1. #33141
    Honestly, one of my biggest gripes of the whole LS (aside from the overall extremely shallow depth of the plot) was the fact that the most xenophobic races and organizations in Tyria were brought together in one big happy band of evil. Anet completely threw their lore out the window in order to tell some half-assed side story. I don't care what excuse they gave us (if they even gave one at all), some of those races would have never teamed up with anyone, let alone each other. It just went to show Anet's lack of storytelling abilities this past year.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Svifnymr View Post
    Delusional is not the best way to describe a different opinion.

    The Living Story was fine, for what it was, it had it's good and bad for season 1, but it drove the gameplay updates with a nice cohesive narrative. There were changes in style and pace as they went, and I'm sure they learned a lot on what they should have done.

    Continually throughout season 1, folks have complained about not knowing even some of the most basic information presented in game, let alone the complaints that some of it was revealed in short stories directly linked from the launcher. Sure they can improve how they deliver information, but they also can't force folks to learn stuff.
    That bolded part is a direct contradiction to what the LS actually was. Cohesive is not the word most people would use to describe the LS. In fact, if that word pops into your head when thinking about the LS, then I don't even know what to tell you.
    Last edited by Zephyr Storm; 2014-03-30 at 11:27 PM.

  2. #33142
    Quote Originally Posted by Lane View Post
    I just saw this thread on the official forums and it's amazing. :P Definitely read the OP's "infographic".
    Heh. Amusing.

    I did most of the living story content and yet would be at a lost to explain it all coherently. Aside to say, "Wunderkind goes mad. Initiates roundabout method to resolve source of madness w/ unlimited funding & henchmen."

    A lot of the critique I had/have with Anet's storytelling in GW2 is how strikingly juvenile it all is. All of it seems written for an audience of 12 year olds.

    Now I don't mind pulp or an appeal to broad audiences. However, I just don't think it's interesting, remarkable or even worth respect. I don't honestly know why one would bother. It's a shockingly misguided sense of development and consumption.

    Just very, Low Art.

  3. #33143
    Quote Originally Posted by Zephyr Storm View Post
    Honestly, one of my biggest gripes of the whole LS (aside from the overall extremely shallow depth of the plot) was the fact that the most xenophobic races and organizations in Tyria were brought together in one big happy band of evil. Anet completely threw their lore out the window in order to tell some half-assed side story. I don't care what excuse they gave us (if they even gave one at all), some of those races would have never teamed up with anyone, let alone each other. It just went to show Anet's lack of storytelling abilities this past year.
    I still think it was meant as "a tiny faction of X and Y work togethor", but of course it comes in endless waves so players can kill them over and over again for months.

    I mean, the aetherblades, let's consider them all alone. A pirate band, how many ships would they really have? 2-3? 4-5? Yet we slaughter the pirates by the thousands and they never really explain if they're small or large or whatever. If a couple hundred dredge engineers were convinced to work with a couple hundred flame legion, it might seem workable, but the numbers presented have no independent scale, there's just thousands of them.

    That bolded part is a direct contradiction to what the LS actually was. Cohesive is not the word most people would use to describe the LS. In fact, if that word pops into your head when thinking about the LS, then I don't even know what to tell you.
    The story stuck the events together, it was cohesive, if you want to say it wasn't "nice", that's sort of opinion, but whatever. Either way, the events would have been just random invasions if the story had not joined them up in a singular event chain. If you don't even know what to tell me in regards to why it didn't, then it's not much of a discussion.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fencers View Post
    A lot of the critique I had/have with Anet's storytelling in GW2 is how strikingly juvenile it all is. All of it seems written for an audience of 12 year olds.
    Juvenile, comic book, and a lot of it was fan-fiction level. They DO have writers, but it felt like they let people direct things that weren't writers. They had no real sense of pacing, but was that caused by their lack of skill, or was it changing direction as they got into the 2 week cadence? Certainly nothing much happened in the first 3-4 months of Flame & Frost, and then there were updates that weren't directly linked, so... who knows.

    Now I don't mind pulp or an appeal to broad audiences. However, I just don't think it's interesting, remarkable or even worth respect. I don't honestly know why one would bother. It's a shockingly misguided sense of development and consumption.

