Guild Wars 2: The One Thread

[Svifnymr]

You sell raw mats(ancient wood/ore/...) to buy crafting mats(dowels/gs blade/...) to make finished goods (greatsword)

You're doing that because it's cheaper to craft that way.

I don't care about where your alts are, I'm saying that it's CHEAPER to sell the mats you get by gathering and selling those to buy INTERMEDIATE GOODS with.

Opportunity Cost is that I could be earning money while I'm doing the action of farming, so that money would net me more than the mats can be bought for. That's not the case here.

Now we're moving on to Dowels/ Inscriptions, which are often available for less than the cost of the mats would be. The reason they are, is because folks make them while leveling and then sell them when they no longer need them (having leveled), they lose money, the crafter that buys them "makes" money...

But I'm still using them for skill ups, so I'm losing out on that during the process. Now, the actual component pieces (axe blade, axe handle, whatnot) there is sometimes a slight discount on, and I'm sure it varies between models. In addition, these don't get me skill ups because I cannot make them on my artificer or huntsman. The only real issue there is that I can't park an alt at the TP and deposit the mats, it'd involve me running back and forth, so it depends on how many I might need and whether it's worth the trouble to save 1%. Especially when I ALREADY HAVE THE MATS or am getting them easily.

[Meledelion]

Opportunity Cost is that I could be earning money while I'm doing the action of farming, so that money would net me more than the mats can be bought for. That's not the case here.

No it's not... Please read the wikipedia page.
Your lack of knowledge makes this argument silly.

As for the rest, when you learn what opportunity costs really are you'll probably get where I'm coming from.

I ALREADY HAVE THE MATS

Which is of no importance, what you do with them is. You have two options, sell on TP or use when crafting. When you chose either option you lose the option of the other, if you chose to sell them you can no longer use them to craft and vice versa, that's opportunity cost: you lose the "opportunity" of using it. Or in short "choosing is losing".

[Svifnymr]

No it's not... Please read the wikipedia page

How about you just explain what in my latest post is somehow not to your liking rather than debating about the semantics of the phrasing used? Because seriously, this is entirely pointless that I have to keep defending my statement that leveling my weaponsmithing hasn't cost me much of anything yet.


On a more helpful note, has anyone done the math on the Deldrimmor Steel Ingot's or Spiritwood Plank as to whether they're worth making to sell? I made 3 of the steel and 2 of the planks, but ran out of the Soft Wood and that'll cost me over a gold for what I need, when the total piece is only 4g+

[Meledelion]

How about you just explain what in my latest post is somehow not to your liking rather than debating about the semantics of the phrasing used? Because seriously, this is entirely pointless that I have to keep defending my statement that leveling my weaponsmithing hasn't cost me much of anything yet.

Why would I point out every error in your thinking when I can just point out that your starting position is wrong? After your assumption falls everything else comes down like dominos. So after I pushed down that first block I can't bother with pushing down every other block on the road since they fall automatically.

Also it's not semantics at all, it's you not knowing what "opportunity cost" is when we've stated that as the base of your flaw. Ignorance != semantics. There's no discussion as to the meaning of "opportunity cost" which would've been clear had you read the first line in the wikipedia page I linked.

In short your statement "leveling my weaponsmithing hasn't cost me much of anything yet." is wrong because it cost you w/e you would've gotten from just selling your mats instead of using them to craft.

I'll use an example I've already used but w/e.

Let's say you have 500ori ore in your bank. You use all of those to level your weaponsmithing and nothing else.
Now you claim that leveling hasn't cost you anything (since you had the ore laying around anyway) which is not true.
It cost you the money that you could've gotten from selling it on TP.
So that would be at current prices 5.77s * 500 = 28g85s, that means leveling your weaponsmithing cost you 28g85s and not nothing.

[Svifnymr]

Why would I point out every error in your thinking when I can just point out that your starting position is wrong? After your assumption falls everything else comes down like dominos.

Ah, see, the point you're missing is a simple one, I didn't say I hadn't used any resources, was just remarking that I hadn't spent any money.

