Guild Wars 2: The One Thread

[Valeron]

Do you think there are team tactics in an FPS or a game like Vindictus?

Edit: I wanted to edit this by stating something that I hardly ever see mentioned here. Don't forget about cross class combos. The obvious one an elementalist wall of fire and then a ranger or warrior firing their ranged weapon through that wall of fire to add an effect to the enemy. There are quite a bit of the cross class combinations but they can only be found out by discovery.

[Trollsbane]

I know there definately can be. (Talking FPS here. I have never played Vindictus) But I also know that they often go out the window and no one cares unless they are RL friends or in a guild.

Take Battlegrounds in WoW for instance. (Cause everyone knows that) Team tactics win the day. Work together, win. Fight on the roads or in the middle, lose. (unless you have a strat to make it work of course) Anyway, the consequence of not working together is very evident. You most likely will not win.

Now in GW, the devs have said that they don't want you to ever feel like you have to group or talk to another player. So right there, it tells me that the logic that was the WoW winning BG team is not used in GW. If there is no need to group or talk to other players, then the content can not be made with the thought in mind that it is needed at all.

So, if there is no need to talk to another person, that means that there is no need to group with another person, which means that the content is not designed around group mechanics. It's designed with the thought that 5 people fighting this event may not work together at all, and we need to accomodate that.

So the best answer is to make each person be able to keep themselves alive by their own means. Self heals, LoS, dodge, etc. And that totally takes away any need to ever worry about the 4 other random people fighting next to you. If they die, then the event scales down. You can still complete it.

The cross class combos is a cool feature for sure, but is also one used to simply add flare. Ther is no real bearing on the game other than coolness factor. If i'm an archer, i am not gonna go running around for a wall of fire to shoot through. If I'm an elementalist, I am not going to run around looking for a warrior to whirlwind.

[LeBoucher]

- For the last time, there are no healing roles in the game. Sure there might be professions that can do better than others in healing, as well as taking damage (tanking), but there are no damned roles.

- Animations are really nice, I can't see anyone complaining about them here. Have you played Rift? You most assuredly have played WoW. In that case, animations are spectacular in GW2 compared to two former. I will agree that the faces are blank, it almost feels like I'm gonna get raped by a Charr when I stare into their eyes. I'll just have to play it safe by putting a steel plate over my ass.

- On the point of single player, grouping, and how teamwork will happen: Think of it like TF2; when you play the game long enough, you begin to understand the roll of each class, and how to work the class correctly in every situation. As and Engineer you learn the best place to put your sentry, and as a demoman you learn where to place stickies in order to stop the opposing team dead in their tracks. Once a player learns these things, then they ultimately contribute to the team effort without even knowing it. Sometimes it even goes a bit further where a Pyro will be nice and put out a player who is on fire. TEAMWORK! YAY! The same thing will happen in GW2.

About single player though: Let's face it, besides from PvP the rest of the game will be uber casual. But that's not a problem considering it's F2P and there is a lot to explore in Tyria alone. Perhaps in a future expansion they'll decide to add huge player raids instead of just world events. Until then, I can accept that not implementing huge raids was a good idea considering they want to focus on important things as well as making the game a personal experience for the player. And that alone makes me a happy camper.

[Valeron]

Certain events are most certainly designed for more than just one person. The Shatterer event is one of those. Also you cannot complete a dungeon by yourself either.

[Nerio]

Been hyped up on this game for a while now; hope it comes out this year

[Trollsbane]

I know and never said there were roles in this game =/

I hear what the thought is on how grouping could work. I just don't see how it will actually play out in, let's face the facts here, a genre of memememe people. Even in WoW, where teamwork was needed in a raid, there were plenty of shaman who wouldn't drop the windfury totem for the melee. There were plenty of hunters who would not misdirect when they should have. etc. Why do you think this game will be different?

For the dungeons I agree with you. For Shatterer, while obviously designed for multiple people or you die, there still is no need to do anything with or for another player. I've seen that video from different perspectives enough to see pretty much no one doing anything useful for other people.

[Deleted]

Due to recent unsatisfaction with WoW i have started playing GW1 again. I didnt like it at all a few years ago, but it's like a breath of fresh air to me now. I can PvP to get loads of money, beautiful armor (female ranger Norn armor fuck yeah) and Hall of Monuments points to spend on Gw2. It makes the wait a lot less painful. I also enjoy how there are PvE and PvP versions of a skill, and its not confusing at all unlike what blizzard would want you to believe.