    Just very, Low Art.
    It's certainly better than most quest text, though not of a caliber to drive a central narrative. As a means of driving the content, it worked decent enough (though I mean, Mad King was probably more fun/ engaging both years).

    I also wonder if they just forgot to mention anything about Super Adventure Box linking to Scarlets Holograms or something, but whatever.

  4. #33144
    It's certainly better than most quest text, though not of a caliber to drive a central narrative. As a means of driving the content, it worked decent enough (though I mean, Mad King was probably more fun/ engaging both years).
    I am not entirely sure about this. On a personal level, of course. I knew/know a ton of GW1 lore. I found GW1 one of the best MMOs at delivering narrative.

    However, I have almost no knowledge of GW2. The narrative is threadbare, sloppily delivered, convoluted and unimportant. Now that is not to say GW1 was written so well that it did not solicit the occasional chuckle or wince even. But GW1's lore, plotting and mythology never felt foolish or throwaway to me.

    The plot and gameplay in GW1 are far more harmonious. Whereas I don't give a care about any thing in GW2-- the gameplay, aside from being pretty good, feels divorced entirely of the narrative in GW2. There is literally no drive by contrast to GW1 where the gameplay is plot/story. Marvelous! Ideal, actually.
    Last edited by Fencers; 2014-03-31 at 12:52 AM.

  5. #33145
    Quote Originally Posted by Svifnymr View Post
    The story stuck the events together, it was cohesive, if you want to say it wasn't "nice", that's sort of opinion, but whatever. Either way, the events would have been just random invasions if the story had not joined them up in a singular event chain. If you don't even know what to tell me in regards to why it didn't, then it's not much of a discussion.
    I, along with many others, can agree that the narrative was NOT cohesive. At least not until we got very close to the end. And I'm sorry, but a plot that lasts over a year that ONLY becomes cohesive at the end is not a good design. If you think what Anet gave us over the course of the year was cohesive, then maybe you don't understand the definition of the word.

    LS was constantly being griped at for not making any sense or not explaining how two things went together. And we honestly didn't really have anything explained to us until when?.....November or December of last year? (and some would still say we didn't know even then, at least not enough considering how long and far we had gotten into the LS). And as a side note, no, short stories on the website or explanations buried in the official forums are NOT acceptable means of conveying a story in-game. If I wanted to read pages of text to find out a story, I'd read a book, not play a video game.

    The LS was VERY disjointed, with Anet all along stating "Just wait till the end! It will all make sense!" Well, guess what....that doesn't make for a very fun or entertaining environment in the mean time. The fact that Anet practically admitted to the story not making sense (just wait! it will eventually!) without actually saying it proves what I'm saying.
    Last edited by Zephyr Storm; 2014-03-31 at 01:17 AM.

  6. #33146
    Quote Originally Posted by Zephyr Storm View Post
    I, along with many others, can agree that the narrative was NOT cohesive. At least not until we got very close to the end. And I'm sorry, but a plot that lasts over a year that ONLY becomes cohesive at the end is not a good design. If you think what Anet gave us over the course of the year was cohesive, then maybe you don't understand the definition of the word.
    Maybe you don't understand the definition? You're saying the events were not tied togethor by the plot? That Flame & Frost wasn't tied to Southsun, wasn't tied to Aetherblades which wasn't tied to Queens Jubilee and so on? You're saying none of these events were linked?

    LS was constantly being griped at for not making any sense or not explaining how two things went together. And we honestly didn't really have anything explained to us until when?.....November or December of last year?
    Wait, so you think a book sucks if it doesn't explain the plot in the first chapter? It's true, we didn't know how the Dredge/ Charr tied into Scarlet's plot before Scarlet was introduced (except for a mention of a a lady behind it), then the aetherblades, we knew they were part of the stuff, but not what. Then the next update was Jubilee, which revealed Scarlet for all to see. So we didn't learn much background on her or her motives until the 3/4 mark, so that means we knew nothing?