I was then told by two people that it doesn't mean I spent less, and that it actually means I spent more.

I have already replied for the breakdown, but you seem to ignore the fact I'm refining materials in order to get skillup's for my artificer/huntsman rather than just making materials strictly to make exotics to level things. You want to reduce it to a strict gold value exchange.

Again, viewing it in the medium of leveling weaponsmithing (and artificer/huntsman), it doesn't make sense to sell my orichalcum. If you want to use it as a measure of value, that's fine, but when the discussion starts with "I hate that it costs 200g" and I remark that I haven't spent anything yet, since I've got a lot of mats, that doesn't mean "I got it free!". It means that as part of an internet discussion I mentioned already having the stuff! It doesn't mean you guys need to go on and on about how the stuff I used has value, because it has no bearing on the discussion of how I leveled crafting, I need those mats either way and if I'd sold them when I gained them and bought them now, they would be more expensive.

So, again, let's say I have 500 ori in the bank. I use them to level crafting (shunting refinement off to artificer once it's no longer rewarding). I have spent resources but no gold.

I even said thusly:

Most of the mats I had accumulated while doing other things, so sure there's a "cost" to things, but it does in fact mean it costs less...

200g still seems a bit much as an estimate, but of course it's not like there's a standardized exchange rate for time, laurels, karma or whatnot.

So again, you're having an argument that seems to be based on stuff I didn't say, and the only way you're involving me is by selective quoting and ignoring my intent. You've already established in these threads that you won't accept someone just letting an argument slide without crowing about defeating them, so I'm not sure what else you want me to say, really.

[Fencers]

Group Finder is part of next patch, I believe, but.. what else? No clue. I enjoyed SAB the first time, but don't feel like it right now, so haven't done much of any. As I said about it before, I wouldn't mind SAB being permenant content, but I don't consider it part of the actual world. It's a mini-game/ extra thing and doesn't "count" for me.

Well, I enjoy SAB. It's just that like I am not gonna be in there all the time.

I hope there is a little more to the next patch than the already slated group finder. Such a feature has no relevance to me- though I am glad GW2 has such a feature for those that do like that style of play.

I just had this image in my head of "You have crafted Ascended Battle of Mount Doom Tapestry" and then clicking on it to dye all the little parts with dyes.

You could basically do that in one of the MMOs I played for years. It was a Taiwanese game that had full player and guild housing.

Creating a guild castle was most fun because guilds had to really work together for that. It took materials, crafting disciplines, gold and time. Players could mount boss trophy's [dragon heads, giant weapons, etc] from the raid bosses they defeated. There was furniture players could bring in, castle buildings like libraries and farms that could be plotted out and so forth. Also battlements.

All had purpose too. Like the farm gave more gathering mats, stables made mounts quicker for a time, library cleared xp debt, etc. Best of all is guilds could fight one another in GvG PVP that had a ladder ranking system.

Guilds won by sacking the actual castle of the opposing guild. So you could see your farm torched or walls breached & crumbled. Libraries overturned or the smith in ruin, etc.

I would just love for that type of expansive content to be possible in GW2. Which I am sure it is if Anet could find an appropriate gameplay hook for it.

Though like was said elsewhere, is it just a personal space that shares an entrance for everybody

From a technicality standpoint personal space that shares a similar means of entry for everyone is most likely. And easiest to implement.

Housing is usually character bound in all games I have played with such. Also unlikely to change should it ever happen in GW2. And I am sure there will be furniture of varying sizes to accommodate all character models just like Rift, Aion, EQ, RA, SWG, Ryzom or FE offer.

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Have you seen the video for Wildstar's player housing? Just curious how it compares to what you've experienced before.

I have seen it. Seems pretty cool. About on par with the more ambitious player housing I have seen in games.

The warplots thing is the most interesting workaround. Though Eastern MMO players have had a penchant for GvG and PVP centric Castle/Building raiding for years. W*'s warplots seem more novel than simply fighting over a building.

