1. #20741
    Quote Originally Posted by Mif View Post
    I made a thread
    I normally don't, but as the forum has gotten busier news now tends to get buried if it doesn't have a thread title to grab peoples attention.
    I saw But you made your thread at/nearly at the same time I made my post, and I made the comment about keeping characters before you, so hah!
    Plus, this is the one thread, even if it isn't needed anymore, it's still good to have it in one place (or at least, 1089 pages worth of one place )

    Quote Originally Posted by Ryngo Blackratchet View Post
    Yeah, Rhandric is right, as usual.

  2. #20742
    Quote Originally Posted by Haggerty View Post
    What characteristics would it require for you to consider it a proper MMO?
    Hm... gameplay hooks of a classic MMOs? Steep time reqs, primarily stat determinant gameplay and exclusion by commitment and/or difficulty. They were supposed to be games you played at the cost of all else.

    Would say Everquest, Vanguard, Lineage 2, Ultima Online, Eve, Radiant Arcana, Meridian 59, original Runescape, Shadowbane and Asheron's Call to be classic examples of the genre. While games like World of Warcraft and Guild Wars are further by degree from that gameplay. WOW less so than GW2 as the genre is appealing to broader & broader customers and more causal players iteratively.

    Kind of a personal call which you value more. I prefer the older style, but only because I find it more enjoyable. Not because the old tropes are inherently better than new styles like Global Agenda, APB or GW2.

    Quote Originally Posted by rhandric View Post
    Since when does combat style determine genre? I would agree at a sub-genre level (hotkey vs action vs hybrid) they differ, but which part of MMORPG is GW2 not? It's massively mutliplayer, it's online, it's a role playing game...I don't see it.
    Not strictly what I meant by GW2 not being a proper MMO by combat style. 2 different conversations here; combat style and classical MMOs.

    There is more ARPG in GW2 than MMORPG.

  3. #20743
    Quote Originally Posted by rhandric View Post
    I saw But you made your thread at/nearly at the same time I made my post, and I made the comment about keeping characters before you, so hah!
    Plus, this is the one thread, even if it isn't needed anymore, it's still good to have it in one place (or at least, 1089 pages worth of one place )
    The one thread is is always and forever!! It shall never leave us. ALL GLORY TO THE ONE THREAD!!!

  4. #20744
    The Insane DrakeWurrum's Avatar
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    Fencers has some rather specific and non-standard definitions for most things. Wikipedia says the following:

    Massively multiplayer online role-playing game (MMORPG) is a genre of role-playing video games in which a very large number of players interact with one another within a virtual game world.
    As in all RPGs, players assume the role of a character (often in a fantasy world) and take control over many of that character's actions. MMORPGs are distinguished from single-player or small multi-player RPGs by the number of players, and by the game's persistent world (usually hosted by the game's publisher), which continues to exist and evolve while the player is offline and away from the game.
    I would argue that GW2 is more of an MMORPG than any other MMORPG to date due to the fact that the persistent world really DOES continue to exist and evolve without you.
    I hope you haven't forgotten my role in this little story. I'm the leading man. You know what they say about the leading man? He never dies.

    If you give in to your impulses in this world, the price is that it changes your personality in the real world. The player and character are one and the same.

  5. #20745
    Drake, I agree with you completely, both on Fencers definitions and on GW2's classification.

    The only reason for long grinds and gating content is to provide income to the company. While having a lot to do in a game (especially an MMO) is paramount, it's only beneficial if that content is actually relevant. Making people spend 10 hours gathering mats for one single-use combat item adds nothing to the game except separating those who have time from those who don't. Providing content that is relevant and challenging no matter how much time you invest should be a good system.

    I guess what I'm trying to say is, making the game fun and engaging should be more important than making the player spend more time in the game for the sake of spending time in the game.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ryngo Blackratchet View Post
    Yeah, Rhandric is right, as usual.

  6. #20746
    Quote Originally Posted by DrakeWurrum View Post
    Fencers has some rather specific and non-standard definitions for most things. Wikipedia says the following:
    Neither of those wiki entries exclude games I mentioned. Though they are sorta broadly defining of MMO and RPG, respectively.

    The tag; "If you love MMOs, check out Guild Wars 2. If you hate MMOs, than you really want to check out Guild Wars 2." is fairly telling. As Anet were keen to put an emphasis on the latter.

    The attraction of players interested in action orientated combat, PVP primary and so forth is another telling indicator of GW2 not being properly an MMO as UO or EQ.

  7. #20747
    The Insane DrakeWurrum's Avatar
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    MMORPG is supposed to be a broadly defining genre.
    I hope you haven't forgotten my role in this little story. I'm the leading man. You know what they say about the leading man? He never dies.

    If you give in to your impulses in this world, the price is that it changes your personality in the real world. The player and character are one and the same.

  8. #20748
    Quote Originally Posted by Fencers View Post
    Neither of those wiki entries exclude games I mentioned. Though they are sorta broadly defining of MMO and RPG, respectively.

    The tag; "If you love MMOs, check out Guild Wars 2. If you hate MMOs, than you really want to check out Guild Wars 2." is fairly telling. As Anet were keen to put an emphasis on the latter.

    The attraction of players interested in action orientated combat, PVP primary and so forth is another telling indicator of GW2 not being properly an MMO as UO or EQ.
    Calling a certain MMO game a "proper" MMO and another not a proper MMO does disservice to the genre. Yes, GW2 isn't identical to its roots, but that would be the same as saying your PC isn't properly a computer because it doesn't take up a giant warehouse.

    The tag; "If you love MMOs, check out Guild Wars 2. If you hate MMOs, than you really want to check out Guild Wars 2." is telling. It tells players what it is (an MMO) while telling players what it isn't (a WoW/EQ clone).

