Guild Wars 2: The One Thread

[Mif]

I wouldn't pay much attention to Ziara.
If you look at his post history, you'll see he's just a SWToR uber fanboy that will say anything to talk down GW2.

[Deleted]

It's a bit unfair to think poorly of gear grinders or anyone who likes a gear progression. To be honest, it's been a staple of RPGs since the beginning. To fault someone for their sense of accomplishment is going a bit overboard imo. It's a way of life in and out of video games.

I like upgrading my gear. I like that if I excell at something, I get a reward. The carrot on a stick works for me. I don't need better pvp gear to kill someone. But I still enjoy the incentive and reward. I'm not afraid or less skilled because I like upgrades.

By following some of the logic here, it's being said that people that only play single player RPGs should not play GW2 because they play games that support and promote a gear progression system. You can't blame WoW for this. This is a genre thing.

If you are talking about an end game progression system exclusive to MMOs, you still can't just blame WoW. It's still a genre thing. And if people like that way of play, who are you to fault them for their concerns about the lack of that in GW2. It's what they enjoy.

I'll still have fun in GW2 without the gear progression. I still like gear progression. I still believe it provides more incentive to keep playing. It's almost subconscious. That doesn't mean I am wrong or that I shouldn't play the game because I have hangups about the lack of traditional endgame. It just means I like something that this game is not doing. And so what? It doesn't mean I can't or won't enjoy the game.

There is lot of players who think that MMO without gear treadmill can't work and go like "that suck, what's the point then??". Ultima Online didn't have gear treadmill, it's not some industry standard that MMO need to have it or it's automatically going to fail. What I wish is that these players who like gear treadmill so much is that they would understand that GW2 is not going to have such system and there is multiple MMOs in market they can play, so go play these instead of GW2. It's like no matter how many times Arenanet developers say that they don't want to add such grind in their game that there is still players who don't get it and act like thats impossible.

I don't like gear treadmill anymore (had my fair share of raiding hardcore in TBC), so I am not going to play games that have it. I am not going to play SWToR, I did not even try RiFT or Aion, but I can't wait for GW2. That's just my opinion and I understand some people like gear treadmill.

[Mothhive]

It's a bit unfair to think poorly of gear grinders or anyone who likes a gear progression. To be honest, it's been a staple of RPGs since the beginning. To fault someone for their sense of accomplishment is going a bit overboard imo. It's a way of life in and out of video games.

I don't think anyone in here was thinking poorly of gear grinders or people that like gear progression in general, just those people who state that that's the reason the game will be bad, the reason they won't try it, or the reason the game will fail. Those people are being a bit closed minded and can't seem to fathom that you can play a game for fun and challenge instead of needing to be better than other people simply because you put in more time.

I like upgrading my gear. I like that if I excell at something, I get a reward. The carrot on a stick works for me. I don't need better pvp gear to kill someone. But I still enjoy the incentive and reward. I'm not afraid or less skilled because I like upgrades.

Enjoying getting rewards is all well and good (although you shouldn't really need higher stats on an item to feel rewarded by earning it), but I think you're in the minority there. Most people who hardcore Raid/PvP are in it to feel superior to or dominate other people, people they commonly refer to as scrubs, casual, noobs, etc. We've all seen it before in WoW, when gear is made easier to acquire by "casuals", hardcore raiders throw a hissy fit because they're not quite as superior anymore.

When I was hardcore raiding, I did like to be rewarded for what I had done (well, RNG/DKP/Raid Leaders allowing), but my biggest pleasure was topping the charts. I know it's petty, but I'm uber competitive and just loved showing that I could perform better than other people. Unfortunately, that sort of mindset leads you to become reliant on running the gear treadmill nonstop in order to compete in regular MMOs because there's only so much that skill can help you when you're outgeared. Same with PvP. This is what lead to WoW feeling like a second job for me and the reason I stopped raiding (which lead to me quitting the game as there was nothing else to do).

By following some of the logic here, it's being said that people that only play single player RPGs should not play GW2 because they play games that support and promote a gear progression system. You can't blame WoW for this. This is a genre thing.

Well, if you look at recent singleplayer RPGs, gear progression is becoming less and less important. Take Mass Effect 2 and Dragon Age 2, compared to their predecessors they have very little gear progression at all. It's something that seems to be being phased out in favour of skill/story progression as RPGs evolve.

If you are talking about an end game progression system exclusive to MMOs, you still can't just blame WoW. It's still a genre thing. And if people like that way of play, who are you to fault them for their concerns about the lack of that in GW2. It's what they enjoy.

