Guild Wars 2: The One Thread

[Meledelion]

1. Have you tried poop yet? You may love it. Have you been shot? It's pretty rad. Jellyfish wrestling? Could be your favorite hobby, but you don't know. Or is it possible that you can observe characteristics of something you know you won't enjoy prior to actually experiencing it in a direct manner? (b/c this is MMO-C, I feel I need to specifically point out these are rhetorical questions. I died a little inside when I realized this is now necessary)

2. If you actually read what I wrote and then elaborated on,

3. I give numerous examples of what 'purples' means to anyone and I'm also talking about a majority of people not an obscure minority.

4. You even admitted in your 'rebuttal' of what I said that the very reference you use changed their design. What does that tell you? It's not like they just said hey let's change things for no reason. Perhaps they had some actual data that shows it was preferred?

5. But yes, I realize that it's a design shift which will rub people the wrong way and I pointed that out in detail. I'm not really sure what you were trying to say to be honest.

6. I'm confused?

Quote me, respond. The way you're going at this is unorganized and thus I can't tell what you're saying in response to what so I'll be guessing which makes things more chaotic.

1. This point is retarded on more than one way, I won't waste my time with explaining why since if you don't realize this now I fear you're not capable of ever grasping this.

2. I did, hence the numbers.

3. I take it you didn't realise that I responded in chronological order? You said this

If we were playing Family Feud and we were guessing the motivations for raiding, Gear would be #1 and 'just because' would result in and 'X'.

I think there is a stigma associated with saying you raid for purples, when it's what most people likely do. It's literally the point of the game's design: power progression.

Obviously for GW2 this would be a paradigm shift if it happened, but it's not out of the question. While I'm sure you could throw cosmetics, dyes, and minis into the reward schema for raiding in GW2 it wouldn't be as impacting as providing a gear progression.

I made the "purples" purple for you and the red is because you identify it as worse than purples and for something to be worse it has to be different.

4. What? Where? Quote me, it's easiest.

5. I highlighted where you mention shift:

Obviously for GW2 this would be a paradigm shift if it happened, but it's not out of the question. While I'm sure you could throw cosmetics, dyes, and minis into the reward schema for raiding in GW2 it wouldn't be as impacting as providing a gear progression.

I guess the conflict is that it seems so counter to everything as constructed and slight deviation (as evidenced by Ascended gear) causes a ruckus. Perhaps it's just a vocal minority, but it does seem to shift the perception of the game's purity. To me, isolating the gear progression to only matter inside raids would be a fine compromise of design principles, but I'm not sure if people would be compelled even then when they have no clear advantage over anyone else.

The first one talks about introducing vertical progression, which has little to nothing to do with raids as a game mechanic nor a definition:

link

A raid is a type of mission in a video game in which either a very large number of people (larger than the normal team size set by the game), or a small number of people with exceptional skill, attempt to defeat a boss monster of a higher magnitude of difficulty than other monsters found within the game world. This type of objective is most common in MMORPGs, where the servers are designed to handle the number of users

link

Often used with mmorpgs. It involves players banding together to succeed at a common goal- such as taking over territory, killing an opposing faction, or most commonly killing big scary internet monsters that drop coveted items.

Neither of those ever mention (nor come close to mentioning) loot in any way, meaning that it's a trivial thing when defining a raid. Would SC,Ulduar, Karazhan, BT no longer be raids if you didn't get loot?

You're mentioning "shift" in relation to "adding vertical progression" which would make raids appear out of nowhere, while as you can tell from the quotes vertical progression isn't needed in any way shape or form for fight to be called a raid.

6. Follow the numbers, I went chronologically through posts and I also went through the post chronologically to voice commentary.

1. the feeling of something big, in the open world, and having a community involved with it.

2. There are plenty of games with instanced raiding such as World of Warcraft, Rift, SWTOR, AoC, Wildstar, and a lot more that I'm sure I'm forgetting. Why does GW2 need that?

1. World Bosses + Living Story Bosses have it covered no? It's important that a-net is referencing raids as new content:

link

How would you like to see Raiding function if this activity were part of GW2?

The were is important because it implies it's not part of GW2 yet.

2. Plenty of games have skill points, jumping puzzles, exploration, achievements, lfg tools, trading facilities, housing,WvW,... Why does GW2 need that?

You can throw your question at every part of the game which you don't find necessary. Going into this will just be an endless debate about opinions.

1) You probably didn't see what I said about my latency and the nature of my Internet connection.
To address your analogy more directly, I'm sure tackle football is great fun for that guy on crutches cos he's missing his right leg below the knee.

2)A. Additionally I'm the kind of person who prefers to keep my chars on equal footing.
2)B. As you might guess, I also far prefer crafting gear than battering my head into the RNG wall.

