooldowns:
    Assassination rogues have three cooldowns (outside of trinkets like Unsolvable Riddle and profession based abilities like Synapse Springs). They are Vendetta, Cold Blood and Vanish.
    Vendetta: You will want to use this ability whenever it is off cooldown and when you can stay on the targetted mob/boss for it's duration. It is not advised to try and use this during AoE since it only effects one target. When used it will place a debuff on the target that will last for 30 seconds (36 if glyphed).
    Cold Blood: This ability generates 25 energy and makes your next non-periodic damage ability have a 100% crit chance. EJ says to use this when you are about to use a 5 CP Envenom. So if you are going to use it like that make sure the 25 energy gained will not cap you. DO NOT use while spamming FoK since it's non-periodic damage is low.
    Vanish: This ability is amazing for DPS gains. When used you will regain Overkill and be able to reapply Garrote. This is best used before your group uses bloodlust/heroism/time warp unless that ability is used at the beginning of the fight when you will have Overkill and Garrote up anyway. If your group is using bloodlust early I would suggest using this before you reapply Vendetta the second time.

    Poisons.
    For PvE you want Instant Poison on your main hand, Deadly Poison on your off hand and thrown weapons.
    For PvP you want Wound Poison on your main hand, Deadly Poison on your off hand and thrown weapons.
    You should have spec'd into deadly brew so there is no need for Crippling Poison. Wound Poison is used in PvP for the healing reduction.

    Weapons.
    1.8 Main hand and 1.4 Off hand. Both slots will be daggers since most of our abilities require a dagger to use.

    Stats/Gems/Reforging:
    Stat Priority: Agility > Spell Hit Cap (AkA Poison hit cap) > Mastery > Haste > Crit > Expertise
    Raw Agility is your best stat, there is nothing better.
    Spell Hit Cap or Poison Hit Cap is just as important as Agility. 17% is the Hit Cap, but you have to look under "Spell" in your character pane to see it. This is not the Melee Hit Chance.
    Haste and Mastery, what to say here? These stats are equally as important and you want them both as high as possible. The more Haste you have the more melee hits you will perform which means faster poison application, and faster energy regeneration. Mastery increases your poison damage. Poisons are the main source of a Mut Rogues dps.
    Critical Strike........ it's the stat we reforge into other higher priority stats. It's not completely useless since ability crits add an extra combo point. But dont reforge or gem into it.
    Expertise, this is our lowest stat and all the expertise you need will come from gear. You do not have to reforge, gem, or enchant into this stat. When a rogue is dodged/parried/misses we are refunded 80% of the ability cost (i.e. you only lose 7 energy when an Envenom is dodged/parried/misses).

    Gems:
    Delicate Inferno Ruby (red) - 40 AGI
    Adept Ember Topaz (orange) - 20 AGI 20 Mastery
    Glinting Demonseye (purple) - 20 AGI 20 Hit

    These are the gems I use (minus my cogwheel sockets) in all of my gear. I go for all socket bonuses which are normally either 10/20 AGI or 10/20 Haste. Many people will say that if the socket bonus isn't 20 AGI then don't go for the bonus but what's the fun in that? Your gonna have all red gems in your gear except maybe one or two pieces and variety is the spice of life (and what rogue doesn't like a little spice huh?). The only socket bonuses I would ignore are Crit and if it exists Expertise.

    Reforging:
    After you reach Spell Hit Cap you want to reforge into mastery wherever possible.
    When looking to reforge gear I have always followed this;

    Expertise > Mastery/Haste (if the item has haste reforge to mastery and vise versa. If it does not have haste or mastery, reforge into mastery)
    Crit > Mastery/Haste (if the item has haste reforge to mastery and vise versa. If it does not have haste or mastery, reforge into mastery)
    Expertise > Hit (if under spell hit cap)
    Crit > Hit (if under spell hit cap)

    Unfortunately you can not reforge into Agility or else that's all I would have said here lol.

    Tips and Tricks
    A section that the community can help me with. Tips and tricks for bosses and what abilities help/hurt you on them.

    Heroic Valiona and Theralion
    Sub rogue guide for this fight, use it and love it.

    Cho'gall
    -Blind interrupts worshiping, for those healers/casters too far away to kick.

    Al'akir
    -Goblins, do not use rocket jump in phase 3, you will just fall to your death and be laughed at. In phase 1 it's amazing for jumping back into the boss after a wind burst.

