Guild Wars 2: The One Thread

[Valeron]

LS "getting better" over time is not really a good thing either. It's kinda not worth respecting actually.

so it shouldn't be improved eh? improvement is not a good thing?

[Fencers]

So when is the story "good enough" for gameplay, rather than being "great" and taking too much in the way of resources.

Well. Guild Wars 1, The Old Republic, The Secret World.

Even if one "feels" there is too much story, all of those mentioned are an almost ideal integration of story in the service of gameplay. It doesn't necessarily matter if some dislike those stories. Their cause in relation to gameplay is demonstrably excellent.

so it shouldn't be improved eh? improvement is not a good thing?

Improvement is fine. Improvement over the course of a unified work is just an uneven and/or poorly produced work.

"The first 10 songs the band recorded are terribly mixed. But they really improved the mixing of the last 3 songs for the album!"
"Yea, that's just a badly mixed record."

Almost categorically you are telling me the LS was produced unevenly by saying "it improved over time". So what is it? Is it a well produced work or a sloppily produced work?

Why would I respect the latter if better or more consistent is present for consumption and consideration?

[draykorinee]

I think it's better to judge it based on the recent updates rather than those from over a year ago. It's not like they will have the next updates by going back to what they did.

I'm not passing judgement on future updates, I'm passing judgement on the Living story, so no, starting from the beginning is a good place to start any judgement.

- - - Updated - - -

the corpses/ signs was a year ago, the gameplay since was much better organized with a theme. The battle for lions arch was a good design overall, I think, marred by redesigns and the overly long Scarlet battle. So I mean, again, I think they improved and that they learned. What started with a D progressed to a B, ended with a B-, so hopefully next setup will start strong and be more polished and fun consistently.

Yes, things improved, some were good, some were bad, I can't lie I havent done anything since giant robo chick so would be disingenuous to claim I liked how things went at the end, I heard some good and some bad.

[Fencers]

I don't think the recent updates were very good either. The last few had some rather terrible and lazy gameplay- a lot of which wasn't very creative either.

Whereas earlier updates like the Bazaar of the Winds and Adventure Box were very creative and leveraged the gameplay of GW2 in ways both unique to the actual play systems and within the genre.

Trinket grinds amid the same masse-en-masse melee are plentiful in GW2. I don't see how an update(s) adding more is commendable or remarkable aside to say, "Oh yea, there is more of that thing that is the primary modus of gameplay."

[zed zebes]

Living Story's actual story faces a tougher challenge than GW1, SWTOR or Secret World. All three of those use instancing of some sort, along with cutscens, to tell stories. Like GW2's Personal Story, they limit the players involved in the story from the start. When multiple people with the story are partied together, it generally picks one as a camera focus. SWTOR does allow group decisions, so that's a neat way of approaching the general MMO story problem.

That problem is everyone having a story in the same world. LS is trying to tell a story mid-stride through massive events. LS doesn't really limit the players involved much at all. It's not an easy thing to do. That's why you fight Scarlet with a large group and then pop into a solo instance to finish her. They couldn't figure out a way to please the "wanna be the hero" folk and the actuality of the story.

I still don't care too much about the story other than what it tells me about future content. Scarlet was just a poorly done villain, but the LS did bring more out of Evon Gnashblade and create Job-o-Tron. I'd say those two characters are at least interesting and fun. I generally cared more about their plight than Scarlet's reasoning or any of the new Destiny's Edge folk.

[Karizee]

Improvement is fine. Improvement over the course of a unified work is just an uneven and/or poorly produced work.

That probably holds true more for a static kind of game with static quests or stories, such as a game that starts off with a 'help me find my dog' quest that's still in the game 10 years later rather than a game like GW2 where those first fix the signpost events don't even exist anymore.

They experimented A LOT in the first year and they came out of it with a very solid way of delivering a compelling story.

[Valeron]

I'm not passing judgement on future updates, I'm passing judgement on the Living story, so no, starting from the beginning is a good place to start any judgement.

ah so for a game like Diablo 3 and Marvel Heroes I'll start my judgement from their beginnings. And from that, they are both terrible. In fact I'll judge WoW from it's beginning. Suffice to say that WoW now is the same as when it first started right?

heck, lets go out of games. Shall we judge Liverpool from their start of the season or for how they are playing now. If you are City or Chelsea, how do you think they will prepare their games against Liverpool? From how they are currently playing or how they started the season?