3)I never did The Deep, I did Urgoz one time, the rest I'd done a few times, I never fully completed UW(didn't go on any of the UBWay runs later in the game), did FoW many times with a partner and Heroes(by the time of EotN FoW was a joke for an Imbagon player with SF Eles and a MM Necro, I thoroughly enjoyed trashing it repeatedly). Prior to Heroes many of the Cantha missions could be real nut-busters, once Heroes came along everything pretty much melted in the face of a pet MM Necro and SF Eles. But unless you were doing Hard Mode(which I never cared for), the mechanics were vastly simpler. Send in a patsy who soaks up the aggro and destroy everything around it. The MM Necro, once you got that initial hurdle over of putting the first few minions in gear, was great for this. I think fondly of doing Vizunah Square with Heroes and friends and drowning the Afflicted in 3 MM Necros across the two teams. Or going up Snake Dance and Dreadnought's Drift with that same team of MM and SF driven by an Imbagon and laughing at everything just dying like moths before a flamethrower. Same with other locations that historically gave people trouble, like Thirsty River and the infamous Thunderhead Keep. And Gyala Hatchery was a lolfest, too.

4)For me it's an influence, cos the cost of a sub does put a certain feeling of not getting your money's worth if you're not progressing your characters, the method which I was funneled into already made clear by the above. Battlefield: Barrens was understandably much more enjoyable for me as a way to fill in certain gear gaps than Queue Finder.

5)I did the Scarlet fight only as long as I had to to see the story. Didn't care about the cheevs directly tied to that fight, just wanted it done. The Marionette fight was okay, I did some cheevs tied to it as part of completing the meta at the time, I mostly just felt like whether we won or lost was not up to me but everyone else and that wasn't especially fun. I'd rather just do my loot-pinata World Bosses if I'm going to do that, which I've largely stopped cos I'm no longer in the need for the loot, just care about getting Daily/Monthly stuff done and slowly doing map completion across all chars(that's not WvW, at least)while waiting for Living Story updates.

1. I find this strange at 800ms what can you do? Scarlet Briar/Marionette/tacco/World Bosses... when all require dodging (some more than others) and good latency, yes it's more forgiving than wow-raids but I can't imagine it being fun to die cause of lag, wait to get rezzed and then eventually semi afk(dieing a lot/just auto-attacking) the fight to beat it, you might as well go to the mists and hit the indestructable gollem (hyperbole).

My response will be quite harsh, if you don't have the equipment to do something why put yourself through such hell? The guy with crutches can't hang with uninjured people but he could try wheelchair rugby where he's on an even footing.

2.A. That's fine but that's a limit you put on yourself. Nobody is forcing you to play the same character all the time, raid guilds have alt runs quite often and "normal" guilds usually don't care about who brings what as long as you can do the encounter.
2.B. Again that's fine (I do to) but there's nothing saying that raid = rng loot or rng loot = raid. As I mentioned before a raid is defined by mechanics, not by drops/loot systems/... FoW was a raid but getting FoW Armor had very little to do with RNG for example.

3. I know it became a joke (which is fine, the problem in GW was that they didn't release new stuff that people had to figure out after that) that's what I mean with the power creep. Leaving that aside, did you enjoy the content? Since it basically means you enjoyed raiding.

4. It doesn't for a very simple reason. You're (indirectly) tying subfee with raiding and vertical progression.
If GW2 has the same subfee as wow tomorrow, would that make you less inclined to play? Alternatively if WoW dropped the subfee would you be more inclined to go play that?
If your answer to either of those is yes then your problem is with the subfee and not the type of content that the game offers.

5. See 1. I can't believe you could stand doing any of those fights with 800ms. IMO if you did those without dieing as often as I think you did, you might be good to raid in GW2 as well.

[lawow74]

1. I find this strange at 800ms what can you do? Scarlet Briar/Marionette/tacco/World Bosses... when all require dodging (some more than others) and good latency, yes it's more forgiving than wow-raids but I can't imagine it being fun to die cause of lag, wait to get rezzed and then eventually semi afk(dieing a lot/just auto-attacking) the fight to beat it, you might as well go to the mists and hit the indestructable gollem (hyperbole).

My response will be quite harsh, if you don't have the equipment to do something why put yourself through such hell? The guy with crutches can't hang with uninjured people but he could try wheelchair rugby where he's on an even footing.

2.A. That's fine but that's a limit you put on yourself. Nobody is forcing you to play the same character all the time, raid guilds have alt runs quite often and "normal" guilds usually don't care about who brings what as long as you can do the encounter.
2.B. Again that's fine (I do to) but there's nothing saying that raid = rng loot or rng loot = raid. As I mentioned before a raid is defined by mechanics, not by drops/loot systems/... FoW was a raid but getting FoW Armor had very little to do with RNG for example.

3. I know it became a joke (which is fine, the problem in GW was that they didn't release new stuff that people had to figure out after that) that's what I mean with the power creep. Leaving that aside, did you enjoy the content? Since it basically means you enjoyed raiding.

