1. #37701
    Quote Originally Posted by Bovinity Divinity View Post
    "But you could craft that Mystic Claymore for the Reaper collection by saving up Mystic Coins, not spending gold!"
    *stares at stack of mystic coins just sitting there because I've never bothered with mystic forge crafting*

    Hey, at least I can sell them for a decent amount of gold when I'm too lazy to stash them in my bank : |

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    Shit, I totally forgot the Tengu briefly got involved in this story arc and...disappeared after that one episode. Man, it really does seem obvious that there was a big internal pivot halfway through this "saga" and they moved most of their staff/resources to the expansion and told whatever remaining team was left to figure out how to finish the story without changing anything, leaving with a piecemeal, lackluster, incomplete arc. Like, the more I'm reminded of some of the story beats they introduced and then immediately abandoned, and thinking more on ways they could have restructured things for a more satisfying arc that would have actually delivered on "expansion-worthy" living story like they promised.

  2. #37702
    To be honest, the dragons stopped being interesting or believable as a real threat to the world after we blasted one of them out of the sky with the phaser banks of the NCC-1701 Enterprise.

  3. #37703
    Quote Originally Posted by Bovinity Divinity View Post
    To be honest, the dragons stopped being interesting or believable as a real threat to the world after we blasted one of them out of the sky with the phaser banks of the NCC-1701 Enterprise.
    Zhaitan? At least there was some proper buildup for that one. Primordus us supposed to be like, the "big daddy" of elder dragons, so he should have taken a lot more to take out than this, and Jormag basically just ending with a straight up brawl rather than her trademark manipulation was...damned boring. The dragon fights seemed to get better over time, I think it was the Kralk fight(s) that felt pretty proper epic and that one was the last fight before this.

    Watching more WP (he's salty, I know, but he remembers a LOT more than I do) I'm fully on board with his position (similar to mine) that much more was planned but that staff and budget were pulled from IBS halfway through to work on End of Dragons. And rather than pivot with their story (potentially only taking out one of the two, or putting both on "ice" for a bit so we can deal with them later) they forged ahead and tried to do their "best" with a skeleton crew and limited resources. There were some great cinematic moments in the final fight, but damn if it didn't strip everything that supposedly made both dragons "them" away from them and just turn them into pretty empty husks just watching their champions get their asses handed to them by a few named NPC's (missing TONS in the fight) and some canon fodder.

    I forgot about Zoja and shit even, though I imagine her failure to return is more of a budget/planning issue with getting Felicia Day back to record some voice lines. Ah the risks and trials of getting celebrity talent involved without longterm contracts ensuring you have access to them a decade down the road when their characters may be needed again.

  4. #37704
    The Unstoppable Force PACOX's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Edge- View Post
    Man, haven't been able to get on when the public even is running but the more and more I think about it the more and more underwhelmed I am with this update. It's basically just the single fight and even that is...ok? I dunno, doesn't feel remotely as epic as other fights we've had against single dragons, yet here we got two. It kinda feels like they just wanted to rush and wrap things up as quickly as possible?

    I'm assuming they're leaving a lot of threads for the expansion or something because like...yo whatever happened with Eir's bow and shit? Wasn't that like, a huge part of the narrative for a while?

    Don't really watch him, but giving the WP videos a look now since he's way more up to date with all the story stuff etc. and I'm curious about his views on it (which I know are negative) given how big of a booster for the game he is.

    I really hope they have some huge things up their sleeve for the expansion, because they're not going into it off the back of a fantastically well received update/arc. If it's another S5-esque "And we also have SHIRTS! SHIRTTTTSSSSS!" event I'm gonna be sad. But I'll pick up the expansion anyways, I'm nowhere near as salty as I was post-HoT when I sat on the PoF expansion for a while because I was still pissed off at the game.
    The only thing I can say is that the last 4(5?) releases are one 'episode'. Remember they took the final episode then chopped it up, less content each drop but faster drops. But yeah, it's really just the one encounter...

    Technically it's great. It's one of better designed open world fights...but it's hard to get over it all just being the one encounter. That might be why they gave us a free ascended and the two items you can get from achieves /a backpiece and infusion) aren't too bad.

