Guild Wars 2: The One Thread

[Fencers]

The mmo that throws that mould away will be interesting to watch.

Many such MMOs exist or have existed without character levels. It's not a new concept.

Linearity is highly comforting to humans so long as it doesn't become constricting.

One thing I think MMOs could make use of pretty well is something I saw LoL do. There's sort of a tutorial but before you start it you answer a question or two about your experience with RTS and MOBAs, then depending on how you answer you are put in different tutorial modes before really playing.

A tutorial concedes poor game design. Having more tutorials doesn't alleviate the poor design of MMOs.

And one you likely believe it out of familiarity, ubiquity and mass market expectation. That is a non remedy.

The problem that is systemic to MMOs is that they only exist as vehicle for social play. No gameplay function is better served by the genre otherwise. This creates an issue whereby design must deliver a set of demonstrable rules to desperate persons able to interact with each other in ways not totally controlled by the developer/designer.

The problem is presenting transparency of game mechanics in a game space that has to be shared to achieve it's goals. Depending on the sub genre of MMO, this can be done to varying degrees of success. However, as I pointed out above MMORPGs have historically not been able to deliver their game mechanics in a compact and transparent method without arbitration.

World of Warcraft does it the best as far as I know. By level 10-ish almost all core systems and motivations of the rule set are revealed. It's still one of Blizzard's greatest masterstrokes of design; Ellowyn Forest.

But I am keen to point out "almost" and "core" in the above. Because it's still not compact or dynamic enough to deal with the impression of other people sharing a limited game space in real time, persistently.

It might not be a solvable problem, in truth. In the same way an FPS can not reasonably solve platforming mechanisms without creating specific devices to allow the presence of platforming to make consistent, logical sense in the context of an FPS. Portal 2 does this to the greatest effect we have ever seen- a lengthy lecture was held on this fact some years ago.

Anywho, yea. MMOs are not particularly good games.

[Deleted]

One thing I think MMOs could make use of pretty well is something I saw LoL do. There's sort of a tutorial but before you start it you answer a question or two about your experience with RTS and MOBAs, then depending on how you answer you are put in different tutorial modes before really playing. I'm sure some people who need the tutorials would skip it, but people who don't want to learn aren't going to no matter what you do.

Wasn`t aware other games did it too, but Magicka:Wizard Wars does a quick tutorial at the start too, really helps folk out, even for Magicka players because spell combinations got lowered somewhat.

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Many such MMOs exist or have existed without character levels. It's not a new concept.

L

I`d not heard of any game that had done so, good to know there are some.
What games were they?

[Svifnymr]

The statement is not odd at all. Obviously leveling has an impact. You can't go to a level 80 zone as a level 10. The point is that there is really no reason for it to be there in the first place. In that way it's pointless. They could have done perfectly well just making some zones tougher and through allocating skill points and talents as you "max out your xp" each time. I would assume that they put it in to let people moving from other MMO's feel comfortable and to give them some goals out of the starting post.

Right, levels only matter because they put levels in and made them matter. I'd have been fine with no levels, though again you'd still have restrictions based on skills or whatever anyway.

Really the easiest way at this point would be to just decrease the xp costs for levels. Halve the values, levels come quickly and skills/traits are more common, et cetera.

[Fencers]

What games were they?

Asheron's Call, The Secret World, Ultima Online, Fallen Earth, Defiance, Perpetuum, Planetside 1 and 2, Eve, Mortal, Archeage and Ryzom.

Guild Wars 1 effectively had no levels. The cap was set to 20 for the lifetime of the product.

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And Age of Wushu. Also no character levels. Forgot about that game- it's excellent though.

[Meledelion]

Guild Wars 1 effectively had no levels. The cap was set to 20 for the lifetime of the product.

This is only true after factions was released, prior to that you were over halfway and then you got boosted to lvl 20.

[Fencers]

I said "effectively " and stipulated that the cap was for the lifetime of the product.

There was effectively no level cap for the majority of the product's sales and release.

[Deleted]

Asheron's Call, The Secret World, Ultima Online, Fallen Earth, Defiance, Perpetuum, Planetside 1 and 2, Eve, Mortal, Archeage and Ryzom.