4. It doesn't for a very simple reason. You're (indirectly) tying subfee with raiding and vertical progression.
If GW2 has the same subfee as wow tomorrow, would that make you less inclined to play? Alternatively if WoW dropped the subfee would you be more inclined to go play that?
If your answer to either of those is yes then your problem is with the subfee and not the type of content that the game offers.

5. See 1. I can't believe you could stand doing any of those fights with 800ms. IMO if you did those without dieing as often as I think you did, you might be good to raid in GW2 as well.

1)But now you see why I never did anything higher than LFR. I could basically gimp along with whatever pretense of a rotation I felt like doing, halfway obey the fight mechanics and get loot commensurate with the difficulty. But I was forced into a DPS queue for hours on end and had no full alternative progression like I do in GW, where I can just craft. Yes, those kind of fights are frustrating for me. That's why I don't do Teq, the Tri-Wurm, and only did Scarlet(Breachmaker)once to completion and the Marionette fight only a few times to complete the meta. Most World Bosses are not a problem for me cos I can safely stand somewhere and plink away, and if I do run the risk of going down just leave combat, heal and return. Also having a Necro with Ascended Soldier gear lets me turtle through some mechanics and survive where a Zerker would go SPLAT.

The beauty of GW is I'm not continuously tunneled into raid to get gear to see the story of the next raid to get gear to etc. etc. etc.

2 & 3)I wouldn't call FoW a raid. Its mechanics were not complicated by any new systems to learn. At best you just knew what spawned where and how to handle it, which as mentioned already became trivial with the escalating power creep. There was no concern over getting and holding aggro beyond the initial 'hey look at me!' system they used in GW, healing was a trivial task(Prot Spirit, Shield of Absorption and nuke the fuck out of them while they try and kill the invincitarget). But regardless, avoid or die mechanics and other positioning/handling tricks are just frustrating for me. It goes much beyond stand here and press 1 and I don't really enjoy it.

4)I doubt I'd ever return to WoW so long as its game model remains as it is, sub fee or not. As for a sub fee tacked onto GW2, as it stands now, no I wouldn't pay it. If that sub fee guaranteed bi-weekly updates of Living Story and other new content? I'd consider it.

5)Maybe, maybe not. But raiding as an organized, instanced experience is not something I care to subject myself to, much like dungeons and fractals. I refuse to let other people criticize my playing or tell me how to play and be in a position to prevent me from doing so. Out in the open world I can do whatever I like and get credit and rewards the same as other people putting in similar or more effort do, and no one can deny me from doing so.

Why not play an offline single-player game, you might ask? Point me to one with the same diversity and depth as these MMO games and I'll consider it. They're very few and far between IME.

[Kelimbror]

Quote me, respond. The way you're going at this is unorganized

Your 'organization' isn't doing you any better. I don't feel the need to judge you on it though.

1. This point is retarded on more than one way, I won't waste my time with explaining why since if you don't realize this now I fear you're not capable of ever grasping this.

Translation: I have no way of arguing against this so I'll just say it's stupid.
My response: It's completely logical and goes against the premise of what you are trying to say. Additionally, I already took extra care to emphasize the rhetorical nature and thus that it was employed to highlight the specific point which I provided quite plainly:

you can observe characteristics of something you know you won't enjoy prior to actually experiencing it in a direct manner

So please. Tell people again how they don't know what they like until they try it. I'll be right here with the same logic proving it wrong. If you can't even be honest about the first point, how do you expect me to even read the rest of them?

[Meledelion]

6. Why not play an offline single-player game, you might ask? Point me to one with the same diversity and depth as these MMO games and I'll consider it. They're very few and far between IME.

1. I can see it absolutely, I just find it a bit unfair that because of your handicap you advocate against something which people without a handicap have no issue against. It's a bit like saying (again hyperbole) "I want to race in Nascar but none of you can use a car with more than X horses, cause I only have X horses." You're not being as whiny about as the example sounds but you catch my drift.

You're basing your views on raiding on your situation, where you struggled with annoying stuff (grinding for gear, q-times, difficulty to gear alts,...) which isn't annoying when you are in a raiding guild.

You again show you tied raid = vertical progression with this "The beauty of GW is I'm not continuously tunneled into raid to get gear to see the story of the next raid to get gear to etc. etc. etc.", as I said before would BT, Kara, SC, Ulduar,... not be raids if you removed the loot?

Don't get me wrong, I'm heavily against vertical progression (always have been, I hate ascended armor) but I see no reason why you can't have a raid without vertical progression they aren't linked by chains.

2. Exactly you seem to have experienced it after the power creep, when people would solo forest/beach etc. I'm talking about the time when spawns were unknown, reaching the NPC to get FoW armor was a laborious mission on it's own only few people cleared FoW. Another analogy, grabbing your level 100 toon and soloing BT doesn't mean it's not a raid anymore, it just means that you outscaled it for it to be challenging, IMO the same thing happened with FoW. People knew it inside out and that's why it was easy.

