DK's healing should be fixed, not WoG

[Abandon]

I don't really think that reducing their self-healing ability, thereby lowering their "block" mechanic because they can solo things you can't is a very good suggestion. I have yet to see Warriors on the Paladin forums crying that you can solo Magtheridon and get 500g a week, because of your self-healing and class mechanics. Also, didn't they put the cooldown on Word of Glory because of PVP concerns? And they are breaking Blood in PVP by making Blood Shield only work in Blood Presence, as opposed to Frost and Unholy which they currently use due to Glyph of Dark Succor.

It's interesting how everyone hates homogenization until someone else can do something they can't...

[CrunkJuice5]

Originally Posted by SurrealNight
Like so many other classes have experienced, enjoy PVP changes that affect PVE.

im sure blood dks are more enjoying being kited around in pvp because they dont have deaths advance talent.which is why the majority of dks who pvp are unholy

[Alucard666]

Why do idiots keep posting the same shit with no idea how the class mechanics even work.

Paladins have shields, DK's use Death Strike to help mitigate the difference in damage they take, which is significantly more than a Pally.
Stop whining and realize that this game is not balanced around PVP, and in fact most changes and nerfs to PVP significantly change PVE, rarely the other way around.\

By the way, Pally's were soloing Slabhide long before this video came out to try and farm the mount. And the DK in question is also using Glyph of Succor in UH presence to create Blood Shields, which, suprise surprise, is getting changed in 4.1 due to, you guessed it, PVP.

THIS...all retards should read this,before making idiotic threads about a class who obviously don't know shit about how it function!!!

User was infracted for this post.

[khatsoo]

The bosses he soloed aren't constantly hitting you.. so you got more time to heal than a Paladin would be mitigating anything.
It just doesn't make sense to complain about DK tanks, they're fine now, or at least I enjoy them and find them compensated (if they got better tools for soloing or doing old content it's another story, Feral tanks got their moment too, as many others).

[seam]

Has it been posted yet that they ARE nerfing DK healing in PvP? Kinda?

No Blood Shield in Frost/Unholy pres. That's pretty big for Blood PvP.

Unless you are saying to nerf DK healing in PvE as a tank because they can solo stuff. In which case:
LOL
Yeah! Lets make arguably the weakest tank even weaker!

[Demonidze]

NO single class in game has such nice self heals as blood dk... but its all about how blood dks work at the end, they have no shield, thus, no block... so it has to be compensated with something... so here you go, loads of self heals.

[Rogrux]

I don't dislike DKs because of some supposed overpowered who-cares. I dislike DKs because they were a bad idea in the first place.

[Saicam]

Yall do realize that Slab and Ozru are the most easiest bosses if you can avoid the mechanics? Neither hit very hard, only their big specials do and if you can avoid those then you win! Been plenty of times on pugs where the heals went down and i survived no problem on my Pally, Bear, and DK tank, how you ask? Because I knew how to do the fight and avoid stuff.

[Battlemaster]

The biggest problem is what happens to death strike in pvp

The way death strike works is it heals you for a % of the damage taken within the last 5 seconds, OR a % of max hp, whichever is higher. The problem comes in that when DKs are not in actual tanking gear, they take considerably more damage than what death strike is made for, meaning it heals for ridiculous amounts. Good DKs will chain their CDs to reduce damage taken while they wait for their runes to refresh, then they will death strike again, and rotate CDs between Death strikes. ... this, in effect, makes it so that they are either healing themselves for ridiculous amounts, or taking substantially reduced damage.

[CrunkJuice5]

Yall do realize that Slab and Ozru are the most easiest bosses if you can avoid the mechanics?

i dont know maybe things have changed since heroics got nerfed.but i think ozruk was one of the heroic bosses pugs wiped the most on

[seam]

The biggest problem is what happens to death strike in pvp

The way death strike works is it heals you for a % of the damage taken within the last 5 seconds, OR a % of max hp, whichever is higher. The problem comes in that when DKs are not in actual tanking gear, they take considerably more damage than what death strike is made for, meaning it heals for ridiculous amounts. Good DKs will chain their CDs to reduce damage taken while they wait for their runes to refresh, then they will death strike again, and rotate CDs between Death strikes. ... this, in effect, makes it so that they are either healing themselves for ridiculous amounts, or taking substantially reduced damage.