    I'm really glad it's all over. I saw a dev post that read as if they were tired of it as much as players were. The jist of it is that they've switched to EOD full time a year ago and the state of the world complicated the process to wrap up the season. It got to the point where it became a bit a chore to go back and finish but they couldn't just leave as it was.

    The Season 5 reveal smelled like NCSoft trying to pull rank Anet. Things seemed to have settled down since, quite of few devs came back, Anet has been putting up good numbers. I'm thinking the expansion reveal will be like the one for POF. I simple but effective twitch stream. Anet is relatively small compared to the the games they compete against, it's a wonder they've been in the game for so long.

    I recommend MigjtyTeapots video or Mukluk. Less salt while still being able to be critical. WP is good, my man is very salty though.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Bovinity Divinity View Post
    To be honest, the dragons stopped being interesting or believable as a real threat to the world after we blasted one of them out of the sky with the phaser banks of the NCC-1701 Enterprise.
    "Commander you have to stop killing dragons!!!“

    I'm going to kill a god, an immortal demi-god, another dragon, and then two dragons at once!"

    Maybe we are the bad guy???
    Last edited by PACOX; 2021-05-04 at 01:44 AM.

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  5. #37705
    Quote Originally Posted by PACOX View Post
    Maybe we are the bad guy???
    We are 100% the bad guys.

    Also, I do enjoy how Aurene like, super conveniently solved all those super serious problems around the power of the dragons flowing to each other and shit? I was kinda down with the angle that we had to stop killing the dragons and instead find ways to continually keep them contained. At this point the dragons feel like chumps though we've killed what, 5 in a decade now? >.>

  6. #37706
    Quote Originally Posted by Edge- View Post
    We are 100% the bad guys.

    Also, I do enjoy how Aurene like, super conveniently solved all those super serious problems around the power of the dragons flowing to each other and shit? I was kinda down with the angle that we had to stop killing the dragons and instead find ways to continually keep them contained. At this point the dragons feel like chumps though we've killed what, 5 in a decade now? >.>
    I just keep telling myself that the dragons aren't really actual beings, they're just symbolism of a civilization moving out of mythology and into science/technology. Or some story element like that.

    It's the only way I can really reconcile them going from "eternal forces of nature that are integral to the world, beings that we're not even certain we can fight, much less should" to "Oops, I accidentally Kong'ed the Gojiras so hard that two of them died at once this time. Sorry, Taimi."

  7. #37707
    I'll say this...I'm kinda back into GW2 again after this update? Like, not for the update, but like, overall. Finally played the second half of the Drizzlewood Coast map since I never actually did that and...seriously, this is by far my favorite zone in the entire game. It shits out a metric fuckton of loot, you can contribute without only engaging in combat, you move through the zone and there's a story being told as you progress, the entire keep siege is pretty rad (minus the end boss being the same one from bjora but WHATEVER).

    I really need to go back and play the earlier episodes again now that they're voice and I'm working on some achieves. Might not be a bad excuse to get any masteries points I was missing, because apparently I need like another 15 to finish unlocking everything.

    Weird, I'm both the most kinda "meh'd" at the content in the game game since HoT launch (which I loathed), but at the same time kinda enjoying rediscovering the game for being an excellent "passive game" where I can just either log in and do some events to rewards or I can slowly putter away at achieves.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bovinity Divinity View Post
    It's the only way I can really reconcile them going from "eternal forces of nature that are integral to the world, beings that we're not even certain we can fight, much less should" to "Oops, I accidentally Kong'ed the Gojiras so hard that two of them died at once this time. Sorry, Taimi."
    This is why, even though I pay more attention to the story in GW2 than most other games (save maybe Secret World), I'm glad I don't pay too close attention. Seriously, we're averaging an elder dragon every two years. Anything you kill on a bi-annual basis (even if you cheat and get a twofer) ain't that scary in my book.

  8. #37708
    Judgement: What a cop-out.

    After how we got to chase Kralkathorik all over the map, basically had an epic entrapment mission, which ended with him forming an island this definately feels lackluster.
    Especially given how last time these 2 threathened to clash it was said it can't happen... cause it would destroy the world.

    Albeit they tried to give us an "epic" visual spectacle it ended up being:
    - a few DBZ-like fight scenes between the 2 champions... (as they brawl around us while we take out those crystals)
    - a 10 second final clash scene... where the brainy dragon somehow completely overpowers the big beafy dragon, breathes down it's neck and by that... basically kills them both?