Though the actual personal house building itself seems less intricate than Rift or SWG.

[Meledelion]

How can you not understand that the resources you use are WORTH money?

Ah, see, the point you're missing is a simple one, I didn't say I hadn't used any resources, was just remarking that I hadn't spent any money.

Those resources are worth something mate. As I've stated a couple of times now, the money you Could've gotten from selling those resources is the money you've spent.

I was then told by two people that it doesn't mean I spent less, and that it actually means I spent more.

You did indirectly spend more. If you look up a crafting guide you'll notice it says to buy stuff like "Iron axe blade, Iron dagger blade, darksteel hammer head, bronze dagger hilt, small soft haft, large green haft,..." this happens because it's cheaper to buy those than it would be to buy the ores/wood involved in the making of that stuff. It's better to sell mats and buy those intermediate goods.

I have already replied for the breakdown, but you seem to ignore the fact I'm refining materials in order to get skillup's for my artificer/huntsman rather than just making materials strictly to make exotics to level things. You want to reduce it to a strict gold value exchange.

Yes because value is assigned according to equivalent worth.
Refining mats to level is fine and dandy but yo can level just as fine (or better) just by using discoveries...

Again, viewing it in the medium of leveling weaponsmithing (and artificer/huntsman), it doesn't make sense to sell my orichalcum. If you want to use it as a measure of value, that's fine, but when the discussion starts with "I hate that it costs 200g" and I remark that I haven't spent anything yet, since I've got a lot of mats, that doesn't mean "I got it free!". It means that as part of an internet discussion I mentioned already having the stuff! It doesn't mean you guys need to go on and on about how the stuff I used has value, because it has no bearing on the discussion of how I leveled crafting, I need those mats either way and if I'd sold them when I gained them and bought them now, they would be more expensive.

It does since you can buy the intermediate goods cheaper 80% of the time than it would be to craft those intermediate goods.

You again say "it hasn't cost me anything yet" which is false since the items you used are worth something. Where you get the mats from doesn't matter at all, what I'm trying to explain is that regardless of if you've "farmed" the mats or bought them straight of the TP they always will cost something (due to opportunity cost).

So, again, let's say I have 500 ori in the bank. I use them to level crafting (shunting refinement off to artificer once it's no longer rewarding). I have spent resources but no gold.

How can you not understand that resources = gold? If I have 20g's worth of ore, I have 20g...

So again, you're having an argument that seems to be based on stuff I didn't say, and the only way you're involving me is by selective quoting and ignoring my intent. You've already established in these threads that you won't accept someone just letting an argument slide without crowing about defeating them, so I'm not sure what else you want me to say, really.

First, you only talk about the opportunity cost of time in your quote, which we're not discussing at all.
Second, it doesn't mean it costs less.
Third, I'm quoting the parts that are wrong and I'm quoting those in paragraphs, how that can be selective quoting is beyond me.

__________________________________________

Let's again break it down very easily.
You have 200orichalcum ore, but 0gold0silver0copper, and you use that (and only that) to level your weaponsmithing.
Now there's me, I have 0ori, but I have 20g, and use however much money I need(and only that) to level my weaponsmithing.

Here's my questions to you: Who spent more money to level weaponsmithing? And how much did each of us spend?

[Schalde]

Lol that math discussion haha

[Meledelion]

Lol that math discussion haha

The sad thing is that this math is basic and that the error in Svifnymr's reasoning is a very common one. This is econ 101 chapter 2 stuff which should be understandable by anyone.

I'll answer my own question since it's pretty easy
You'll have spent (the equivalent of) 10g8s1c.
I'll have spent 11g34c.

In this case Svifnymr would've been better off which is expected since we're dealing with raw goods (and we're completely ignoring the opportunity cost of time), once you look at intermediate goods (iron haft,...) it becomes clear that just using your raw goods will cost you more than buying specific mats.

The thing that needs to be driven home/understood is that regardless of what path you choose (gathering vs buying) it will always cost you money even if you use mats you've already got.