3. If you don't enjoy it that's fine I don't enjoy the static play you like, the difference is I'm not advocating in any way to turn the static fights into dynamics. I'd just want some challenging content (which imo has to be instanced because of this) which is entirely new.

4. So you agree that it's not raids on it's self which push you away, it's mainly the sub fee.

5. That's fine but then I'll repeat what I said to Doozer, we already have Open World/Living Story that cater to that taste. It looks like with the raids they want something entirely new.

6. This one is really hard because we have differing views on depth. I find MMOs to be quite shallow (and GW2 in particular) because depth to me is tied with the complexity of "mastering" perfect play. I'd argue that shadow of the colossus, dragon age, FFX are deeper than most MMOs.

- - - Updated - - -

1. Your 'organization' isn't doing you any better. I don't feel the need to judge you on it though.

2. Translation: I have no way of arguing against this so I'll just say it's stupid.
My response: It's completely logical and goes against the premise of what you are trying to say. Additionally, I already took extra care to emphasize the rhetorical nature and thus that it was employed to highlight the specific point which I provided quite plainly:

So please. Tell people again how they don't know what they like until they try it. I'll be right here with the same logic proving it wrong. If you can't even be honest about the first point, how do you expect me to even read the rest of them?

1. This is weird since Lawow has no issues with following the numbers. If you find following numbers hard, I'm going to judge you. In case you don't know me I am an elitist and I like people to be precise with their statements.

2. Come on man, you can't even follow a god damn list, my expectations are really low because of that. I'll give it a try though.

A. Poop isn't an edible thing, it's not nutritious so suggesting to eat it is silly. You can serve me any kind of meal and I'll try it.
B. You look for peers. If nobody does something there's probably a good reason not to do it. A lot of people raid.
C. You can't, oysters don't look particularly appealing yet they're quite delicious. Fried liver/kidneys smell horribly yet they taste differently.
D. How do you think people found out what berries/meat is edible and which is poisonous? Someone tried and afterwards the key is someone has to try it.

That's four reasons why your point is retarded. So I'll clarify, in one statement you made 4 errors that's quite a feat.

3. There is no logic, you're just gonna spew the same bullshit over and over again because that's all you're capable of. I am honest, brutally so. The problem is that when people challenge you you hide like a child putting it's fingers in it's ears and shouting loudly.


I have now wasted my time on you so I'd appreciate it if you

1. Do what I asked earlier and quote me to clarify WTF you're talking about.
2. Address the points I make.
3. Think about what you're saying and check if maybe, just maybe you could consider following a laid out structure when responding to multiple things. Lawow managed to do this perfectly, Doozer didn't need to because he focused on one thing. I honestly can't grasp why it's so hard for you to follow a list.

[Kelimbror]

You can serve me any kind of meal and I'll try it.

I have emphasized the subjective clue for your statement as to why this can be disregarded.

You look for peers. If nobody does something there's probably a good reason not to do it. A lot of people raid.

Lots of people commit suicide, murder, and do all sorts of other things. Stellar peer group there. So...oh right, you still can't beat logic.

You can't, oysters don't look particularly appealing yet they're quite delicious. Fried liver/kidneys smell horribly yet they taste differently.

I have emphasized the subjective clues for your statement as to why this can be disregarded. Oysters look like dirty rocks from the ocean, smell like fish, and probably taste like shit. All of my perceptions are spot on for me. See how that works?

D. How do you think people found out what berries/meat is edible and which is poisonous? Someone tried and afterwards the key is someone has to try it.

At the expense of one dummy dying for it. If he had simply thought, hrm...mushroom look funky I am not touching those. He would be alive. Thank you for proving the point that you don't need to suffer through something you think you should steer clear of.

People have already tried it, written about it, discussed it at length, and all manner of gameplay has been utilized across multiple genres. To bring this back to relevancy, since you can't overcome a battle with logic, this means there is plenty of information of which to know you will not like an experience. It's hilarious that you are still stuck on rhetorical questions, maybe because you don't know what that is? (idk), but you can't actually get this point. Read this paragraph at least three times before trying to respond.

Repeating the same logical fallacies gets us nowhere.

Edit: Actually don't even bother. This is not a productive conversation. I'll contribute if developments occur for GW2 raiding or something else interesting comes up. Big ole meh about this.

[Meledelion]

I have emphasized the subjective clue for your statement as to why this can be disregarded.

Lots of people commit suicide, murder, and do all sorts of other things. Stellar peer group there. So...oh right, you still can't beat logic.

I have emphasized the subjective clues for your statement as to why this can be disregarded. Oysters look like dirty rocks from the ocean, smell like fish, and probably taste like shit. All of my perceptions are spot on for me. See how that works?