  9. #37709
    The Unstoppable Force PACOX's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zmagoslav View Post
    Judgement: What a cop-out.

    After how we got to chase Kralkathorik all over the map, basically had an epic entrapment mission, which ended with him forming an island this definately feels lackluster.
    Especially given how last time these 2 threathened to clash it was said it can't happen... cause it would destroy the world.

    Albeit they tried to give us an "epic" visual spectacle it ended up being:
    - a few DBZ-like fight scenes between the 2 champions... (as they brawl around us while we take out those crystals)
    - a 10 second final clash scene... where the brainy dragon somehow completely overpowers the big beafy dragon, breathes down it's neck and by that... basically kills them both?
    True true, except lore-wise they did mess up the world. Half the zones are supposed to be either frozen or on fire but none of that means anything as soon as you leave the DRMs. The DRMs might as be alt-reality like fractals (lore-wise).

    I was reminded that they gave us 2 keys with the patch too. TWO. They knew what they did.

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  10. #37710
    To be honest I like the way the ending for Primordus and Jormag played out although I would have preferred it be an actual map. I like that they killed each other but it would have been better if we had an event where we guide both forces to the trap.

  11. #37711
    Quote Originally Posted by PACOX View Post
    I was reminded that they gave us 2 keys with the patch too. TWO. They knew what they did.
    I forgot about that! Was wondering why the random keys popped up but it makes more sense now, maybe they were looking to soften the blow of what they knew would be a pretty uh...polarizing? conclusion to an "expansion-worthy" saga that didn't seem to bring anything actually "expansion worthy".

    Quote Originally Posted by qwerty123456 View Post
    To be honest I like the way the ending for Primordus and Jormag played out although I would have preferred it be an actual map. I like that they killed each other but it would have been better if we had an event where we guide both forces to the trap.
    Lore-wise it's...pretty bad. Half the noteworthy characters from this "saga" alone were functionally MIA for this final fight. There was precisely no buildup for Primordus at all, he just kinda...shows up. Jormag loses all her character traits and doesn't even really have a voice line IIRC, the two just kinda like...sit there watching their champions fight and then kill each other in the least characteristically Jormag way possible but don't worry it didn't destroy everything because Aurene exists to fix every plot problem they write themselves into a corner on.

    Remember when we couldn't kill dragons anymore because it was supercharging the others and would have made them even bigger threats? Remember when supergenius Taimi put two of them to sleep because that was the only way to handle them? NBD, now we're just gonna easily manipulate them into killing each other with zero apparent consequences.

    For supposedly being the biggest baddies (and Primordus being the big daddy of them all), the dragons are pretty weaksauce chumps. For supposedly being a master manipulator, Jormag sure let herself get absolutely owned. For all Eir's bow mattered in kicking off literally all these events I guess it doesn't matter anymore. Tengu and Koda who? What's a Dragon's End and who is a part of it?

    I need to replay through the whole thing (and I kinda wanna do a longer replay through everything), but it feels like they dropped so, so, so much that they were building up over the storyline just to wrap it up ahead of the End of Dragons announcement in July. I'm just hoping that the expansion will be worth gutting the second half of the "saga" : /

  12. #37712
    Quote Originally Posted by Edge- View Post
    There was precisely no buildup for Primordus at all, he just kinda...shows up.
    There was. Jormag's motivation from the very beginning of the saga was amassing an army and powering up as quick as possible to fight Primordus.
    Quote Originally Posted by Edge- View Post
    Remember when we couldn't kill dragons anymore because it was supercharging the others and would have made them even bigger threats? Remember when supergenius Taimi put two of them to sleep because that was the only way to handle them? NBD, now we're just gonna easily manipulate them into killing each other with zero apparent consequences.
    That plot point was already resolved in S4 when Aurene became prismatic dragon who can contain all the magic without going insane, and it's why Kralk's death didn't cause any noticable damage (and leaving him alive was way worse, he was actively eating the Mists and causing timespace rifts everywhere). Something that happened in S3 has no relation because situation changed. Putting them to sleep then was the best decision available then. There are consequences of letting both Primordus and Jormag die at once, Aurene let most of the magic get away to DSD and it's probably going to seriously backfire when we get to that plot.
    Quote Originally Posted by Edge- View Post
    For supposedly being the biggest baddies (and Primordus being the big daddy of them all), the dragons are pretty weaksauce chumps. For supposedly being a master manipulator, Jormag sure let herself get absolutely owned.
    They were manipulated into facing each other agains their own will while their powers were equally matched. Ignoring that Aurene's power came out of the left field, I don't see what both dragons could have done to change the outcome.
    Quote Originally Posted by Edge- View Post
    For all Eir's bow mattered in kicking off literally all these events I guess it doesn't matter anymore.
    How it should've mattered when it's stolen by Jormag's champion who obviously has no desire to shoot Jormag with it?
    Quote Originally Posted by anaxie View Post
    Looking for Raid.
    They never found one though