[Gray_Matter]

Given that the TP charges a fee, if the prices are even than you will get less money on the sale than you do when buying. In general the prices for buying will be higher than the prices for selling. Obviously prices fluctuate, but given that the current discussion seems to center on if I had sold it when I got it and it's actually more expensive now than then, it's not even there.

Anyway, it's not really worth an argument, is it?

Definitely worth an argument

The price to level was 210g. It's now 150g so selling a week back would have netted much more than it costs now. You also have the option of bidding to buy stuff which can be a lot less. Of course it's academic

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We're speaking of a specific process by which you gain the mats to level a craft for Ascended weapons, not the general environment of MMO's. The further along you get from the spike of folks buying, the cheaper it will get, for example. If we were talking about making money, I should be selling the stuff now (orichalcum and ancient wood) rather than using them.

It's not just about the cost of the raw mats. People are selling inscriptions below the raw cost so it's worthwhile to sell your raw mats and buy inscriptions if you want the cheapest way to level to 500.

Look at these pages:

http://gw2crafts.net/artificing_400.html
http://gw2crafts.net/huntsman_400.html
http://gw2crafts.net/weaponcraft_400.html

Take a look at how may processed items are used. In my case, I was buying some inscriptions for 3.5g on the day of the patch. Those same inscriptions cost 8g to make. In your case, it would have been best to sell the raw mats, buy some pre-made inscriptions and you would have probably saved 10g-20g.

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Sell my MATS to buy MATS? It's the same mats! I'm refining mats to increase my crafting skill.

I think that's where the problem is. The best way to level is to discover. There is a certain amount of refining of goods but ultimately, discovery gives you the best XP. That said, things have changed already so its not as lucrative to sell the mats and buy the refined stuff now so the point is moot.

[Svifnymr]

How can you not understand that resources = gold? If I have 20g's worth of ore, I have 20g...

How can you not understand that I already said that? How can you not understand what I'm saying when I've repeated myself over and over again and you continue to counter arguments I never made?

First, you only talk about the opportunity cost of time in your quote, which we're not discussing at all.

That was my error because I thought you were refering to the other discussion about farming vs buying. I already said as much.

Second, it doesn't mean it costs less.
Third, I'm quoting the parts that are wrong and I'm quoting those in paragraphs, how that can be selective quoting is beyond me.

You're ignoring that the purpose is to level the craft and that I am leveling the craft. You're ignoring that my point was that I already had materials and had not needed to buy anything. You're ignoring that I have repeatedly said that the materials have value, as does laurels/ karma/ time.

You're basically having an argument without actually responding to my situation.

Here's my questions to you: Who spent more money to level weaponsmithing? And how much did each of us spend?

Who spent more gold... is a different question than "who used the most resources" or "who leveled it for cheapest".
If you say "I bought a bunch of oric to level my skill" and I replied "luckily I already had some so didn't have to buy while pricing was high", would you then yell at me that I was spending gold without understanding economics?

[Svifnymr]

Definitely worth an argument

The price to level was 210g. It's now 150g so selling a week back would have netted much more than it costs now. You also have the option of bidding to buy stuff which can be a lot less. Of course it's academic

As I said, smart path would have been to sell my mats right when everyone was leveling to take advantage of the surge. I was more interested in getting rid of all my stacks of dust.

It's not just about the cost of the raw mats. People are selling inscriptions below the raw cost so it's worthwhile to sell your raw mats and buy inscriptions if you want the cheapest way to level to 500.

Look at these pages:

http://gw2crafts.net/artificing_400.html
http://gw2crafts.net/huntsman_400.html
http://gw2crafts.net/weaponcraft_400.html

I only looked at artificer, so if the others are different, there's that to factor in.
The guide says to make the inscriptions early on to level, my point is that I am not making them on my weaponsmith (who is at 460 now). I am making them on my artificer/ huntsman in order to level those other skills towards 425.

I DO always forget about the other stuff (potions or whatnot) in discovery.

The weapon parts I looked at didn't look that much cheaper than the mats to make them though.