[Svifnymr]

ah so for a game like Diablo 3 and Marvel Heroes I'll start my judgement from their beginnings. And from that, they are both terrible. In fact I'll judge WoW from it's beginning. Suffice to say that WoW now is the same as when it first started right?

I'm reasonably sure almost everyone involved in the discussion is talking about slightly different things. If dray wants to judge the "Living Story during 2013" as a whole, then it makes sense to judge from Jan to Dec. It doesn't reflect on say, the state of the game at the moment, or how the Living World will continue or anything else.

I'm mostly judging it as a framework for the updates with an eye to what we can expect, so I'm talking about a different thing.

Though actually, I think the story of Flame & Frost wasn't bad, it was the gameplay side of it that sucked.

[Valeron]

I just take umbrage with saying getting better or improving doesn't matter as some of the posters are saying here.

[draykorinee]

ah so for a game like Diablo 3 and Marvel Heroes I'll start my judgement from their beginnings. And from that, they are both terrible. In fact I'll judge WoW from it's beginning. Suffice to say that WoW now is the same as when it first started right?

heck, lets go out of games. Shall we judge Liverpool from their start of the season or for how they are playing now. If you are City or Chelsea, how do you think they will prepare their games against Liverpool? From how they are currently playing or how they started the season?

Mmmmhm analogies I love how they never work in forums. This book I read was really great, sure the first 1/4 of it was terrible but lets not mention that, lets just say it all ended well. The improvements weren't enough, I mentioned the beginning because it was bad, flat out bad, the rest got better, but so what, the whole experience was soured.

- - - Updated - - -

I just take umbrage with saying getting better or improving doesn't matter as some of the posters are saying here.

Don't point that stick at me dooze :P

[Fencers]

That probably holds true more for a static kind of game with static quests or stories, such as a game that starts off with a 'help me find my dog' quest that's still in the game 10 years later rather than a game like GW2 where those first fix the signpost events don't even exist anymore.

Well I would say more static games (MMOs usually) are also kinda terrible too if produced sloppily. Though that may be a larger, more systemic problem with the MMO genre itself being kinda full of awful video games.

It's not necessarily an issue exclusive to GW2. We just happen to be talking about GW2 here.

They experimented A LOT in the first year and they came out of it with a very solid way of delivering a compelling story.

I agree that the structure for delivery the LS was rather well done. And for the most part, a lot of the primary game systems and gameplay is still uniformly excellent in the game.

Just to clarify, I am speaking from the personal perspective of the LS "season" as a whole. So I don't disagree that individual content updates were quite good, and improved even, over the course of a season. But do feel as a whole the LS was not very good.

I just don't want to give the impression that the past content updates were wholly un-enjoyable for me. I did play most of them and enjoyed my time as such.

[zed zebes]

The only updates I felt were lacking were Flame & Frost (minus the dungeon) and Dragon Bash.

[Lane]

What exactly was "cohesive" about the LS? All of the events up until well past when Scarlet was introduced seemed completely random with little to nothing to do with each other. It took Anet grabbing players by the hand (relatively late in the season) and playing connect the dots to attempt to show how it was all supposed to tie in together. (Edit: Come to think of it, I still don't know WTF Southsun had to do with anything Scarlet.)

As for the writing, well, the 'infographic' basically said it all. It's not as if I'm some sort of literature elitist either. On the contrary, I consider myself to have a relatively low threshold of amusement (that is quite varied as well). The only comparison that comes to mind is extremely poorly written fan fiction (which considering Angel McCoy is a self-admitted Sylvari fangirl seems likely). I can't honestly recall a worse story being conveyed in any other medium that wasn't at least humorous for being so bad (e.g. "The Room").

I also don't agree that it improved. There was a faint glimmer of light when they decided to share (or give) Scarlet a backstory, but in the end it didn't really matter. [insert Linkin Park song :P] It still came down to the most simplistic reasoning ever: "dragon made me do it". I know people try to defend Braham cutting her off from explaining her story, but I frankly believe that was a cop out (or an "F you" :P or both).