At the expense of one dummy dying for it. If he had simply thought, hrm...mushroom look funky I am not touching those. He would be alive. Thank you for proving the point that you don't need to suffer through something you think you should steer clear of.

People have already tried it, written about it, discussed it at length, and all manner of gameplay has been utilized across multiple genres. To bring this back to relevancy, since you can't overcome a battle with logic, this means there is plenty of information of which to know you will not like an experience. It's hilarious that you are still stuck on rhetorical questions, maybe because you don't know what that is? (idk), but you can't actually get this point. Read this paragraph at least three times before trying to respond.

Repeating the same logical fallacies gets us nowhere.

You finally managed to follow the list, congratz.

1. Strawman, it's added information and you're not adressing the point "Poop isn't an edible thing, it's not nutritious so suggesting to eat it is silly." stay on point.

2. Strawman, we're looking into a situation and then addressing peers. E.G. of the people who play the game ..., of the people who are looking for food,...
You're introducing a fake "peer" which isn't even correct namely suicidal people. I'm not suicidal hence they're not my peer. (same thing for murder etc.)

3. Strawman, we're not talking about my tastes and whether it's subjective or not. We're talking about not being able to draw a conclusion out of thin air.

4. A. It's not a dummy someone HAS TO.
4. B. http://media.treehugger.com/assets/i...crop-smart.jpg You can't tell by looks if things are edible or not (that's why you have to TRY IT), the mushroom I linked fits "funky" imo and yet it's edible. In contrasth this one looks normal and like other edible mushrooms but it's highly toxic.
4. C. Thank you for again showing your stupidity, at this point it's comical to me.

5. A. Yes those are the peers and since ppl wrote about it you know it's safe to try it.
5. B. As I had anticipated your "logic" is nothing but fallacies (the same one every time, how sad)
5. C. You think (wrongly) that saying "it's rhetorical", makes it rhetorical but alas that's not how this works. I'll explain what it actually is, it's a sentence expressed as a question used to make a statement e.g. "Why are you so dumb?" (used to express you're very dumb), a question to which you expect no answer e.g. "God, why?" (you don't expect God to answer you) or a fact which is implied "Aren't we all human?".

Do you realise that none of your "rhetorical questions" meet the criteria? "Have you tried poop, yet?" are you trying to state that I've eaten poop? Do you think I'm God/dead? Are you trying to say everyone else has eaten poop but me?
"Have you been shot?" I have actually. Again was it a fact that I hadn't been shot? Did you see me with an obvious GS-wound bleeding out and did you just want to state "you've been shot."? Am I prey that you shot so you don't expect an answer?
"Jellyfish wrestling?" this isn't even a sentence for crying out loud.

5. Yes so please, stop coming up with strawmen and go back to my post and address the issue being raised.

[Lane]

1. The "Stigma" comes from the fact that you don't need current gear to the current raid, while many/most people believe this is the case. If you admit to raiding for gear you're either saying: "I need training wheels to see the content" or "I don't care about the content I just wanna look cool."

Well, neither in my case. I abhor raiding*, but I did it for exactly the reason Kelimbror gave: power progression. It's literally the only way to better your character past a certain point, particularly in WoW but also in some other MMOs.

Seeing the content was sometimes cool. Serpentshrine Cavern, no, looked exactly the same as Steamvaults to me. Sunwell, yes, both aesthetically pleasing and felt like something different.

"Look cool"? Depends on what game, but in WoW tier sets have been hideously ugly since T6 at the absolute latest. Maybe if you mean "cool" as in "I'm a raider!" perhaps for some people. I think of all the gear I've ever sported in WoW I was probably most proud of my PvP gear though.

* I think the people who enjoy raiding for the sake of raiding are team players, which I am not. My reaction to downing bosses is never elation, it's relief that a large group managed to accomplish something in spite of itself.

[lawow74]

I did do FoW back in Prophecies when you needed 8 live people to clear it. And in Factions as well, before Nightfall really turned up the power creep with Heroes and Paragons and SF. I remember numerous occasions of yelling at people about not taking quests else they screw us on clearing things with NPC's that would die horribly and wipe the run. That was a different time for me. I just don't care to deal with other people in games socially anymore. It's a tiresome chore for me, one I don't need or want.

I'll say this in closing about raid content in GW 2: I am not interested based on my personal situation in instanced content like that. But so long as developing it doesn't significantly impact Living Story and Open World development, go for it, ANet. Long as I get mine, others can get theirs. Call my stance unfair and selfish if you like, but I openly admit it's unfair and selfish cos IMO that's the way the world works more often than not.

[Meledelion]

Well, neither in my case. I abhor raiding*, but I did it for exactly the reason Kelimbror gave: power progression. It's literally the only way to better your character past a certain point, particularly in WoW but also in some other MMOs.

Seeing the content was sometimes cool. Serpentshrine Cavern, no, looked exactly the same as Steamvaults to me. Sunwell, yes, both aesthetically pleasing and felt like something different.