    Magmaw
    -If you get chosen to jump up and chain him you don't have to stay up the whole time. Hit the chain and make sure he is snagged, then press the exit vehicle button to get down and help quicker.

    Nefarian
    -Feint reduces the electrocute damage, time your feints with electrocute casts.


    Resources:
    The in-depth Elitist Jerks Mut Rogue guide - Includes all the math and heroic raid content information.
    ShadowCraft - Amazing website for reforging/enchant/gemming for any rogue
    Last edited by Hizzy; 2011-06-15 at 02:10 PM.

  2. #2
    As for the Envenom buff, you can clip this. It is not a dot and refreshing it before it wears off will NOT lower your dps.
    Pretty sure wasting it will lower your dps, though if it's the choice of clipping Envenom and SnD dropping, I guess it's alright?
    Edit: found it on EJ. "Clipping 1 second of Evenom = Damage loss: 1368"

    Also, not saying you are wrong on anything, but making a 'guide' what has wrong priority on stats/gearing/speccing or something such as gemming/reforging isn't a good thing. I know you said it was what is best for you, but telling other people what is best for you, and for them to copy it(you wouldn't believe the amount of people what take things so easily), would be bad.


    Other than that, nice read.




    P.S. To any Mods reading, after everyone has finished nit-picking through it and it's been updated a few times, you should sticky it. :3
    Last edited by Soisoisoi; 2011-04-12 at 08:49 PM.

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by Treelife View Post
    Pretty sure wasting it will lower your dps, though if it's the choice of clipping Envenom and SnD dropping, I guess it's alright?

    Also, not saying you are wrong on anything, but making a 'guide' what has wrong priority on stats isn't a good thing.


    Other than that, nice read.
    Hitting envenom with 4+ CP before it wears off is a rare thing to happen, but if/when it does it is not a dps decrease it just keeps the buff going.

    How are the stat weights wrong?

  4. #4
    How did you test it?
    Even though your work and dedication is admirable, simply stating "It works for me" doesn't magically validates your findings.
    A witty saying proves nothing.
    -Voltaire
    not quite Batman
    winning
    "A stick is a love letter that hasn't been made into paper yet."
    plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by ymirsson View Post
    How did you test it?
    Even though your work and dedication is admirable, simply stating "It works for me" doesn't magically validates your findings.
    Not trying to say that this will work for everyone. I tested this in raids (sorry no parses yet working on it though) and found the best dps increases for me. Someone else may have had another experience and I would love to hear it so that I may change/alter things I have listed here

  6. #6
    Deleted
    Clipping the envenom buff is a dps decrease.

    Say you can hit it again to get another 4 seconds of the buff and you have 1 second left of the previous buff. If you hit it immediately, you have another 4 seconds of the buff, for a total 4 seconds. If you wait 1 second, as well as having an extra 10 energy pooled for your next move, you will have a total of 5 seconds uptime on the buff (1 of old + 4 of new) - an increase.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Abb View Post
    Clipping the envenom buff is a dps decrease.

    Say you can hit it again to get another 4 seconds of the buff and you have 1 second left of the previous buff. If you hit it immediately, you have another 4 seconds of the buff, for a total 4 seconds. If you wait 1 second, as well as having an extra 10 energy pooled for your next move, you will have a total of 5 seconds uptime on the buff (1 of old + 4 of new) - an increase.
    Edited to state that it is not a significant dps decrease, thank you.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Hizzy View Post
    Edited to state that it is not a significant dps decrease, thank you.
    Any DPS decrease is a decrease, best not to advise people to do so.

  9. #9
    Very nice post.

    I'd say in the rotation, you don't really have to go to 4+ CP for the initial SnD.
    I find that if I get an extra point from Ruthlessness after the initial Rupture, I can usually SnD, Mutilate x2 and Envenom before the SnD wears off.
    If I don't get that point, a 2-3 CP SnD will usually be enough.

    I guess Haste levels might affect if you can do this (since haste affects energy regeneration).

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Treelife View Post
    Any DPS decrease is a decrease, best not to advise people to do so.
    Edited the line to state "refreshing it before it wears off is not a significant dps decrease but you should hold out until it does fall off to maximize its uptime."

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Hizzy View Post
    Stats/Gems/Reforging:
    Stat Priority: Agility > Spell Hit Cap (AkA Poison hit cap) > Haste=Mastery > Crit > Expertise
    The bolded part is incorrect. Though you will want haste as well as mastery in your gearing, Mastery is; and for the foreseeable future, always will be; > Haste. However Haste is > crit.