It's 20% of the damage taken in the last 5 seconds, assumeing pvp gear gives, what, 130k(?) life, the max heal you can get is 26k...and that's if you take 130k damage in the last 5 seconds.

Edit: I guess it could go higher if you take 129k, DS once, get healed, and take another 129k all in the span of 5 seconds...but that's not likely in Arena at all. Maybe AV though?

Granted you get a shield, but that'll go away in 4.1.

i dont know maybe things have changed since heroics got nerfed.but i think ozruk was one of the heroic bosses pugs wiped the most on

He hits for nothing, really. He's hard because tanks like to screw up =\

[Confessor Kahlan]

i dont know maybe things have changed since heroics got nerfed.but i think ozruk was one of the heroic bosses pugs wiped the most on

It is, because people dont know how to avoid the mechanics, and like to get knocked into the mobs on the side.

[Djuntas]

All this disccusion is fine but I just want a offical blizzard statement how they can justify DKs clearly overpowerd self-healing. If I could heal as good as DKs but not have my savage defens anymore.. FINE BY ME!

[Tanyn]

I just believe they balance for PvE without regards to how it affects the nuances of PvP. They'll see it eventually and even it out. I find it more of a detriment to Retribution PvP than I do most other things. I didn't see an issue with the heals beyond the procs from the Eternal Glory talent. If they put a cooldown on the proc it would of probably fixed the issue instead of putting a cooldown on the spell itself. It takes quite a few talents to make WoG really effective, which is a nice way of making it have a cost. We do sacrifice DPS for it (as Retribution) and in turn that should be enough. Hopefully something is done before the release of 4.1.

[Bysu]

All this disccusion is fine but I just want a offical blizzard statement how they can justify DKs clearly overpowerd self-healing. If I could heal as good as DKs but not have my savage defens anymore.. FINE BY ME!

You also forgot superior avoidance (between 3-7% depending on weapon rune used), and anything between 13-15k extra armor when compared to blood DKs.

I think people has a misconception here; and like others have mentioned, the reason why those bosses can be soloed is because they have lots of downtime in their direct attacks:

- Ozruk will stop attacking every 15 seconds or so to cast either of his 2 abilities, giving you plenty of time to create a gap between you and the boss to minimize melee damage.

- Slabhide has a huge downtime on direct damage every time he flies in the air, and while channeling his aoe.

- Summarizing, if you know how to move around to avoid big spikes of damage and buy time for your cooldowns it becomes doable, but even then, it has it's limits; as you can see he makes sure to have downed Slabhide before Ozruk enters his enrage phase, at which point damage would be unhealable by himself.

Even taking all aspects into account there were moments in the video when the guy almost died (dropped to 5% health or less), and to succeed at the feat it requires lots of planning. DK tanking is based in making decisions on the fly, as if a warrior or paladin had a 5 sec cd button to decide when to "block" an attack, yet if you choose the wrong moment it could make the difference between success and failure in this particular attempt.

Finally, Death Strike healing is balanced around the fact that DKs are by far the tanks that take the most damage, the ones with the least armor (by a huge margin; 6-7k compared to warriors and paladins, and up to 15k when compared to druids), avoidance comparable to warriors and paladins yet inferior to druids. But most of all, Death Strike healing, and in consequence, Blood Shield mitigation, is based on user capabilities... Bad DKs won't see over 20k DS heals, because they just spam the ability mindlessly, and yet to achieve 30k+ self heals requires skill since you have to dance with fire, and recognize the moment when you can take that much damage to boost your DS. Because mitigation mechanics are built into a RNG for the other tanking classes, there isn't really a skill requirement for it to do it's magic, while with DKs, since it depends highly on usage it has to be balanced around the average user, which of course this man is not.

P.D.: also please bear in mind that things like Blood shield or Savage defense do not downscale like regular shield block does (where you block x% of damage no matter how hard the hit is), so being clearly overgeared for the content represents an advantage from a survival point of view.