  13. #37713
    Quote Originally Posted by Rogalicus View Post
    There was. Jormag's motivation from the very beginning of the saga was amassing an army and powering up as quick as possible to fight Primordus.
    Barely a mention, that's not any buildup at all. They tried to show some of it with the DRM's, but those were just...bad.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rogalicus View Post
    That plot point was already resolved in S4 when Aurene became prismatic dragon who can contain all the magic without going insane, and it's why Kralk's death didn't cause any noticable damage (and leaving him alive was way worse, he was actively eating the Mists and causing timespace rifts everywhere). Something that happened in S3 has no relation because situation changed. Putting them to sleep then was the best decision available then. There are consequences of letting both Primordus and Jormag die at once, Aurene let most of the magic get away to DSD and it's probably going to seriously backfire when we get to that plot.
    I guess but it feels...lame? Unsatisfying? Aurene is basically the "I fix everything" character. Joko causing problems and you need to quickly kill him off? Aurene. Worried about Kralk's magics? Aurene. Need to hand TWO dragons at once? Aurene. I dug a lot of the earlier buildup around her and her relationship to the commander but it feels like she's the convenient mcguffin whenever they need to move the story along and don't want to actually deal with a plot thread/arc that they've started.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rogalicus View Post
    They were manipulated into facing each other agains their own will while their powers were equally matched.
    Which feels weird for Jormag since that's like...legit her "thing"? And I'll have to double check, but I feel like even with the infusion of other magics into them from the other dragons we've killed Primordus should still have been way stronger. Hell, the shrunk him WAY down and sized Jormag up a bit just to make them seem "matched" in a sense. Primordus is supposed to be WAY, WAY, WAY bigger.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rogalicus View Post
    How it should've mattered when it's stolen by Jormag's champion who obviously has no desire to shoot Jormag with it?
    I mean...it's Braham's mom's bow? It's still insanely powerful? It was a pretty central part of the story for a while and now that it's wrapped there's not even a mention from Braham about getting it back? Though maybe it's for the best, I desperately hope we get rid of Braham sooner rather than later.

    Unrelated, man has the GW2 community been this like...kinda dumb? Discussion thread about tech updates for the game in the next expansion and if folks think they'll be coming. Lots of chatter about dx9 limitations but...apparently most folks think that's the fault of GPU makers and their drivers and now Anet sticking with two-decade old tech that hasn't been used and that almost every game has moved away from over the years?

    I desperately hope we get a DX11/12 update for End of Dragons. I'm seriously getting really annoyed with my FPS dipping or staying in the 40's despite having a solid computer (32GB DDR4, i5-10600, 3070) and changing graphics settings does little to nothing. And yes, I'm on the 64 bit client. The game desperately needs performance improvements so we can actually enjoy it a bit, and maybe a bit less visual clutter so that we can actually see something in a world boss fight.

  14. #37714
    Quote Originally Posted by Edge- View Post
    I forgot about that! Was wondering why the random keys popped up but it makes more sense now, maybe they were looking to soften the blow of what they knew would be a pretty uh...polarizing? conclusion to an "expansion-worthy" saga that didn't seem to bring anything actually "expansion worthy".



    Lore-wise it's...pretty bad. Half the noteworthy characters from this "saga" alone were functionally MIA for this final fight. There was precisely no buildup for Primordus at all, he just kinda...shows up. Jormag loses all her character traits and doesn't even really have a voice line IIRC, the two just kinda like...sit there watching their champions fight and then kill each other in the least characteristically Jormag way possible but don't worry it didn't destroy everything because Aurene exists to fix every plot problem they write themselves into a corner on.