    (and some would still say we didn't know even then, at least not enough considering how long and far we had gotten into the LS). And as a side note, no, short stories on the website or explanations buried in the official forums are NOT acceptable means of conveying a story in-game. If I wanted to read pages of text to find out a story, I'd read a book, not play a video game.
    It's been discussed on the forum before, so not worth going over again, but there is a world of difference between having to buy a book for lore, vs reading a free short story that is linked from the launcher. I'd prefer if the stuff was given over in game too, by all means, but that doesn't mean that the stuff doesn't exist just because it's a link to click instead of some NPC spouting the lines in the game.

    The LS was VERY disjointed, with Anet all along stating "Just wait till the end! It will all make sense!" Well, guess what....that doesn't make for a very fun or entertaining environment in the mean time. The fact that Anet practically admitted to the story not making sense (just wait! it will eventually!) without actually saying it proves what I'm saying.
    Definetly, they should have better pacing and remember that the format is not a book or tv show. By the same token, a lot of folks have no interest in the story and just want new things to click at for new rewards, so I'm not sure how much time/energy they can/should devote to the cutscenes and stuff. I don't think Anet is perfect by any means, and there's a lot of room for improvement, but it does feel like Anet is learning as they go.

    I'm really not sure how much "time" Anet has to learn this stuff though, as far as profit is concerned. Same with the big April 15th patch, lots of stuff is nice in it, but does it really matter for the overall health of the game? We'll see, not like it costs me anything else at this point.

  7. #33147
    Quote Originally Posted by Svifnymr View Post
    Maybe you don't understand the definition? You're saying the events were not tied togethor by the plot? That Flame & Frost wasn't tied to Southsun, wasn't tied to Aetherblades which wasn't tied to Queens Jubilee and so on? You're saying none of these events were linked?


    Wait, so you think a book sucks if it doesn't explain the plot in the first chapter? It's true, we didn't know how the Dredge/ Charr tied into Scarlet's plot before Scarlet was introduced (except for a mention of a a lady behind it), then the aetherblades, we knew they were part of the stuff, but not what. Then the next update was Jubilee, which revealed Scarlet for all to see. So we didn't learn much background on her or her motives until the 3/4 mark, so that means we knew nothing?


    It's been discussed on the forum before, so not worth going over again, but there is a world of difference between having to buy a book for lore, vs reading a free short story that is linked from the launcher. I'd prefer if the stuff was given over in game too, by all means, but that doesn't mean that the stuff doesn't exist just because it's a link to click instead of some NPC spouting the lines in the game.



    Definetly, they should have better pacing and remember that the format is not a book or tv show. By the same token, a lot of folks have no interest in the story and just want new things to click at for new rewards, so I'm not sure how much time/energy they can/should devote to the cutscenes and stuff. I don't think Anet is perfect by any means, and there's a lot of room for improvement, but it does feel like Anet is learning as they go.

    I'm really not sure how much "time" Anet has to learn this stuff though, as far as profit is concerned. Same with the big April 15th patch, lots of stuff is nice in it, but does it really matter for the overall health of the game? We'll see, not like it costs me anything else at this point.
    This is all way over your head isn't it?

    It's so easy for you to say "oh it was all connected and made perfect sense!" now that we actually DO know everything at the end of it all (hindsight is 20/20 after all). You can say that about ANY story at the end if the writer makes up enough BS to make it work. But during the process? No, it was delivered very poorly. And no, I don't expect to be told everything about the plot as we go along, otherwise that would make a very boring story. But the completely random and unconnected ways that Anet delivered LS season 1 was not what you can call cohesive. It really only started to become remotely cohesive after several months of everyone yelling at Anet for this shitty story telling.

    And once again, putting your game's story on a website instead of actually trying to incorporate it in-game somehow is lazy and terrible. Why people continue to defend Anet on that terrible decision is beyond me.

    And yes, we all know you are one of the people who are in love with this game. It shows. But at least try to be realistic in your arguments to defend it, mmkay?

    Mod edit: Please refrain from insulting other users of the forums.
    Last edited by Fencers; 2014-03-31 at 02:16 PM.

  8. #33148
    Quote Originally Posted by Zephyr Storm View Post
    This is all way over your head isn't it?
    You really can't reply without the personal attacks, can you?