[Khaosknight]

DK healing is OP for soloing, so fucking what? It's soloing, has no effect on the rest of the game, and if blizz balanced around solo capabilities of a class, then this game would look very different.

As a DK who tanks for my guild on heroic encounters, I'd be perfectly fine with a nerf to DK healing, as long as they buff our avoidance while they are at it, to compensate in pve. Blood Shield and healing is our version of block, without it, we're screwed. Just the other day on heroic halfus, I pulled 11k healing per second, purely through self healing with all of my cooldowns, but i still get stomped by heroic bosses. Its not OP, its just different. I'd trade 11k healing per second in a heartbeat for its equivalent in avoidance or block, if only to just stop all the QQ about blood being OP.

[Deleted]

i dont know maybe things have changed since heroics got nerfed.but i think ozruk was one of the heroic bosses pugs wiped the most on

Umm that's only cause they failed at the mechanic and had nothing to do about how hard the boss hits. In fact it hardly hits the tank......

[Jervaise]

show me a Blood DK soloing raid bosses in proper gear/spec/glyphs then I'll accept there is an issue. You guys think that those people who solo stuff go in there with full tanking set, trying to keep agro and staying within blood presence.

They use the class mechanics to overcome harder achievements, which are not very realistic to do in a raid environment with proper speccing/glyphing etc.

It sucks that other tank classes can't do such cool stuff in other presences etc, but before posting know that no DK comes to tank a raid with those specifications.

What you really do is "hey i wanna be cool i wanna solo heroic bosses too!"

who the hell cares about that?

get an idea first...

[Senathor]

So why do our "uber fat mitigation shield" doesn't make us able to solo 2 HC boss at the same time or even 10% of an actual raid boss (Alakir) ?

First of all, when a Blood DK does something solo, they often ignore Heart Strike as they need all the runes for Death Strike healing. In groups they'll use Heart Strike because they need to aggro more than 1 target, so they do less healing. Often some DK's also do more healing as they got a special glyph for Unholy and Frost presence, in the next patch if you aren't in Blood Presence you won't get any absorbtion shield. In raids DK's also take more damage than other tanks, their healing and shield is needed. A Protection paladin don't heal as much as the DK's, but they dodge more. And when it comes to doing things solo, then yes, they might be too good, but WoW is not based on doing dungeons solo. And those DK's you see on Youtube and on MMO, are really good, they've got scrolls, flasks, potions, drums(4 % kings) etc. I hope you understand what I mean.

---------- Post added 2011-04-20 at 10:32 PM ----------

Umm that's only cause they failed at the mechanic and had nothing to do about how hard the boss hits. In fact it hardly hits the tank......

Yes I totaly agree with you, the people that die on that boss are very often bad players that ruin the game for the rest of us.

---------- Post added 2011-04-20 at 10:33 PM ----------

After watching Raegwyn's new video, where he soloes two bosses in Stonecore HC, I was left wondering why blizzard plans on nerfing Word of Glory. Apparantly protection paladin's have too much healing through WoG, yet I would NEVER be able to solo two bosses in any HC, probably not even one boss alone. For those who haven't seen the video, it is currently on the front page of MMO Champion, so check it out.

And blizzard plans on increasing the healing done by Death Strike in 4.1 as well. I belive that the blizzard dev team has a few things they need to reconsider for patch 4.1, at least when it comes to Death Knights healing abilities compared to other tanks.

You should make a Blood DK and learn exactly why they do more healing when they solo things. You don't seem to know anything about Blood DK's.

[Deleted]

Block only lowers damage taken, death strike heals for 15% (glyphed).
If you're death strike heals out-perform the damage you're taking then you wont die, that's why DK's can solo stuff palas can't.

When it comes to actual raiding it's fine, only when boss damage is weak is it considered "op". (NO DK will get 15% every ds in a raid, only usable in frost/uh pres and doing that in a raid will get you /gkicked when the boss crits you).

29% (death strike + improved talent) of damage taken may sound like alot, but to get that heal and not just the 7% minimum you need to take 35% of your health in under 5 seconds, and will not be able to solo that much damage while in blood presence.

And the "buff" to dk healing is a lie, it's a tooltip fix nothing more.