Guild Wars 2: The One Thread

[rhandric]

This is somewhat of a fallacy. Difficulty in vertical progression systems and devices used in the metaphor or expression of gameplay are often the same. That is to say, in a tiered progression systems tier 3 is exactly as difficult as tier 1 if tier 3 requires a progression though all preceding tiers.

I specifically say "somewhat" in that the only break in a limited linear system/device is the inclusion of mechanical, logistical &/or compound operation.

They're "equally" difficult if you're in the gear they're tuned around you having. If you don't follow the raid progression, later raids in a vertical progression system are tuned harder, numerically speaking, even if the mechanics are equally difficult.

[Meledelion]

That post is WoW, you responded to it (even mentioning 200 more strength), I responded to you...

The first paragraph mentions WoW, it's not about WoW it gives it as an example. My answer was generic because I assume all (mmo)RPGs have a stat named strength. I deliberately avoid other stats such as Critical Damage, Armor Penetration, Healing Power, Boon Duration to keep my answer non specific.

The problem is that I specifically mention ascended gear (making it clear I'm talking about GW2 in my mind) to which you reply with vertical progression, gear treadmill and so on which made it look like you're injecting WoW when I wasn't talking about it.

I'll clarify what my points are for clarity.

1. Raids and vertical progression (aka gear treadmill) aren't linked. Just because WoW and it's clones do it that way doesn't make it so. Raids from WoW (BT, Kara,... you know the list) don't stop being raids if you take the treadmill away from WoW.
2. A-net wants to implement new content "raids" and are asking the community to give ideas. Many people seem to want non-instanced/open world fights, which IMO are already in the game in two forms World Bosses (and temples) and Living Story (marionette, Scarlet).
3. Raiding for stats is silly since stats don't do anything for you. If you want more stats to make fights smoother, it means you're still interested in the content you just need some extra help. If you want stats to top meters the goal is topping meters not getting more stats. I can't imagine why getting 200 more strength would satisfy someone as a goal.

[Fencers]

"Difficulty" in this case meant "numbers". Even if the mechanics of the fight are equal in intricacy, tier 2 will be locked behind a gear wall if you lack tier 1 gear. You won't be able to compete in tier 3 without tier 2 gear.

They're "equally" difficult if you're in the gear they're tuned around you having. If you don't follow the raid progression, later raids in a vertical progression system are tuned harder, numerically speaking, even if the mechanics are equally difficult.

I stated if later tiers required completion of the preceding. The difficulty is the same in this scenario when vertical progression is wrapped in a limited linear system. With the exceptions already stated in my previous post.

[rhandric]

I stated if later tiers required completion of the preceding. The difficulty is the same in this scenario when vertical progression is wrapped in a limited linear system. With the exceptions already stated in my previous post.

Check the context of what you were responding to, which we then responded to. The claim is that later content is harder to force players to get gear, which then makes the next content harder for the same reason. I.E, if you have T1 content, and T0 gear, then you have X difficulty. If you then complete T1 and get T1 gear, then when T2 comes out it has to be harder than T1, relative to T0 gear, or it'll be comparatively easy to those who completed T1 and are thus T1 geared. Essentially, (T1/T0)=(T2/T1)=...=(TN/TN-1).

Calling that statement a fallacy because "it requires completion of the preceding" (mandated how, exactly?) is naive at best.

[Svifnymr]

The first paragraph mentions WoW, it's not about WoW it gives it as an example. My answer was generic because I assume all (mmo)RPGs have a stat named strength. I deliberately avoid other stats such as Critical Damage, Armor Penetration, Healing Power, Boon Duration to keep my answer non specific.

The problem is that I specifically mention ascended gear (making it clear I'm talking about GW2 in my mind) to which you reply with vertical progression, gear treadmill and so on which made it look like you're injecting WoW when I wasn't talking about it.

The point I was discussing was the concept of "if you don't raid then why would you need the gear". I didn't quote entire posts, I quoted the parts that had a bearing on that subject. They were related to WoW, but also GW2 and I mentioned both in my reply. So I'm not really sure why you're debating the content I quoted when it's right there anyway.

I'll clarify what my points are for clarity.

1. Raids and vertical progression (aka gear treadmill) aren't linked.
2. A-net wants to implement new content "raids" and are asking the community to give ideas.

Both I agree with.

3. Raiding for stats is silly since stats don't do anything for you. If you want more stats to make fights smoother, it means you're still interested in the content you just need some extra help. If you want stats to top meters the goal is topping meters not getting more stats. I can't imagine why getting 200 more strength would satisfy someone as a goal.

Getting the most powerful items in the game will help you complete all content quicker. You've even argued that point when we've discussed speedruns before. In addition you've pointed out that in Wv, the more powerful gear makes a difference.

The point is that in treadmill games, you need to raid to get that most powerful gear. The game is set up to make sure that you cannot get comparable gear through other venues. This is not true in GW2, currently. The issue that is open for debate is how many folks ONLY raid for that power option.

If GW2 does NOT give more powerful items, will those same folks still do the raids?
If GW2 DOES give more powerful items, will it turn off all the folks that don't want to raid?