I think that's where the problem is. The best way to level is to discover. There is a certain amount of refining of goods but ultimately, discovery gives you the best XP. That said, things have changed already so its not as lucrative to sell the mats and buy the refined stuff now so the point is moot.

Once you get past the initial leveling via refining, it's best to discover, what I mentioned was that I'm still refining for skill gains. Thus I still need orichalcum ore to refine. I admit I've not done the math to see if I could buy a bunch of orichalcum ore, refine it, sell the bars, and thus level to 425 via refining, but I don't think that was really suggested either way.

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If you had claimed "I leveled it for free" then yes. Which is what you did.

"The biggest cost for ascended items is leveling the damn crafting. 200g. Nuts."
"I haven't actually spent anything yet other than waypoint fees and themolytics, and I'm up to 458 weaponsmithing. I imagine it'll take some time progressing, but most of the stuff is farmable. "

I haven't spent anything yet. Obviously I've used mats, that's how crafting works. It wasn't a gift basket, which means I have the stuff.

[Meledelion]

I haven't spent anything yet. Obviously I've used mats, that's how crafting works. It wasn't a gift basket, which means I have the stuff.

How can you still not get that by using mats you've basically spent money?

[Svifnymr]

How can you still not get that by using mats you've basically spent money?

Seriously, you just skip the entire post where I talk about it?

To reiterate, I know mats/gold/laurels/whatever are resources and have a value, when I remark that I haven't spent anything out of pocket, that means I have not spent any gold, not that what I used has no value.

How else can I explain the same thing to you over and over again?

[Meledelion]

By stopping with repeating the faulty things namely:
"The biggest cost for ascended items is leveling the damn crafting. 200g. Nuts."
"I haven't actually spent anything yet other than waypoint fees and themolytics, and I'm up to 458 weaponsmithing. I imagine it'll take some time progressing, but most of the stuff is farmable. "

I haven't spent anything yet. Obviously I've used mats, that's how crafting works. It wasn't a gift basket, which means I have the stuff. "

[Lane]

Hey, I finally got my first character birthday present. Is that buff you get from opening the package or is it a consumable inside the package?

Unrelated, how should I spend my WvW points? Like, none of these options look good (noting that I rarely if ever use siege).

[Svifnymr]

By stopping with repeating the faulty things namely:
"The biggest cost for ascended items is leveling the damn crafting. 200g. Nuts."
"I haven't actually spent anything yet other than waypoint fees and themolytics, and I'm up to 458 weaponsmithing. I imagine it'll take some time progressing, but most of the stuff is farmable. "

I haven't spent anything yet. Obviously I've used mats, that's how crafting works. It wasn't a gift basket, which means I have the stuff. "

Again, tell me where that statement is in error? I haven't spent any money yet, just items I already had.

Did I say the items have no value, or that they were free, or any other thing you've made it in to?

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Hey, I finally got my first character birthday present. Is that buff you get from opening the package or is it a consumable inside the package?

Consumable in the box, it lasts for 24 hours of playtime once used.

[Meledelion]

I don't get how this is so hard. Items=money so by saying "I haven't spent any money yet only items" you're contradicting yourself.

[zed zebes]

Hey, I finally got my first character birthday present. Is that buff you get from opening the package or is it a consumable inside the package?

Unrelated, how should I spend my WvW points? Like, none of these options look good (noting that I rarely if ever use siege).

Well, since Arrow Carts are still a big part of most siege, I'd say spend your first points into Arrow Cart mastery. However, it's not as mandatory as it once was. The Mastery that lets you build faster is also good, as well as take supply faster.

The Guard Killer and Guard defense that eventually grant you the stacking buffs for killing guards is pretty powerful, but it takes a devoted amount of time to rank up and get them.

The flameram mastery might be worth it, but too early to tell.

[draykorinee]

This whole spending thing really has been one of the most boring and pedantic discussions. I struggle to spend my WvW points, like you say nothing jumps out initially, I tend to go for carts.