    Remember when we couldn't kill dragons anymore because it was supercharging the others and would have made them even bigger threats? Remember when supergenius Taimi put two of them to sleep because that was the only way to handle them? NBD, now we're just gonna easily manipulate them into killing each other with zero apparent consequences.

    For supposedly being the biggest baddies (and Primordus being the big daddy of them all), the dragons are pretty weaksauce chumps. For supposedly being a master manipulator, Jormag sure let herself get absolutely owned. For all Eir's bow mattered in kicking off literally all these events I guess it doesn't matter anymore. Tengu and Koda who? What's a Dragon's End and who is a part of it?

    I need to replay through the whole thing (and I kinda wanna do a longer replay through everything), but it feels like they dropped so, so, so much that they were building up over the storyline just to wrap it up ahead of the End of Dragons announcement in July. I'm just hoping that the expansion will be worth gutting the second half of the "saga" : /
    Primordus is just a walking volcano. I don't remember anything mentioning he was the greatest Elder dragon. Jormag staying back could be explained by knowing they are each other's weaknesses and only fights Primordus in the end as a last ditch effort cause Ryland isn't winning. Primordus can be explained hanging back because Braham is its brains.

    Eir's bow served it's destiny. Had it not been stolen Braham would have never become the champion of Primordus.

    There were consequences. Although Aurene was able to deal with alot of the energy she says a bunch of it went missing. And we can't be sure how long it takes for leylines to overcharge. It's possible Aurene might not be able to unclog the drains forever on her own. The Elder dragons job is to just absorb a fuck ton of magic so I assume the planet doesn't explode. As long as you got a good dragon doing the job there isn't really a point keeping the others alive if you want to keep your lives.

    Pretty sure you see Tengu and Koda in the mission. Maybe who shows up is based on who you helped during their events?

    I'm not a fan of the dragon response missions and I don't see many people will be doing the content 4 years from now unlike map metas. Even the masteries are worthless for any content besides dragon response missions. I haven't done all the old living world stuff so there might be some other masteries just as useless for the rest of the game but I haven't seen any yet.

  15. #37715
    Quote Originally Posted by Edge- View Post
    Barely a mention, that's not any buildup at all. They tried to show some of it with the DRM's, but those were just...bad.
    There's a speculation that the name Icebrood Saga hints that there would've been similar content properly building up Primordus with proper final showdown between dragons. Obviosuly with less than stellar reception of IBS devs decided to axe the story and go for expansion instead, rushing through the plot. We'll probably never know what the real original plan for saga was, but lack of centaurs and krait from the trailer is kind of telling.
    Quote Originally Posted by Edge- View Post
    I guess but it feels...lame? Unsatisfying?
    I'm not denying that. I can rationalize what we got, but I still feel underwhelmed, because we should've gotten much better story instead of this rushed handwavy bullshit.
    Quote Originally Posted by Edge- View Post
    Hell, the shrunk him WAY down and sized Jormag up a bit just to make them seem "matched" in a sense. Primordus is supposed to be WAY, WAY, WAY bigger.
    There's a speculation (yet again) that Primordus's real body is liquid lava and he's able to change his size and shape however he wants.
    Quote Originally Posted by Edge- View Post
    I mean...it's Braham's mom's bow? It's still insanely powerful? It was a pretty central part of the story for a while and now that it's wrapped there's not even a mention from Braham about getting it back?
    There was bigger stuff to care about in the finale. He may get his bow back after that.
    Quote Originally Posted by Edge- View Post
    Unrelated, man has the GW2 community been this like...kinda dumb? Discussion thread about tech updates for the game in the next expansion and if folks think they'll be coming. Lots of chatter about dx9 limitations but...apparently most folks think that's the fault of GPU makers and their drivers and now Anet sticking with two-decade old tech that hasn't been used and that almost every game has moved away from over the years?
    I've never seen this take, most people agree that shit performance is due to technical debt of making the game on first game's engine and lack of proper updates for the engine itself. Game is too reliant on CPU and doesn't even properly utilize all the cores. I'm afraid at this point they aren't going to upgrade it.
    Quote Originally Posted by anaxie View Post
    Looking for Raid.
    They never found one though