[Valeron]

For the dungeons I agree with you. For Shatterer, while obviously designed for multiple people or you die, there still is no need to do anything with or for another player. I've seen that video from different perspectives enough to see pretty much no one doing anything useful for other people.

Again, I have to remind you and others that what you see in the videos are people who don't know how to play yet. I'm sure you have to say that to those watching TOR videos. Here it is even worse since the system is just really different than any other mmo. Also keep in mind when judging how difficult an encounter is by the videos is that in the demos it is all dumbed down. They specifically said for the Shatterer that they wanted everyone to see the encounter so the difficulty of it was brought way down. When the game goes live you most certainly will have to work together or you will fail it.

[Deleted]

About single player though: Let's face it, besides from PvP the rest of the game will be uber casual.

What makes you say this? Why should i 'face' it?

GW1 had a fricking hard mode that affected every single pve mob in the game. There are many very difficult places to go to that can kick your ass if you fail but give great rewards if you dont. Im guessing the PvE will be fairly enjoyable as well and challenging in the 'Repeatable Dungeon' mode if Gw1 is any indication.

[Underskilled]

Something to note, April 28th is the birthday of Guild Wars, which means there's a VERY good chance Arenanet is going to do, or release something special that day.

[Trollsbane]

Again, I have to remind you and others that what you see in the videos are people who don't know how to play yet. I'm sure you have to say that to those watching TOR videos. Here it is even worse since the system is just really different than any other mmo. Also keep in mind when judging how difficult an encounter is by the videos is that in the demos it is all dumbed down. They specifically said for the Shatterer that they wanted everyone to see the encounter so the difficulty of it was brought way down. When the game goes live you most certainly will have to work together or you will fail it.

I can definately get on board with that. If you really do have to work together to get things done, then that's awesome. But I won't lie, my mind keeps going back to this thought process:

Now in GW, the devs have said that they don't want you to ever feel like you have to group or talk to another player. So right there, it tells me that the logic that was the WoW winning BG team is not used in GW. If there is no need to group or talk to other players, then the content can not be made with the thought in mind that it is needed at all.
So, if there is no need to talk to another person, that means that there is no need to group with another person, which means that the content is not designed around group mechanics. It's designed with the thought that 5 people fighting this event may not work together at all, and we need to accomodate that.

if I'm beating a dead horse, I'm sorry. I'm just interested in the game, and picking things apart to find answers and hear other people's thoughts on the discussion. Cause well, in a lot of GW2 threads, it's been full of sunshine happiness and I can't learn anything from just hearing people say how this will be the best game ever.

[Valeron]

What makes you say this? Why should i 'face' it?

GW1 had a fricking hard mode that affected every single pve mob in the game. There are many very difficult places to go to that can kick your ass if you fail but give great rewards if you dont. Im guessing the PvE will be fairly enjoyable as well and challenging in the 'Repeatable Dungeon' mode if Gw1 is any indication.

I doubt they will have something as soul crushing as the Domain of Anguish (when it first came out) in GW2.

---------- Post added 2011-04-27 at 01:14 AM ----------

I


if I'm beating a dead horse, I'm sorry. I'm just interested in the game, and picking things apart to find answers and hear other people's thoughts on the discussion. Cause well, in a lot of GW2 threads, it's been full of sunshine happiness and I can't learn anything from just hearing people say how this will be the best game ever.

Heh, I can certainly understand some doubt. Personally I don't mind if someone says they don't like a certain feature or even the game itself. What irritates me is when someone lies about the game or even distorts facts to suit their own agenda, either against or for the game.

One nice thing about the game is that it is a pick up and play game. It isn't designed around raids and gear so you don't have to plan your life around it. Also if you don't play it for a month you don't feel guilty about it since it's not designed to be a constant game like WoW is. It sounds like you are interested well enough. As long as the game comes out well made enough then get the game. If there are certain features missing or that you don't like then you can find another game to fill that certain craving. For example, if you are the type of player that really likes organized instanced raids then you won't find that in this game. Maybe play WoW or another raid game alongside it.

About April 28th, I hope it's a profession reveal.

[jvbastel]

Psh, cliff notes. Um... How does the removal of the trinity system really make this game more thana single player FPS game where you only nrely on yourself.

I think we'll have to wait and see what happens. It's definitely a bold move, and it can fail miserably, but I like it, since it's really the biggest change to the gameplay, and that's what the genre needs. It will need to be executed in a correct manner though. I agree that a system like this might make the game look like it's everyone for themselves, however, Arenanet is just using a different trinity, Damage/Support/control.