Guild Wars 1 effectively had no levels. The cap was set to 20 for the lifetime of the product.

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And Age of Wushu. Also no character levels. Forgot about that game- it's excellent though.

Out of those only played EVE & Planetside2, although PS2 was only a month or so play so never took much notice.
I`ll have a nosey at the others, thanks.
Shame about World of Darkness being cancelled, could`ve been more competition hehe

Was just thinking about Darkspore, that has a system that fit well.
Whilst there are levels, they`re only there because of the gear you equip. Got spare items in your inventory, whack them on a brand new char` & kaching, it`s a high end beastie, but with the advantage that lower level fights can still splatter you

[Nurvus]

zergfest in dungeons
zerging has been out of the dungeons for a LOOOONG time.

(disregard this comment if you meant berserkerfest as in gear used, this would be zerkfest though)

No I really mean that alot of class/build/gear combos are abused for the purpose of zerging dungeons with minimal effort.
As in just "pew pew laser beam" with no semblance of skill, reactivity or proactivity.
Forget about the concept of "real variety" of builds, because they ones that are effective and effectively used are very few.

Ofcourse, the higher - much higher - difficulties are different, but 95% of the game is a zergfest, with minor gimmicks.

[Fencers]

I think the term zergfest is likely being used loosely &/or poorly. This is a failure of language.

[carnifex2005]

It's official. The Megaservers have been rolled out to every PVE map and Edge of the Mists. Love it so far. Really has livened up the game in the mid levels and in Orr.

https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/t...is-complete-2/

[Zephyr Storm]

It's official. The Megaservers have been rolled out to every PVE map and Edge of the Mists. Love it so far. Really has livened up the game in the mid levels and in Orr.

https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/t...is-complete-2/

While this change has made zones more active and allows events to get done more frequently, it also has a downside. It turns the game into a slideshow for alot of players because of the sheer number of people on screen all at once. Hell, I have a beast rig (i7-3770k @ 4.3 GHz, GTX 780ti, 16 GB RAM @ 1866Mhz, and a good quality high speed internet connection) and I STILL get extremely shitty frame rates and performance in game with the mass amounts of people at events on the new Megaservers. So while the new system has created better opportunities for some, it has really fucked others over. Did Anet never stop to think that this system would make some of these events completely unplayable for some of the player base?

Example: Tried doing Claw of Jormag.....so many people there that my FPS was below 20 the entire time....I eventually just gave up and sat and let everyone else complete the event and collected the chest at the end because it wasn't worth the headache of dragging myself through all of that. If I'm having issues like this on my computer, I can't imagine what it's like for all the people who play GW2 on pieces of shit.

And FYI: I've never had issues like this in any other game. Hell, I didn't even have issues like this in GW2 before the new megaserver system and I played on Tarnished Coast.

[lawow74]

Setting the char model limit to lowest helped a lot for me doing the World Boss events. When that wasn't enough for some (like Claw of Jormag and Karka Queen) I'd just bite the bullet, set everything to lowest until the fight was done, set it back up when it was finished and I was elsewhere.

[Nest]

en.twitch.tv/guildwars2
Tournament of Legends starting.
Precursor and new Llama Finisher giveaways in Twitch chat. :3

[Nurvus]

You could essentially say that about all MMORPGS, by just making talents, skills, spells, etc earned through playing the game. I in fact would like to see a MMO take that leap and do that.

+1000.