    It's so easy for you to say "oh it was all connected and made perfect sense!" now that we actually DO know everything at the end of it all.
    I never said it makes perfect sense, or that it lacked flaws, I merely said it "drove the gameplay updates with a nice cohesive narrative". The living story was a framework to guide the game updates and link them together so it had the impression of an overall story rather than being just random islands dropped into the world. Southsun was at the start and was later tied into the story. The Bazaar? Also fit into the story, it didn't have to. They could have simply dropped it in with no explanation, but they tied them into the overall story.

    You can say that about ANY story at the end if the writer makes up enough BS to make it work. But during the process? No, it was delivered very poorly. And no, I don't expect to be told everything about the plot as we go along, otherwise that would make a very boring story. But the completely random and unconnected ways that Anet delivered LS season 1 was not what you can call cohesive. It really only started to become remotely cohesive after several months of everyone yelling at Anet for this shitty story telling.
    What was random about it? That not every update was a direct escalation of Scarlets plan? "Several months" is a bit vague, do you think it became clear when the aetherblades hit LA during Dragonbash? (late June) What do you even consider cohesive? Now that you know the overall plot, what information would have been better presented earlier in the year?

    Ignoring some indirect stuff, we have Flame & Frost (Jan-Mar) introducing the Molten Alliance and ending with mention of a mystery woman behind it. Aetherblades introduced with Dragonbash (June) and naming scarlet as behind it all, followed by Queens Jubilee (Aug) where we ended up meeting her directly and learning that she had a background with Asura. From there the mostly useless background poured out.

    Maybe it was the indirect stuff, where things just went on that had no direct mention of her that threw people off.

    Where the narrative failed was in justifying her capability, among other things, not in failing to unify the events in an overarching arc.

  9. #33149
    Quote Originally Posted by Lane View Post
    I just saw this thread on the official forums and it's amazing. :P Definitely read the OP's "infographic".
    I agree with all of the points from the infographic, especially point #15. I think the future of living story does look bright, I think they really started to pull things together at the end. I just hope they don't forget what they've learned towards the end, I want them to progress and improve, not regress back to where they were at the beginning of this whole thing.

  10. #33150
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zephyr Storm View Post
    And yes, we all know you are one of the people who are in love with this game. It shows. But at least try to be realistic in your arguments to defend it, mmkay?
    A hilarious comment coming from you, who is all vitrol and contempt for most of the things done in the game. Why is it so hard for you to have a civilized conversation about gw2? Are you really that incapable of seeing in more than black and white? Just because someone likes/loves the game doesn't mean they are incapable of seeing reality. Svifnymr is may love the game, but it isn't like he is blindly championing it.

  11. #33151
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaelwryn View Post
    A hilarious comment coming from you, who is all vitrol and contempt for most of the things done in the game. Why is it so hard for you to have a civilized conversation about gw2? Are you really that incapable of seeing in more than black and white? Just because someone likes/loves the game doesn't mean they are incapable of seeing reality. Svifnymr is may love the game, but it isn't like he is blindly championing it.
    Maybe not blindly championing it, but at least in enough of a daze over it that the obvious flaws and mistakes are being flat out ignored for "wow, Anet is doing amazing!"

    I have zero issue with people loving a game. What bugs me is when people seem to love a game so much that they completely look beyond the many flaws with it, to the point of coming up with what is in essence, personal opinions that they tote as fact. Svifnymr may think that the LS was cohesive, but the multitude of people saying otherwise strongly disagrees with him. One merely needs to look at the official forums and how people have responded now that LS season 1 is over.
    Last edited by Zephyr Storm; 2014-03-31 at 02:41 AM.

  12. #33152
    Quote Originally Posted by Zephyr Storm View Post
    It really only started to become remotely cohesive after several months of everyone yelling at Anet for this shitty story telling.
    I enjoy GW2 but their writers are terrible. I wish they would just fire the lot of them and hire some decent fantasy writers. It's the only thing I dislike about the game and unfortunately is a big problem.
    "you can't be serious!!" - yes actually I am.

  13. #33153
    Quote Originally Posted by MrSerious View Post
    I enjoy GW2 but their writers are terrible. I wish they would just fire the lot of them and hire some decent fantasy writers. It's the only thing I dislike about the game and unfortunately is a big problem.
    I know right?

  14. #33154
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    Levelling is so passe. Does GW2 have a bypass mechanic like a level 90 boost in WoW?