Control will be cc'ing/controlling the battlefield with area affects (guardian has a shield that reflects all projectiles back to the caster and can draw a line on the ground that is impossible to pass for enemies)
Support will have some offheals (although players shouldn't rely too heavy on them, it's been stated that selfheal is always the best heal) and probably skills like blind, buffs, etc... (I haven't looked into the skills all that much, don't want to spoil the entire game )
Damage is ... damage

The main focus of the game will still be taking the least possible damage while killing the boss. In a standard DPS/TANK/HEALER system, this is done by having a masochistic tank taking all the damage, while in GW, it will be by dodging, slowing mobs, good positioning and control.

That said, They will still need to execute it right, or the whole system might fail.

And if the entire game (leveling and "endgame") is dynamic events, then how is it considered a multiplayer game since the events can be done solo or with 50 people who don't give a damn about anyone else there, because they don't mater in the scheme one bit. =D

What Anet is trying to do, I think, is leave it completely up to the player, if you want to just go single player, you can, but if you want to play the game, and meet new people while exploring, make new friends, that's also encouraged. The problem with giving the player the choice is that the game will need a good, friendly community for this. The guild wars 1 community was always fairly mature and friendly (High end pvp players were the exceptions, since the could be quite elitist, which probably has a lot to do with the fact that if you were bad in pvp, it was rather obvious (W/Mo with mending anyone?)). For example, say you are a guardian fighting a bunch of pirates in a town together with an elementalist and a necromancer. When the pirates are killed, a new event starts where you can chase a few remaining pirates to their base. The odds are high that the other players will join, too. In events with a lower player count, this might encourage you to talk to the other player. Events with a larger amount of players will probably not get you new friends, since there's too much people. That's the main problem with rifts I think.
As for endgame, I don't think we've seen all there is to it yet, however, the real endgame atm is dungeons and raid world events. for the dungeons, you'll need a good group since they will be rather challenging, according to Anet, so you're encouraged to play with friends/guildies.

I am a fan of long winded discussions as opposed to the classic, "NO SWIMMING! RAWR RAGE!" that take up 10 pages for no reason.

And I thank you for that, it's better to have someone give constructive criticism

If it is all about you doing what you need to do and not relying on others, then why worry about others at all?

Remember that what we've seen as of yet is just a few (most of them dumbed down) dynamic events, we've seen no dungeons, no real raid events, no pvp, so most of the stuff we've seen is tailored for ad hoc groups, meaning it can't be too hard. I really want them to release a dungeon video soon, so we can see how people have to work together in them.

I think you read too much into the "you should never need to group or talk with other players"
What I think they meant is, you can, if you want, just level as if it were a single players game, and just ignore other players, and there's a great personal storyline (like TOR's) for that. But they also say the mechanics of the game (dynamic events etc.) lean towards ad hoc group creation/socializing. The same is true for TOR btw, haven't they stated that you will be able to get max level by playing your personal storyline only? (Or am i making stuff up now )

[Trollsbane]

What irritates me is when someone lies about the game or even distorts facts to suit their own agenda, either against or for the game.

Amen to that. lol <Crazily looks at the TOR thread>

The pickup game aspect is a key part for me. I'll have TOR as my primary game of course. But leading a guild means in order to stay sane, I need another outlet. And atm it's Minecraft, but when GW2 launches, it will be the new one for me. Honestly, I don't have the energy to delve into all the GW2 stuff like I do with TOR, and i'm mostly relying on things I see in this thread to let me know what's up with GW.

---------- Post added 2011-04-27 at 12:27 AM ----------

Good stuff JV. I get what you're saying. I probably am reading into that line too much.

And no, you can level to max by PvPing, but story quests taper down as you progress. Ie: homeworld, 80% story, next world, 50%, etc. =)

[jvbastel]

And no, you can level to max by PvPing, but story quests taper down as you progress. Ie: homeworld, 80% story, next world, 50%, etc. =)

Ah, guess I was mistaken, my bad then, I just hope bioware makes the non-story quests more interesting than for example rift
The main thing I'm worried about with TOR is that, although it looks like one of the best MMORPG's I've seen, it still has the same basic gameplay as WoW, The combat, apart from the cover mechanic (which looks really cool ) is just your straight-forward stand still and use skills (without the auto attack), and it's the same quests/dungeons to max level, then do raids or pvp. Don't get me wrong, it's a solid system, and it will probably be very polished from what we've seen as of yet. I just don't know if it can hold my interest for long, seeing as I'm getting a "been there, done that" feeling about it. I hope the personal storyline can keep it interesting.