The concept of leveling is dull, has NO gameplay value and creates various problems:
(Don't mistake leveling for progress. You don't need the concept of leveling to gradually acquire skills, passives, etc)
1 - Stat Rating System (Precision = Crit Rating)
Stat Ratings is a solution to a problem that doesn't exist without the concept of Leveling to begin with.
It's meant to make the developers able to make stronger gear without risking you maxing "cappable stats (100% crit, etc), which would make it harder for devs to design "more attractive" gear to you.
1.1 - Due to the way it works, when you level up without upgrading your gear, you become WEAKER.
Every point of Crit Rating is worth LESS Crit Chance as you level up, so you need MORE rating to reach the same Crit Chance you had before.
1.1.1 - Downleveling in GW2 makes this worse, as on top of what I said in 1.1, when you level beyond an area's "limit", your stats (and gear stats) are also "downgraded", making you even weaker. (read below before you disagree)
If you are level 4 with level 4 gear, and level to 5, you are now level 5 with level 4 gear.
The gear has 80% of your new level.
Assuming the max level in the area is 4, when the area downlevels you to 4 (80% of before), it also tries to keep your gear proportionate, thus downgrading your gear to 80% of before (Level 3.2).
So you went from Level 4 with Level 4 gear, to level 4 with Level 3.2 gear. It's ridiculous!
2 - Ruins World PvP
Balanced, fair and fun World PvP is nearly impossible because if you're ~20% higher level than someone you're a god to them, not only due to stats, but also to additional skills, passives and combos.
3 - Detracts from exploration and the feeling of World
Areas could be separated by difficulty, instead they're separated by level.
3.1 - This inherently makes lower level areas nearly useless for you, and higher level areas unplayable.
3.2 - It makes exploration less interesting and inherently unimportant as the effective "explorable" area at any time is very restricted.
4 - Numeric Inflation
I take no pleasure in seeing 6-digit numbers on screen.
I'm sure some people enjoy it, but exactly how much of an enjoyment is it?
A crit is a crit, and its value is a comparison to the "usual" values.
A 100,000 crit is only impressive if you expect a lower average crit, like 50,000, and even lower average damage, like 25,000.
If you expect 100 average damage, and crit for 400, it'll be equally impressive.
4.1 - Numeric Inflation can bring UI problems, even contribute to server stress.
It has no real gameplay value.

Games with small numbers that I love:
- Neverwinter Nights (RPG based on D&D)
- Guild Wars
Leveling to 20 (at least in Factions and Nightfall) was more of an introductory experience than anything else.
It was no less fun to play beyond level 20, specially with all the skill hunting and interesting challenges.

[Valeron]

- Neverwinter Nights (RPG based on D&D)

Are you referring to the actual RPG or the MMO? The only thing the MMO has in common with D&D is the game world.

[Nurvus]

Are you referring to the actual RPG or the MMO? The only thing the MMO has in common with D&D is the game world.

You answered yourself.
But I'll help you further: The RPG is called Neverwinter Nights, the MMO is called Neverwinter.

[zed zebes]

Unfortunately, big numbers sell. I think it's stupid, but some people don't realize 100 hit against 500 hp mob is the same as a 50k hit against a 250k hp mob.

[Karizee]

en.twitch.tv/guildwars2
Tournament of Legends starting.
Precursor and new Llama Finisher giveaways in Twitch chat. :3

There's one more precursor they are giving away today - in about 15 minutes

[Fencers]

Balanced, fair

This a contradiction with World PVP. You are arguing for something that is logically impossible. It's not even practically possible in most game systems or engines without extensive code rewriting.

Though rewriting the fundamental game engine would be assuming one can bend logic to allow such a thing in the first place. Which one can not. It is impossible.

Also, are you talking about Neverwinter Nights the MMO, the CRPG or the recent Neverwinter MMO?

As a first reading led me to think you meant RPG module as in tabletop. You specifically state "RPG" without granularity or precision of language. I am unaware of any such module for tabletop that predates the original MMO of Neverwinter Nights.

I am partly curious and confused. I would like to know if a tabletop module exists before the MMO!

[Nurvus]

This a contradiction with World PVP. You are arguing for something that is logically impossible. It's not even practically possible in most game systems or engines without extensive code rewriting.

Though rewriting the fundamental game engine would be assuming one can bend logic to allow such a thing in the first place. Which one can not. It is impossible.

Also, are you talking about Neverwinter Nights the MMO, the CRPG or the recent Neverwinter MMO?

As a first reading led me to think you meant RPG module as in tabletop. You specifically state "RPG" without granularity or precision of language. I am unaware of any such module for tabletop that predates the original MMO of Neverwinter Nights.

I am partly curious and confused. I would like to know if a tabletop module exists before the MMO!

No to everything.
I was replying to Kirino's statement that the concept of leveling itself is unnecessary, and reinforcing his statement with my own view.

As for Neverwinter Nights - the MMO is called Neverwinter, NOT Neverwinter Nights.
Therefore I was speaking to the RPG made years ago.