    The gaming world is evolving.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ryngo Blackratchet View Post
    Yeah, Rhandric is right, as usual.

  9. #20749
    The gaming world is evolving.
    Or devolving depending on your POV.

    MMORPG is supposed to be a broadly defining genre.
    Would say that is true of MMOs. Not MMORPGs.

  10. #20750
    Quote Originally Posted by Fencers View Post
    Or devolving depending on your POV.
    I fail to see where someone would get this point of view. Would you care to enlighten us?
    ~Former Priest/Guild Wars 2 Moderator~
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  11. #20751
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Fencers View Post
    Or devolving depending on your POV.
    We can certainly all agree that it's changing.

    I personally think a bit of change will be... refreshing.

    Edit:

    Quote Originally Posted by Kelesti View Post
    I fail to see where someone would get this point of view. Would you care to enlighten us?
    I think Fencers is trying to get at the fact that a lot of people don't see anything wrong with the classic formula and they don't necessarily want all these 'improvements'. Some people really enjoy the grind and the system of old mmos and that's fine too.

  12. #20752
    Quote Originally Posted by Kelesti View Post
    I fail to see where someone would get this point of view. Would you care to enlighten us?
    I feel games are appealing to more vulgar tastes; http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...1#post16772269

  13. #20753
    Quote Originally Posted by Kallanna View Post
    I think Fencers is trying to get at the fact that a lot of people don't see anything wrong with the classic formula and they don't necessarily want all these 'improvements'. Some people really enjoy the grind and the system of old mmos and that's fine too.
    And those grinds are still found all over the place. Either the genre evolves in a positive way and holds future games up to a new standard, or if the community views it as a negative, it casts it aside (How many MMO's have been cast aside lately?).

    There's not really a devolution going on in this genre, as far as I can see.
    ~Former Priest/Guild Wars 2 Moderator~
    Now TESTING: ArcheAge (Alpha)
    Now PLAYING: MonoRed Burn (MtG Standard)
    Twitter: @KelestiMMO come say hi!
    ~When you speak, I hear silence. Every word a defiance~

  14. #20754
    Quote Originally Posted by Kallanna View Post
    I think Fencers is trying to get at the fact that a lot of people don't see anything wrong with the classic formula and they don't necessarily want all these 'improvements'. Some people really enjoy the grind and the system of old mmos and that's fine too.
    Actually, I enjoy the new ideas of modern MMOs- it's pretty great to have an FPS MMO, RTS MMO, action MMO, etc. Variety is the spice of life! I do enjoy say, EQ combat but would not enjoy it all the time w/o any other styles to contrast. Monotone is not interesting.

    That which I despise is the excessive hand holding/"yea, duh" instruction tags pasted over all the place & the gaming generation that had(s) fostered. Pretty common to all genres at this point incld. MMOs, natch.
    Last edited by Fencers; 2012-05-10 at 08:58 PM.

  15. #20755
    The Insane DrakeWurrum's Avatar
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    I just don't see how you can say that GW2 is not an MMORPG. If you mean it's not EQ, then sure, it's not EQ. But it's still an MMORPG by every definition of the genre. You may as well say that Final Fantasy is not an RPG because it's nothing like the RPGs that came before it.
    I hope you haven't forgotten my role in this little story. I'm the leading man. You know what they say about the leading man? He never dies.

    If you give in to your impulses in this world, the price is that it changes your personality in the real world. The player and character are one and the same.

  16. #20756
    Brewmaster Newbryn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fencers View Post
    Actually, I enjoy the new ideas of modern MMOs- it's pretty great to have an FPS MMO, RTS MMO, action MMO, etc. Variety is the spice of life! I do enjoy say, EQ combat but would not enjoy it all the time w/o any other styles to contrast. Monotone is not interesting.

    That which I despise is the excessive hand holding/"yea, duh" instruction tags pasted all the place & the gaming generation that had fostered. Pretty common to all genres at this point incld. MMOs, natch.
    I have to most definitely agree with you here what happened to learning as you go,its crazy how people are crying for tutorials on everything. I though the learning experience was about seeing what you did wrong and fixing it, this is a core principle of gaming and it seems to be getting thrown out.

  17. #20757
    Scarab Lord Loaf Lord's Avatar
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    The hand holding reminds me of this. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8FpigqfcvlM I do agree they're treating gamers like they're brain dead children when it comes to tutorials.

  18. #20758
    The Insane DrakeWurrum's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roggles View Post
    The hand holding reminds me of this. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8FpigqfcvlM I do agree they're treating gamers like they're brain dead children when it comes to tutorials.
    Reminds me of this, personally: http://www.collegehumor.com/video/62...uper-easy-mode
    I hope you haven't forgotten my role in this little story. I'm the leading man. You know what they say about the leading man? He never dies.

    If you give in to your impulses in this world, the price is that it changes your personality in the real world. The player and character are one and the same.

  19. #20759
    Scarab Lord Arkenaw's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roggles View Post
    The hand holding reminds me of this. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8FpigqfcvlM I do agree they're treating gamers like they're brain dead children when it comes to tutorials.
    That's because most gamers are brain dead children. (Or at least act like it)


  20. #20760
    I know this thread is GW2 (obviously), but I saw this on the WoW twitter and had to laugh:
    Cross-Realm Zones are coming to the Mists of #Pandaria beta. Read more about this new technology on the official site- http://ow.ly/aPLit
    Sound familiar? But with the normal one-off feel that WoW implementations of GW2 features have

    Quote Originally Posted by Ryngo Blackratchet View Post
    Yeah, Rhandric is right, as usual.

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