Apart from that, the only thing I really worry about is TOR's community. The official forums are a mess, it's even worse than rift was

As I've stated before, I'm happy they'll be released roughly the same time (probably TOR sooner) and with 2 massive titles like this (I get the feeling tera is going to be a lot smaller in EU/US) WoW might get it's first little beating soon

[Trollsbane]

Well, I won't go much into TOR in this thread, but I think we're in for some big reveals in the near future. Especially in the pvp dept. The tweets from the fansite summit were overwhelmingly great.

---------- Post added 2011-04-27 at 12:46 AM ----------

The community is worrisome, but same goes for any big MMO nowadays. Luckily, I'm going in with a great group of people that I played WoW with for years. =)

[jvbastel]

Well, I won't go much into TOR in this thread, but I think we're in for some big reveals in the near future. Especially in the pvp dept. The tweets from the fansite summit were overwhelmingly great.

---------- Post added 2011-04-27 at 12:46 AM ----------

The community is worrisome, but same goes for any big MMO nowadays. Luckily, I'm going in with a great group of people that I played WoW with for years. =)

I'm looking forward to the pvp in both games, after wow, I really want to play an mmo with real pvp again, wow's pvp is just silly

As for the community, I'm glad anet decided not to have an official forum yet, as it only results in trolls anyway, a lot of people probably just join the forums to say how bad the game is going to be
GW2Guru forums has one of the most mature communities i've seen so far, although that won't necessarily be the same at launch

[Chrno]

i only played GW1 when it released (never really got into the first expansion) and man .... i loved that first game

If they make the high level dungeons anything like they made the underworld and the other high end dungeon back then (link shitty underworld vid of myself rofl) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=maetY8dPIDI i really wont be worried. Most PUGs horrible failed in those dungeons or only got a few bosses / mobs.

Honestly i think this games endgame is more focussed arround tactical PvP and 5-man dungeons. i think people should realise it's not the same game as WoW wich is more of a PvE game at it's core.

And Trollsbane i 100% know what you worry about and tbh i do aswell.
If the whole WoW community will switch to GW2 then arenanet is going to have a problem. During the times i played GW1 i found the most people allot more helpfull then in WoW. If all GW2 players are going elitist then we have a single player game like the LFG dungeon runs where people group up kill stuff and leave without saying a word.

sidenote:
don't forget the gear is a big factor in people being elitist and in GW the gear is the same so people might ( wishfull thinking here ) might be nicer in general.

[Sapho]

I'm gonna come back to the "not needing to work together therefore no one will socialise thing". One key point which hasn't been mentioned much in this debate is scaling. So, let's say two of you are fighting an event. Five more turn up and get stuck in. Suddenly, the event scales up to a level appropriate for a 7-person team. So it's not the equivalent of fighting an elite mob in wow, where you will struggle to solo but a couple of others can come help, with no more communication than "hi", and trivialise it. The encounter should (if Anet get it right) stay tough, which alone will make some communication helpful, if not essential.

In addition, as someone else has mentioned, there is a lot of synergy between professions. So to get back to our 7-person team. If one of them goes down, but the boss is of course still scaled for 7 people, you NEED someone to run over and help the fallen guy. You need to keep each other alive, buff each other, protect each other, take advantage of each others' abilities. I'll try and give an example, but like most examples it has its flaws, please don't view it too literally:
Take 7 mages in wow spamming a boss. They're gonna get eaten alive (assuming the boss is properly hard), even with use of cooldowns. Take 7 balance druids, and suddenly you have an interesting fight. There is no tank or healer, but people can heal themselves a bit, temporary bear form as a way of protecting someone while they get heals off etc. Now take that up another level to GW2, where the whole game is designed around making something like that work. This is how I visualise the dynamic events working. You will need each player's contribution, so you will need teamwork. My personal feeling is that this will encourage far more communication and teamwork than wow does: sure, wow raids require cooperation, but anything else? Levelling is solo, 5mans are rarely chatty, battlegrounds likewise. You only hit any sort of real group play at lvl85, and even then you don't need to do much.

IF Anet have got it right, I believe there will be plenty of opportunities for really strong cooperative play, while also providing the option of very enjoyable solo play.

[Blznsmri]

sidenote:
don't forget the gear is a big factor in people being elitist and in GW the gear is the same so people might ( wishfull thinking here ) might be nicer in general.

YOU DON'T HAVE A SUP VIGOR RUNE?! YOU'RE NOT IN FULL OBSIDIAN/ UW/ PRIMEVAL ARMOR! YOU'RE A FUCKING NOOB!

^ Shit seriously happens... And it's depressing when it does.