Realistically speaking, I don't expect S2 and beyond to be much better unless they hire different people to do the story/narrative. S1 may have been a "learning experience", and they may be "taking notes" of player feedback, but the end result isn't going to equate to a significantly better experience next time. It might be not quite as poorly written fan fiction, but it'll still be still fan fiction level. At least if they write it in a way that there's humor to be found among the bad it would have some worth, more than it has now anyway.

[zito]

Come to think of it, I still don't know WTF Southsun had to do with anything Scarlet

The initial rise of southsun was from bubbles. Scarlets involvement with southsun was indirect. The refugees from flame and frost (which was caused by scarlet) let to the events of southsun.

She also studied plant life from southsun to make her tower of nightmares (supposedly)

[Valeron]

again, anyone expecting anything above mediocre writing in an mmo is naïve at best and an idiot at worst.

[Svifnymr]

What exactly was "cohesive" about the LS? All of the events up until well past when Scarlet was introduced seemed completely random with little to nothing to do with each other.

You don't think the events led directly one to the next? Sure there were some gaps (Dragonbash), but overall everything flowed well enough that it made sense. Not that everything had to do with Scarlet, or that everything was well done, but the flow was apparent and made sense.

It took Anet grabbing players by the hand (relatively late in the season) and playing connect the dots to attempt to show how it was all supposed to tie in together.

It was late in the season when they explained what the end purpose was, certainly, but how it all tied together was pretty much throughout.

(Edit: Come to think of it, I still don't know WTF Southsun had to do with anything Scarlet.)

Yeah, there was some quote that "everything tied back into Scarlet's scheme" which was obviously an error or not delivered on. Southsun made sense as part of the story, but had nothing to do with Scarlet that I could see. They also should have explained more of the Jubilee reasoning.

As for the writing, well, the 'infographic' basically said it all. It's not as if I'm some sort of literature elitist either. On the contrary, I consider myself to have a relatively low threshold of amusement (that is quite varied as well). The only comparison that comes to mind is extremely poorly written fan fiction (which considering Angel McCoy is a self-admitted Sylvari fangirl seems likely).

Yeah, that's who I meant when I said fanfiction earlier, couldn't recall her name (nor bother to look it up), but she gushed too much for impartiality. I do think there's a difference between the writing and the overall plot development, assigning Scarlet's character to the flaws of the overall plot development rather than to the particular writing team that may have done any specific part, but hopefully we don't need to argue the semantics of that.

I also don't agree that it improved. There was a faint glimmer of light when they decided to share (or give) Scarlet a backstory, but in the end it didn't really matter. [insert Linkin Park song :P]

To be fair, they gave her back story right after she was introduced. There was some stuff in game (an asura and some other stuff) and then the What Scarlet Saw short story in August.

Developing it further into the dragon stuff did wait until Marionette in January though.

[zito]

Yea we still don't know why scarlet wanted mai trin in the council - and it wasn't one of those events where she might of ended up in the council like the voting for ellen kiel thing.

We also still don't know why scarlet busted her out or what shes up to now.

[Valeron]

definitely lots of loose ends, disappointing there unless they have a part to play later

[zito]

definitely lots of loose ends, disappointing there unless they have a part to play later

they said everything would be explained in these last 4 updates. Except everything wasn't explained.

[Lane]

again, anyone expecting anything above mediocre writing in an mmo is naïve at best and an idiot at worst.

I don't think that's fair. I've been playing MMOs since (technically) Asheron's Call and LS is far and beyond the worst writing I've ever been subjected to in a game. Worse than Cataclysm (though only barely), which is saying something.

You don't think the events led directly one to the next? Sure there were some gaps (Dragonbash), but overall everything flowed well enough that it made sense. Not that everything had to do with Scarlet, or that everything was well done, but the flow was apparent and made sense.

Not at all. I've said before the entirety of LS felt like they went around the office, asked everyone for a 'story' idea that they tossed into a hat, and then picked at random the focus for the next update. It certainly seemed like only when more and more confused players started posting "WTF?" that they brought in this 'super villain' character to magically tie everything together.