"Look cool"? Depends on what game, but in WoW tier sets have been hideously ugly since T6 at the absolute latest. Maybe if you mean "cool" as in "I'm a raider!" perhaps for some people. I think of all the gear I've ever sported in WoW I was probably most proud of my PvP gear though.

* I think the people who enjoy raiding for the sake of raiding are team players, which I am not. My reaction to downing bosses is never elation, it's relief that a large group managed to accomplish something in spite of itself.

I find this very odd. You literally don't get anything from the numbers (power progression) unless you're aiming to top DPS meters but for that you need a good team with all the buffs and ppl to share the buffs etc.
What is it specifically that you like about getting "200 more strength"?

That's normal, while I like running dungeons in GW2 I don't like all by a longshot but it's still safe to say that I like running dungeons.

What I meant was that raid gear is always looked up to. I remember walking around in Naxx 25 gear and pugs being amazed. I remember flying around on my Proto-drakes and people saying it was cool. I remember rocking my Algalon title and randoms PMing me "woah cool".
To me that doesn't matter, I liked downing algalon (and all other fights) because it means you did the content "perfectly" and that's what brings me satisfaction. Striving for perfection and getting as close to it as possible.

I wouldn't call myself a team player at all, if it was possible I'd have loved to raid with 24 clones of me controlling the other toons but meh. The relief is something I totally get, failing at yog because ppl can't stop attacking and finally doing it gave me the "finally you managed to control your hands" sort of feeling. But when I did 10mans with a stacked team and you'd just power through stuff, that's the joy of raiding to me.
Another thing was that our DPSers would have competitions on who'd top charts and independent judges would decide a winner (staying alive was a big factor).

- - - Updated - - -

I did do FoW back in Prophecies when you needed 8 live people to clear it. And in Factions as well, before Nightfall really turned up the power creep with Heroes and Paragons and SF. I remember numerous occasions of yelling at people about not taking quests else they screw us on clearing things with NPC's that would die horribly and wipe the run. That was a different time for me. I just don't care to deal with other people in games socially anymore. It's a tiresome chore for me, one I don't need or want.

I'll say this in closing about raid content in GW 2: I am not interested based on my personal situation in instanced content like that. But so long as developing it doesn't significantly impact Living Story and Open World development, go for it, ANet. Long as I get mine, others can get theirs. Call my stance unfair and selfish if you like, but I openly admit it's unfair and selfish cos IMO that's the way the world works more often than not.

I take it you pugged FoW? There was no shouting in my guild runs at all.

That's all I'm asking for. A-net hinted at wanting to make a new type of fight for GW2, so I'd love it if that actually happened instead of the introduction of TACO 1.2. It's absolutely fair for you to want to keep getting the content you like and it's normal that you want a-net to keep giving you that.

[lawow74]

It depended. Usually when I went it was with my guild, or later allied guilds. Sometimes we had to pick up a random or two, and there was always a 'don't talk to so-and-so' warning made going in. Sometimes, of course, people didn't listen and, hey, wipe right off the bat. Once Heroes came along it became much, much easier cos Heroes always did what they were told to do. If you knew how to handle them, or even just set up simple spam builds they could faceroll and still use target calls to focus them properly, they could be very effective. I remember the Kurzick FF with Heroes back in the day, too. I knew someone who farmed the max-level survivor title using that.

[Fencers]

I think the people who enjoy raiding for the sake of raiding are team players, which I am not.

I suspect there is a lot of truth in this honestly. As it seems a large intersection between solo and team orientated players is how & when game systems require cooperation.

Naturally, solo players by their very nature would be less enthused for highly structured and regulated forced grouping. Where as those that enjoy the MMO part of MMORPGs more so than the RPG seem more likely to find appeal in the logistical and coordinated offerings of these games.

One group of players are interested in the wrong genre or playing inappropriately.

[lawow74]

One group of players are interested in the wrong genre or playing inappropriately.

And yet by trying to draw in the solo player but then saying 'the endgame content is group-oriented if you want a sense of progression beyond level cap', they are just asking for players to make the activity less fun for BOTH kinds, the solo and group player. The solo player wants to progress but has no viable alternative outside of the group content(or unsub and wait for a new expansion which is not what the game company wants), and the group player wants to be with other group players in preference to the solo player who is mostly interested in themselves and can/will hinder the group player by vanishing when they have what they're after.

That's why I'm all for them adding true viable alternatives to getting Ascended gear outside of crafting in these proposed raid instances. Some people HATE crafting. They want to beat enemies to get their best gear. I'm of the opposite bent. I HATE RNG gear acquisition. For once, my desires are sated in that respect, expensive time-gated system or no. I can make what I want(more or less, looking at you, Jewelcrafting), but the level of RNG for Ascended gear is so ludicrous ANet may as well be taunting you while they're at it.