  15. #33155
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zephyr Storm View Post
    Maybe not blindly championing it, but at least in enough of a daze over it that the obvious flaws and mistakes are being flat out ignored for "wow, Anet is doing amazing!"
    Where exactly did he say anything remotely like that? Damn, you are blind.

  16. #33156
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaelwryn View Post
    Where exactly did he say anything remotely like that? Damn, you are blind.
    You haven't been keeping up with the discussion have you? The overall quality and cohesiveness of the LS season 1. Please stop responding if you at least can't take the time to read the necessary material to formulate a valid response.

    And I'm sorry, but trying to have a discussion with someone on the flaws of GW2 that has a picture of Grenth as their avatar and their location set to Divinity's Reach really is kind of pointless. Anything I say, I'm sure will be met with "nuh uh! you're wrong because of this! you're such a hater!".

  17. #33157
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    Quote Originally Posted by profanity79 View Post
    Levelling is so passe. Does GW2 have a bypass mechanic like a level 90 boost in WoW?
    Not directly, no. But you can speed level to cap in a few hours with crafting and there's the experience scrolls and tomes of knowledge that give 20 or 1 levels.
    Valar morghulis

  18. #33158
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zephyr Storm View Post
    You haven't been keeping up with the discussion have you? The overall quality and cohesiveness of the LS season 1. Please stop responding if you at least can't take the time to read the necessary material to formulate a valid response.
    I have taken the time to read. Sure, the quality of the living story wasn't omg amazing, but it was an ok story. It also did for the most part weave together. There were some shaky parts, sure, but all in all the story was cohesive. Was it the greatest? No, it definitely could use some work but there was a cohesive story.

  19. #33159
    Quote Originally Posted by Zephyr Storm View Post
    Maybe not blindly championing it, but at least in enough of a daze over it that the obvious flaws and mistakes are being flat out ignored for "wow, Anet is doing amazing!"
    Nyah, labeling me a fanboy while ignoring what I say and how I criticize the game is soooo different, right?

    I have zero issue with people loving a game. What bugs me is when people seem to love a game so much that they completely look beyond the many flaws with it, to the point of coming up with what is in essence, personal opinions that they tote as fact. Svifnymr may think that the LS was cohesive, but the multitude of people saying otherwise strongly disagrees with him. One merely needs to look at the official forums and how people have responded now that LS season 1 is over.
    You read a post of mine where I say the living story was badly written, but did provide a cohesive framework for the updates and you want to focus on the word cohesive to argue that I'm blindly in love with the game and ignoring any faults in the story?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaelwryn View Post
    I have taken the time to read. Sure, the quality of the living story wasn't omg amazing, but it was an ok story. It also did for the most part weave together. There were some shaky parts, sure, but all in all the story was cohesive. Was it the greatest? No, it definitely could use some work but there was a cohesive story.
    Back in the old days of D&D, we used to call them EgoNPCs, but there are a ton of phrases to describe the same concept. Scarlet was this uber villain, which they totally failed to realisitically explain HOW she did this stuff. The one lady from Anet is mostly good at explaining various elements of the story, but then starts gushing about Scarlet like the pet-project she was.

    I think Anet has perfectly capable writers, but that some of the folks over seeing the plot just had blind spots. I'd imagine a lot of the writing staff is also compartmentalized with oversight from the same folks...

    But Scarlet is dead, and Taimi is great, Braham and Rox have improved greatly, so I'm optimistic for the next season.

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    On a completely different subject, I've decided that MMO's need to have reverse agro systems as well. When my level 80 asura comes running through the bandits decked in Hellfire plate and fire oozing from every pore, maybe they should run away rather than attacking me...

  20. #33160
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    Eh, I think they did ok with S1 Living Story. It started out weak, you could tell they didn't have many people working on it as they were still transitioning/reorganizing the teams from launch but they really started knocking it out of the park end of last year.

    I know my feelings changed to the whole Scarlet thing during the Marionette patch when we got to see her secret hideout and find the pieces and listen to her journal. I started feeling what I can only describe as empathy for her, which I did not expect.

    Overall I give it a B- (weak start, smashing ending) and now that they are on track I can't wait to see what S2 will bring.

    (But seriously, if I want great literature I'll go to the library and not look to an MMO for it)
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