Though mostly it of course comes down to "will raid content provide enough return on the development time invested".

[Fencers]

Check the context of what you were responding to, which we then responded to. The claim is that later content is harder to force players to get gear, which then makes the next content harder for the same reason. I.E, if you have T1 content, and T0 gear, then you have X difficulty. If you then complete T1 and get T1 gear, then when T2 comes out it has to be harder than T1, relative to T0 gear, or it'll be comparatively easy to those who completed T1 and are thus T1 geared. Essentially, (T1/T0)=(T2/T1)=...=(TN/TN-1).

Calling that statement a fallacy because "it requires completion of the preceding" (mandated how, exactly?) is naive at best.

I said somewhat of a fallacy because there are variations of the mechanism that can lead to content being more demanding successively. I also specifically chose to comment and isolate only a portion speaking on a mechanism and did not seek or actually address the context the quoted portion was made in reference to- thus the reply was targeting the mechanism itself only (no quote back, isolated section, no direct address of user).

There is no tier 0. It's not possible. Tier 1 is the first tier, tier 2 is the second, etc of a vertical progression structure. Tier 1 is the first step, so to speak.

Mechanics can exist that mandate and require the completion of previous content successively; such as attunement or statistical blocks such as "Hit Rating". Those are direct mechanical requirements to tiered progression in these type of systems.

It can often be misunderstood that tier 2 is harder, but only relatively so by comparison of pre tier 1. For if a system requires successive gains one is exactly as "strong" relativistically at tier 2's entry point as at the tier 1 entry point.

[Meledelion]

Hurray for clarity.

Getting the most powerful items in the game will help you complete all content quicker. You've even argued that point when we've discussed speedruns before. In addition you've pointed out that in Wv, the more powerful gear makes a difference.

The point is that in treadmill games, you need to raid to get that most powerful gear. The game is set up to make sure that you cannot get comparable gear through other venues. This is not true in GW2, currently. The issue that is open for debate is how many folks ONLY raid for that power option.

If GW2 does NOT give more powerful items, will those same folks still do the raids?
If GW2 DOES give more powerful items, will it turn off all the folks that don't want to raid?

Yes I agree, but then you're getting that gear to make the thing you like doing better/smoother. E.G.: I crafted ascended gear since that 9% increase means the window for dieing is smaller making a run more smooth. If it had no impact on the content I enjoy, I wouldn't have crafted it. (like AR infusions).

This is the same thing, you don't get satisfaction from just the stats. I'll give an example:
During WotLK many PvE items were very strong in Arena. Even though I didn't like raiding I did it to get the gear because I wanted to use it in Arena.
Even here you did the content which you liked not for the stats but to make your Arena play better, I can't imagine anyone going "OK I got this sword with more strength, I'm done."

I'm betting most will.
I'm betting most will and even those who like raids will too. (like me)

[carnifex2005]

Custom gold/gem exchange is back!

https://forum-en.guildwars2.com/foru...st#post4527266

[rhandric]

tier 2 is harder, but only relatively so by comparison of pre tier 1.

And that's exactly what we've been saying. In a treadmill mmo, TN is harder than TN-1 in equal gear, leading to the need to gear up in TN-1 before approaching TN. It feeds on itself, requiring each subsequent tier be more difficult, numerically, to compensate for the increased power granted by each tier.

And, for clarification purposes, T0 is possible - it's the preraid gear (and T1's gear requirement/balance).

[Meledelion]

"requiring each subsequent tier be more difficult, numerically"
With this you mean that boss has to deal more damage and have more health right?

[rhandric]

"requiring each subsequent tier be more difficult, numerically"
With this you mean that boss has to deal more damage and have more health right?

In a treadmill system, yes.

[Fencers]

And that's exactly what we've been saying. In a treadmill mmo, TN is harder than TN-1 in equal gear, leading to the need to gear up in TN-1 before approaching TN. It feeds on itself, requiring each subsequent tier be more difficult, numerically, to compensate for the increased power granted by each tier.

In a required system of advancement the successive increase in numerical difficulty is effectively null. When the previous stage of advancement is required for entry, the difference between t1 and t2 (numerically) is irrelevant. Hence it is somewhat of a fallacy to think raids get harder in many of these treadmill MMOs- if I may be a little crass about it, it's all the same shit. So to speak.

And, for clarification purposes, T0 is possible - it's the preraid gear (and T1's gear requirement/balance).

Not possible. It's a contradiction. You can not be on level 0 if the system measures progress from 1 through N. 1 is your start point, pre-1 or zero, is simply not playing the content or engaging the system.

[Meledelion]

Fencers, you are both saying the same thing. The difference is that Rhandric (and others) consider grinding out gear in dungeons as T0 seeing as it's not raids it doesn't deserve to be called the first raid tier but since it's "required" they list it.

Technically crafted works as well so you are correct in saying that T0 doesn't exist in that sense.

[Fencers]

Fencers, you are both saying the same thing. The difference is that Rhandric (and others) consider grinding out gear in dungeons as T0 seeing as it's not raids it doesn't deserve to be called the first raid tier but since it's "required" they list it.