[Fencers]

And yet by trying to draw in the solo player but then saying 'the endgame content is group-oriented if you want a sense of progression beyond level cap', they are just asking for players to make the activity less fun for BOTH kinds, the solo and group player.

That would be poor game design. Not a genre specific or a player issue. A poorly designed game is poorly designed.

Players of a particular genre with misplaced desire or expectation of an otherwise functioning concept or design is their mistake and ignorance.

Not all MMOs or MMORPGs have a dissonance in their gameplay expression.

[Svifnymr]

I find this very odd. You literally don't get anything from the numbers (power progression) unless you're aiming to top DPS meters but for that you need a good team with all the buffs and ppl to share the buffs etc.
What is it specifically that you like about getting "200 more strength"?

Same reason to get exotics or ascended when you can still complete objectives in greens, because it's easier to do other content when your gear is better. Enemies fall easier, you don't fall as easy. There's also the goal oriented nature of it ("I want to keep up") and of course for some games there's a cosmetic side to it (tier sets being different color and armors locked behind content).

Of course, if folks are doing raids for the fun of it, why restrict gear behind the raid-wall?

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And yet by trying to draw in the solo player but then saying 'the endgame content is group-oriented if you want a sense of progression beyond level cap', they are just asking for players to make the activity less fun for BOTH kinds, the solo and group player. The solo player wants to progress but has no viable alternative outside of the group content(or unsub and wait for a new expansion which is not what the game company wants), and the group player wants to be with other group players in preference to the solo player who is mostly interested in themselves and can/will hinder the group player by vanishing when they have what they're after.

The one example that springs to mind was the one PvP achievement for childrens week. "Forcing" non-PvPers to go into these battlegrounds, making their life miserable as well as the folks they're playing with that actually ARE interested in PvP. Made both sides unhappy.

There are people that level through dungeons in WoW, but I'm not even sure if they're "group oriented" anymore, since most such runs are just no-talk speed runs. They provide an entire game solo and then tell you "stop, now you need a group if you want to play".

Playing SW:TOR during the GW2 lull, really has reminded me how much I hated other players in WoW/TOR. "Stealing" nodes, "Stealing" spawns, the more people in an area, the more irritating it gets. I tend to do other things while playing, so I don't want to group with people. A guy on Hoth actually called me names for not grouping when he couldn't handle some sensor array guards efficiently...

[Meledelion]

Same reason to get exotics or ascended when you can still complete objectives in greens, because it's easier to do other content when your gear is better. Enemies fall easier, you don't fall as easy.

There's also the goal oriented nature of it ("I want to keep up") and of course for some games there's a cosmetic side to it (tier sets being different color and armors locked behind content).

Of course, if folks are doing raids for the fun of it, why restrict gear behind the raid-wall?

Yes but what do you aim to achieve then? You get the gear as a means to do the raids (since you can't now, or you want it easier) then. You do it because you want to do the content smoother/faster/...
If the stats are what it's all about you'd just craft your ascended gear and call it a day since you got the stats.

Keep up with what? Nobody is getting more stats than ascended so once you crafted that you kept up and you've achieved your goal. Again if you're not happy now this isn't the reason why you want more stats. It's quite obvious that looks have nothing to do with stats, especially with transmutations being here etc.

Just give people something specific as a reward. Fractals have fractal weapons, PvP players have /rank and glorious armor and the (as of yet none existing) raider gets nothing.

[nevermore]

I think gear progression (aka 'treadmill') is quite an awful never-ending downward spiral anyway, but you only notice this once you play an MMO without it.

What exactly is the point of getting new gear in an MMO with constant gear progression?
1. Becoming stronger so your team will have a better chance of clearing the next raid tier.
2. Becoming stronger so you clear the current tier faster
3. New looks to transmog, show off, prestige. Shiny things other people don't have.
(4. Some DPS classes probably love seeing bigger numbers.)

#1 is actually a bit of a logical circle-jerk. The next tier will be harder because people will have better gear, and people need better gear because the next tier will be harder. Repeat 3-4 times until the next expansion. Gear reset. Back to step one.

#2 is kind of a fair point, once you've cleared a raid a few times you'll probably want to faceroll a bit more. Clearing Black Temple for a year was goddamn boring, but there was that one guy who needed that one item... so we had to. But then again if there's no gear treadmill and people are REALLY bored of a specific raid you wouldn't do it again in the first place. Sounds like a win to me.

#3 is what motivated me to raid (other than the joy of teamwork, adrenaline rush, good community, etc). And as far as I know it was the main motivation for the vast majority of the people I played with. That server-wide announcement you get when you defeat a heroic end boss, and then the title that comes with it.
I went back to WoW for a few weeks this August and people STILL messaged me about my Death's Demise title. It's been 6 years since I got it. Where's the gear that I got from Ulduar though...? Yeah, exactly.