    As well, with the info you've provided on dodges/parries/misses. It's not that we only lose a finite amount of energy for each and every ability in our arsenal should it get dodged/parried/missed. It's that we are refunded 80% of the energy cost of that ability. 7 energy just happens to be 20% of envenom.
    Last edited by hordeorcrogue; 2011-04-12 at 08:53 PM.
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    You are all blind to not see Paragons strat. They used gnome mages as sacrifice to the Earth Godess wich granted them unimaginable powahs and lazor beamz able to cut trough Arthas's tick armor.
    Quote Originally Posted by Castel View Post
    People choose PvP servers because they think they're going to be the most dangerous predator in the jungle. Then they find out that the reality is they're just the littlest guy in the prison shower.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by hordeorcrogue View Post
    The bolded part is incorrect. Though you will want haste as well as mastery in your gearing, Mastery is; and for the foreseeable future, always will be; > Haste. However Haste is > crit.
    Confirmed through EJ, thank you and it is fixed.

    Nalnik: I didn't want to get too advanced as this was just supposed to be a simple guide since none existed yet. I don't want to get into procs and lucky CP gains for people just starting out. I've found when you go that in-depth most people get confused easily lol. I do however completely agree with you that the initial SnD does not really need 4+ CP but for the sake of simplicity let's just say 4+ CP lol

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Hizzy View Post
    Confirmed through EJ, thank you and it is fixed.

    Nalnik: I didn't want to get too advanced as this was just supposed to be a simple guide since none existed yet. I don't want to get into procs and lucky CP gains for people just starting out. I've found when you go that in-depth most people get confused easily lol. I do however completely agree with you that the initial SnD does not really need 4+ CP but for the sake of simplicity let's just say 4+ CP lol
    Clipping envenom is a very bad habit to get into though. Even in a simple guide, it is not hard to say to avoid it when you can. You don't even mention energy pooling or capping and I can see ignoring those for a simple guide, even though those are why you can allow envenom to not clip. Straight out saying "you can clip this" is foolish. There is no reason to clip it except in nice lucky circumstances. You shouldn't often run into capping energy and be forced to do that. That sentence is wrong and needs to have a much better qualifier to stay, in my opinion. Certainly not a stand alone sentence like that.

    I think it should be something more like "try to avoid clipping envenom, but it's better to clip it than let your energy reach max and stay there."
    Also, EJs SND > rupture > envenom finisher explanation seems pretty simple to me. You can give that without their whole explanations and it's easy enough to understand.
    And I don't know why you have it listed as 4+ for SND. I fairly regularly can just toss up a 1-2 point one, if I know I can pump out an envenom soon to automatically refresh it to 5 points. I'd hate to think someone would sit there and pool up the combo points for SND, when it's easy enough to just get it up and then pump out an envenom.
    It also might be worth throwing in a note that it's more important to have rupture up than to have a 4 point version up. SND > rupture > envenom seems simpler than what you have with the combo points, and is actually more accurate, since having those up regardless of points is more important than the number of points put into them, last I checked. It should have that priority, with the side note that having a higher combo point rupture is better.
    Last edited by Cactrot; 2011-04-12 at 09:10 PM.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Cactrot View Post
    Clipping envenom is a very bad habit to get into though. Even in a simple guide, it is not hard to say to avoid it when you can. You don't even mention energy pooling or capping and I can see ignoring those for a simple guide, even though those are why you can allow envenom to not clip. Straight out saying "you can clip this" is foolish. There is no reason to clip it except in nice lucky circumstances. You shouldn't often run into capping energy and be forced to do that. That sentence is wrong and needs to have a much better qualifier to stay, in my opinion. Certainly not a stand alone sentence like that.

    I think it should be something more like "try to avoid clipping envenom, but it's better to clip it than let your energy reach max and stay there."
    Also, EJs SND > rupture > envenom finisher explanation seems pretty simple to me. You can give that without their whole explanations and it's easy enough to understand.
    And I don't know why you have it listed as 4+ for SND. I fairly regularly can just toss up a 1-2 point one, if I know I can pump out an envenom soon to automatically refresh it to 5 points. I'd hate to think someone would sit there and pool up the combo points for SND, when it's easy enough to just get it up and then pump out an envenom.
    It also might be worth throwing in a note that it's more important to have rupture up than to have a 4 point version up. SND > rupture > envenom seems simpler than what you have with the combo points, and is actually more accurate, since having those up regardless of points is more important than the number of points put into them, last I checked. It should have that priority, with the side note that having a higher combo point rupture is better.
    I like your wording for clipping envenom and edited the post to reflect that.