Pre-raiding is irrelevant to the discussion of successive tier mechanism as concerns raiding. I am talking about the specific device by which required advancement through tiers can be understood as "doing harder content". Though it is very likely to be just as hard as the previous tiers.

This is especially true in bimodal 2nd era MMORPG design. That is the second mode one enters into- the distinct modal difference in play advancement from non-raiding to raiding. The former often delineated by "leveling", the latter by "getting gear"... which is really kinda just leveling up in way.

Honestly, it's all the same.

[Lane]

What is it specifically that you like about getting "200 more strength"?

I like feeling that my character(s) have some way of improving beyond max level. At the time, that was the only way. Fortunately, most games have evolved to offer alternate means of power progression even if it's just being able to run heroics to buy the previous tier with currency.

One group of players are interested in the wrong genre or playing inappropriately.

This is why I agree whenever someone says, "Blame WoW." My first ever MMORPG experience was Asheron's Call and I hated it. I'd heard EQ was even worse, which I couldn't even fathom. At the time, I'd been playing Diablo 2 for years, that was more my thing in terms of enjoyment.

When WoW came out, my friend who I'd played D2 with kept trying to get me into it and I kept saying, "But it's an MMO, and MMOs suck." He kept assuring me it wasn't like that, so finally I caved and decided to give it a try. Loved it. As much as people claim WoW's UI ripped off EQ, it felt like a natural progression of D2 to me, which made it very easy to get into. The environments were beautiful, the lore was interesting, I enjoyed my class, the combat was fun, there was a huge world to explore, etc. Didn't have to rely on anyone else save for dungeons (which I mostly skipped in the beginning) and the occasional group quest I wasn't able to solo (rare).

Raiding? Completely foreign concept to me. Never experienced it anywhere else. Zero introduction to it in 60 levels worth of play. Just suddenly there as the "end game". So, no, I never got the impression I was playing "inappropriately". I also wasn't interested in a genre at the time, just WoW.

Probably if WoW had been just like AC or EQ I wouldn't have lasted a month and I suspect the 'MMO genre' would look a whole lot different.

[nevermore]

In a required system of advancement the successive increase in numerical difficulty is effectively null. When the previous stage of advancement is required for entry, the difference between t1 and t2 (numerically) is irrelevant. Hence it is somewhat of a fallacy to think raids get harder in many of these treadmill MMOs- if I may be a little crass about it, it's all the same shit. So to speak.

This is literally the point I was trying to make though.

If you take away the numbers and only look at the green and red bars moving on your screen, you won't be able to tell whether you're in T1 or T3 (assuming you're wearing the required gear for the given raid). As in, the relative difficulty doesn't change tier-to-tier.
Hence why I personally think the gear treadmill is a pointless circle-jerk that should be thrown out the window all together.

Not possible. It's a contradiction. You can not be on level 0 if the system measures progress from 1 through N. 1 is your start point, pre-1 or zero, is simply not playing the content or engaging the system.

Now you're just being technical for the sake of it. The expression "tier zero (T0)" refers to the entry level (pre-raid) gear that is required to succeed in a T1 raid instance. It _is_ an essential part of raiding, as it grants entry into the actual raiding scene so to speak.

The actual end-game raiding 'system' starts with gathering your initial gear set to enter the first raid, so if you really want to be unnecessarily pedantic then let's call this initial phase T1 and the first raid T2. *sigh*

Even better, if we want to treat raiding as a separate system, we must treat the "T0" gear acquisition as a precondition to entry. -- which, again, would be an essential part of the summary of the system.

[Fencers]

So, no, I never got the impression I was playing "inappropriately".

Understandable.

Probably if WoW had been just like AC or EQ I wouldn't have lasted a month and I suspect the 'MMO genre' would look a whole lot different.

Definetly. World of Warcraft was a great shift in MMO design. But it is also one of the few (read: only) MMORPGs that operates totally in the manner that it does. WoW is more of an exception than norm, though it's wild popularity creates an expectation that is abnormal.

This is literally the point I was trying to make though.

I was not disagreeing with you, per se. I just used a snippet of your post because I found it highly interesting to talk about a mechanism of "treadmilling" in game design.

Now you're just being technical for the sake of it. The expression "tier zero (T0)" refers to the entry level (pre-raid) gear that is required to succeed in a T1 raid instance. It _is_ an essential part of raiding, as it grants entry into the actual raiding scene so to speak.

I understand what the user was trying to suggest by tier 0. But it is neither relevant or accurate to my talking point concerning the specifics of (required) tiered advancement.

It is also not applicable to all MMORPGs in 1st and 2nd era design. It is somewhat of an exception to have a preamble of sorts before approaching the first stage of the penultimate game goal.

[lawow74]

Custom gold/gem exchange is back!

https://forum-en.guildwars2.com/foru...st#post4527266

This is working much better than the old system now that they got rid of that 400-at-a-time bullshit as the only way to do gold->gems.

[nevermore]

Is this Rytlock? :O



(from twitter.com/GuildWars2 )

[Vizardlorde]

yay we are gona have blind kittycow samurai!!!