I don't think Ascended gear in GW2 really counts as 'gear progression' in the traditional sense. It makes you more powerful, but that extra power is beyond unnecessary. There's nothing in GW2 that you can't do without Ascended gear, and people (theoretically) have zero reason to actually get said gear.
It's just a very transparent time/material blackhole that gives the OCDs and the perfectionists some extra homework to do. But it is essentially pointless (unless you want to unlock the gear skins, in which case yeah fair point).

[Svifnymr]

Yes but what do you aim to achieve then? You get the gear as a means to do the raids (since you can't now, or you want it easier) then. You do it because you want to do the content smoother/faster/...
If the stats are what it's all about you'd just craft your ascended gear and call it a day since you got the stats.

Right, in GW2, you get your ascended and you're at the top of the power food chain, in a treadmill, you're not. Your statement was "why do you need more power" for the treadmill, if you're not raiding. The answer is that the power is still useful to every other facet of the game, so why be weakened if you don't raid?

Keep up with what? Nobody is getting more stats than ascended so once you crafted that you kept up and you've achieved your goal. Again if you're not happy now this isn't the reason why you want more stats. It's quite obvious that looks have nothing to do with stats, especially with transmutations being here etc.

That was in reference to WoW, most of my reply was about WoW given your statement was about why would you need more power in WoW. (WoW being any treadmill game, of course.) I mentioned the GW2 examples to illustrate that you do indeed generally get the best you can get, even if it's not required to complete content.

Just give people something specific as a reward. Fractals have fractal weapons, PvP players have /rank and glorious armor and the (as of yet none existing) raider gets nothing.

Unique rewards are good, and to be clear I have no problem with adding a raid style event so long as (like lawow) it doesn't detract from content I play regularly.

But how many complaints will there be that the rewards aren't enough for the time spent?

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I think gear progression (aka 'treadmill') is quite an awful never-ending downward spiral anyway, but you only notice this once you play an MMO without it.

I raided in Wrath, but not in Cata. In Cata I really noticed it because my bank of alts was always "behind" on things. Sure it wasn't mandatory, but when I spend over a month to get my blacksmith some weapon designs from the stupid fiery front or whatever it was called, I'd expect that sword to be equal to say regular raid once I got the mats to make it.

But nope, it was pretty well spelled out that if you don't raid, you're not entitled to the current power tier. Because spending a month of dailies and such isn't as much work as wandering into a raid and rolling good.

I don't think Ascended gear in GW2 really counts as 'gear progression' in the traditional sense. It makes you more powerful, but that extra power is beyond unnecessary. There's nothing in GW2 that you can't do without Ascended gear, and people (theoretically) have zero reason to actually get said gear.
It's just a very transparent time/material blackhole that gives the OCDs and the perfectionists some extra homework to do. But it is essentially pointless (unless you want to unlock the gear skins, in which case yeah fair point).

Ascended is only really "gear progression" (in the treadmill sense) because it wasn't in there from the start. It's "mandatory" nature would still have been the same had they been in from the start.

[Meledelion]

You're mistaken, I wasn't talking about WoW at all I was talking about raiding where (as I mentioned before) there doesn't have to be a stat increase every time.

The person I responded to specifically mentions greens vs exotics vs ascended so it should be clear that I wasn't talking about WoW at all.

[Fencers]

#1 is actually a bit of a logical circle-jerk. The next tier will be harder because people will have better gear, and people need better gear because the next tier will be harder. Repeat 3-4 times until the next expansion. Gear reset. Back to step one.

This is somewhat of a fallacy. Difficulty in vertical progression systems and devices used in the metaphor or expression of gameplay are often the same. That is to say, in a tiered progression systems tier 3 is exactly as difficult as tier 1 if tier 3 requires a progression though all preceding tiers.

I specifically say "somewhat" in that the only break in a limited linear system/device is the inclusion of mechanical, logistical &/or compound operation.

[Svifnymr]

You're mistaken, I wasn't talking about WoW at all I was talking about raiding where (as I mentioned before) there doesn't have to be a stat increase every time.

The person I responded to specifically mentions greens vs exotics vs ascended so it should be clear that I wasn't talking about WoW at all.

.

That post is WoW, you responded to it (even mentioning 200 more strength), I responded to you...

But anyway, it doesn't matter to the point, which was simply that wanting more power doesn't have to mean you want it to raid. Just because you don't "need" the power to access content, doesn't mean you don't want to have it for doing what you do, only better. Locking top-tier gear behind raids hinders that in ways I spelled out.

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This is somewhat of a fallacy. Difficulty in vertical progression systems and devices used in the metaphor or expression of gameplay are often the same. That is to say, in a tiered progression systems tier 3 is exactly as difficult as tier 1 if tier 3 requires a progression though all preceding tiers.

"Difficulty" in this case meant "numbers". Even if the mechanics of the fight are equal in intricacy, tier 2 will be locked behind a gear wall if you lack tier 1 gear. You won't be able to compete in tier 3 without tier 2 gear.