    As for the 4+ CP SnD, I didn't want a new rogue rushing in here saying that "2CP wasnt enough my SnD falls off!!!!!111!!111one!!!1!!" so for the sake of simplicity I just kept it at 4+ CP. If it becomes something that more rogues comment on I will change that line.

    Thank you

  15. #15
    Can I ask why you left out Glyph of Backstab out?
    Since backstab generally has a pretty high crit chance and + the talent that gives you back 30 energy every time you use backstab when a target is 35% and lower you'll get 35 energy back most of the time wich gives you more dps than the 6 extra few seconds you get on your vendetta imo.

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Prs View Post
    Can I ask why you left out Glyph of Backstab out?
    Since backstab generally has a pretty high crit chance and + the talent that gives you back 30 energy every time you use backstab when a target is 35% and lower you'll get 35 energy back most of the time wich gives you more dps than the 6 extra few seconds you get on your vendetta imo.
    Oh snap that wasn't intentional I just forgot about it thanks it is fixed now

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Hizzy View Post
    I like your wording for clipping envenom and edited the post to reflect that.

    As for the 4+ CP SnD, I didn't want a new rogue rushing in here saying that "2CP wasnt enough my SnD falls off!!!!!111!!111one!!!1!!" so for the sake of simplicity I just kept it at 4+ CP. If it becomes something that more rogues comment on I will change that line.

    Thank you
    I'm feeling light headed. I was all ready for a debate, and you just... listened. That was unexpected. Where am I? lol

    I definitely see your point about SND. For a simple guide, I think your way is perfectly acceptable.

    Looking at EJ, I noticed they actually have rupture stated as 1+. Do you think the wording could be changed to "4+ rupture when you can, but if it's falling off throw whatever combo points you have into keeping it up" kind of thing? That energy gain (and damage) is just amazing, I want to make sure the new guys don't underestimate its value.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Cactrot View Post
    I'm feeling light headed. I was all ready for a debate, and you just... listened. That was unexpected. Where am I? lol

    I definitely see your point about SND. For a simple guide, I think your way is perfectly acceptable.

    Looking at EJ, I noticed they actually have rupture stated as 1+. Do you think the wording could be changed to "4+ rupture when you can, but if it's falling off throw whatever combo points you have into keeping it up" kind of thing? That energy gain (and damage) is just amazing, I want to make sure the new guys don't underestimate its value.
    Hahahahahahaha I know right? Someone who listens WTF is this?!?!?!?!?!?!!!!?!?!one?!?!?

    As for the rupture I have always disagreed with that 1+ thing. I have told any rogue who has asked me that using less then 4+ is a waste because you'll just have to refresh it again after the next envenom. Better to have a full rupture running so that you get more envenoms off. That's just my opinion though (Here's that debate you were looking for before :P )

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Hizzy View Post
    Hahahahahahaha I know right? Someone who listens WTF is this?!?!?!?!?!?!!!!?!?!one?!?!?

    As for the rupture I have always disagreed with that 1+ thing. I have told any rogue who has asked me that using less then 4+ is a waste because you'll just have to refresh it again after the next envenom. Better to have a full rupture running so that you get more envenoms off. That's just my opinion though (Here's that debate you were looking for before :P )
    I think what it really comes down to is that, using less than 4+ IS a waste, since you shouldn't really have issues getting up the 4 combo points between ruptures. There are a few times through RNG that you're forced into crappy decisions between capping, or envenoming and having to get CPs back up for rupture though. The thing about rupture is that the energy gain and the damage make it worthwhile to have it up for that little bit. The damage loss isn't too significant, unless you count the damage lost from the lack of energy gain too. That's why, especially for a simple guide, I'd state that your goal is to get up a good rupture, but sometimes you just need it up. I've found when I don't put it up even for those few seconds the slower energy gain eats away at me for getting the CPs to put up the good one. And if that lines up with SND running low, I just die a little inside.

  20. #20
    Deleted
    What's wrong with the EJ guide?

    I don't mean to discourage people from helping, but using a guide based on RNG ridden raid data rather than one with actual calculations feels a bit, fruitless?

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