  16. #37716
    The Unstoppable Force PACOX's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Edge- View Post

    I desperately hope we get a DX11/12 update for End of Dragons. I'm seriously getting really annoyed with my FPS dipping or staying in the 40's despite having a solid computer (32GB DDR4, i5-10600, 3070) and changing graphics settings does little to nothing. And yes, I'm on the 64 bit client. The game desperately needs performance improvements so we can actually enjoy it a bit, and maybe a bit less visual clutter so that we can actually see something in a world boss fight.
    Yeah the game does is CPU bound. Even then its to a single core. They game can actually run on machines with crap GPUs if they have enough RAM and a decent CPU, and of course can/will run graphic on monster PCs.

    https://github.com/megai2/d912pxy

    A DX12 wrapper for GW2. It boosts FPS in most cases. Not as good as Anet actually having a DX11/12 client but better than nothing for most people.

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  17. #37717
    Oh the fuck? You need to grind out garbage DRM defense tokens to unlock more masteries for Dragon Slayer?

    I haven't even looked at most of the rewards but there are a ton of really cool skins in there. I'm sad they gated all this stuff behind god-awful DRM's and I don't think I have it in me to grind this shit out even if I want the rewards.

    May just finish the bloody Waystation track and say fuck it with the rest of the Dragon Slayer masteries. Good lord, just when I'm "getting back into the game" I'm reminded of why I loathe the way Anet designs their grinds.

  18. #37718
    Quote Originally Posted by Edge- View Post
    Oh the fuck? You need to grind out garbage DRM defense tokens to unlock more masteries for Dragon Slayer?

    I haven't even looked at most of the rewards but there are a ton of really cool skins in there. I'm sad they gated all this stuff behind god-awful DRM's and I don't think I have it in me to grind this shit out even if I want the rewards.

    May just finish the bloody Waystation track and say fuck it with the rest of the Dragon Slayer masteries. Good lord, just when I'm "getting back into the game" I'm reminded of why I loathe the way Anet designs their grinds.
    bUt ThErE's No VeRtIcaL PrOgReSsIoN

    Honestly, that whole line pisses me off a little. I could be back up and running at full speed in WoW at any time, ready to play any role of my class, ready to jump into any content.

    GW2 technically doesn't have a gear grind and technically doesn't have traditional progression, but damn if there's not constantly grinds all up in your face in one form or another. I couldn't even loot the chests at Drakkar when I did it the other day, never got those masteries!

  19. #37719
    Quote Originally Posted by Bovinity Divinity View Post
    bUt ThErE's No VeRtIcaL PrOgReSsIoN

    Honestly, that whole line pisses me off a little. I could be back up and running at full speed in WoW at any time, ready to play any role of my class, ready to jump into any content.

    GW2 technically doesn't have a gear grind and technically doesn't have traditional progression, but damn if there's not constantly grinds all up in your face in one form or another. I couldn't even loot the chests at Drakkar when I did it the other day, never got those masteries!
    It's not vertical progression though, especially since it's for stuff that's only relevant to that story content. It's very much horizontal progression just...a shitty grind for it. It's all absolutely optional shit, and I'm going to treat it that way and probably never bother with it unless it's absolutely necessary for some achieves with good rewards or something.

    Anet just sucks at consistently finding ways to add grinds without making the grinds awful. Some are good, but plenty are like this garbage where the only way to progress through it is by doing content literally nobody actually likes.

  20. #37720
    Quote Originally Posted by Edge- View Post
    It's not vertical progression though, especially since it's for stuff that's only relevant to that story content. It's very much horizontal progression just...a shitty grind for it. It's all absolutely optional shit, and I'm going to treat it that way and probably never bother with it unless it's absolutely necessary for some achieves with good rewards or something.

    Anet just sucks at consistently finding ways to add grinds without making the grinds awful. Some are good, but plenty are like this garbage where the only way to progress through it is by doing content literally nobody actually likes.
    I know, I know, it's technically not vertical and all that. It's just that I always feel more barriers between me and [thing I feel like doing] in GW2 than in other games. Even if it's just gold or stupid masteries, or agony resistance, or doing a living story chapter or other "technically not vertical" systems.

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