As I said earier, no one is faulting anyone for enjoying that system, just for seeing it as the only viable system. It's worked up til now because no one has offered an alternative to trapping people in a grind because that is the best way to hold onto subscriptions. Only time will tell which system becomes more popular, but hopefully GW2 will help lead the way to more games with lack of gear grind and lack of subscription fees.

[Wynnyelle]

snip

I can certainly understand people who enjoy gear progression. They like the feeling of being more powerful for the effort that they've put into it. It provides an incentive for them and it makes sense. There's nothing wrong with it. I don't like it, but I don't care if other people do. I was mainly referring to the people who think that gear progression is the ONLY way an MMO can work. There were plenty of people criticizing it saying that it's stupid, and that if you aren't playing for better gear, then what are you playing for in the first place? Which to me, seems like that they are either just so used to that style of game and are resistant to change or that they're insecure about everybody being on the same gear level and not having the advantage of having better gear.

[Trollsbane]

I agree with the points in the last few posts. And believe me, I know all to well about the ignorant assholes from my time in the TOR thread.

Perhaps I assumed too much in my post, but it's a constant point that comes up with GW2, and quite often the response from the fans is rather negative. It is a legitimate concern though. But I do agree it is not the only viable system.

[Barrowmore]

It's a bit unfair to think poorly of gear grinders or anyone who likes a gear progression. To be honest, it's been a staple of RPGs since the beginning. To fault someone for their sense of accomplishment is going a bit overboard imo. It's a way of life in and out of video games.

I like upgrading my gear. I like that if I excell at something, I get a reward. The carrot on a stick works for me. I don't need better pvp gear to kill someone. But I still enjoy the incentive and reward. I'm not afraid or less skilled because I like upgrades.

Do you honestly like grindy gameplay, such as daily quests in WoW or the same heroics over and over again for valor points? How about fighting in static, unchanging battlegrounds dozens of times until you can afford PvP gear? It seems repetitive and boring to me, and not worth the effort to get that "carrot on a stick", but that's just me.

[Mothhive]

Yeah, the problem with a few fans is that they will vehemently defend their game against any percieved attack/threat. Luckily there seem to be alot more level headed people than fanatics in the GW2 and SWTOR threads so we don't have to deal with that too often.

[Deleted]

i was bored so i went dumpster diving on other game forums to see how they are reacting to GW2 and i found this http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/to...3243254?page=1 and man do i wish i still had access to my WoW account just so i could reply /sigh.

Is it just me, but are majority of posts there positive about GW2 if you look different posters and not just same posters repeating how they hate GW2?

[Trollsbane]

Do you honestly like grindy gameplay, such as daily quests in WoW or the same heroics over and over again for valor points? How about fighting in static, unchanging battlegrounds dozens of times until you can afford PvP gear? It seems repetitive and boring to me, and not worth the effort to get that "carrot on a stick", but that's just me.

No, in fact. I don't do dailies and passionately hate them. I never farm heroics. A few runs is enough for me. I only do them more if it helps a guildmate. I hate alts (though that will change with TOR). I love battlegrounds and spend pretty much all my time outside of raiding in them. I don't find them static nor unchanging at all. Quite the opposite actually. I find them to be the one true dynamic thing in an mmo becuase of the player factor. It can always be different and a challenge. As far as the gear, it's just a nice incentive for me. I'll pvp in GW2 all the time and not care that i won't get gear for it.

[Odeezee]

It's a bit unfair to think poorly of gear grinders or anyone who likes a gear progression. To be honest, it's been a staple of RPGs since the beginning. To fault someone for their sense of accomplishment is going a bit overboard imo. It's a way of life in and out of video games.

I like upgrading my gear. I like that if I excell at something, I get a reward. The carrot on a stick works for me. I don't need better pvp gear to kill someone. But I still enjoy the incentive and reward. I'm not afraid or less skilled because I like upgrades.

By following some of the logic here, it's being said that people that only play single player RPGs should not play GW2 because they play games that support and promote a gear progression system. You can't blame WoW for this. This is a genre thing.

If you are talking about an end game progression system exclusive to MMOs, you still can't just blame WoW. It's still a genre thing. And if people like that way of play, who are you to fault them for their concerns about the lack of that in GW2. It's what they enjoy.

I'll still have fun in GW2 without the gear progression. I still like gear progression. I still believe it provides more incentive to keep playing. It's almost subconscious. That doesn't mean I am wrong or that I shouldn't play the game because I have hangups about the lack of traditional endgame. It just means I like something that this game is not doing. And so what? It doesn't mean I can't or won't enjoy the game.

to me acquiring gear for stats has MORE cons than pros:

Pros

• become MORE powerful for the tier the armor is aquired in
  

Cons

• TRIVIALIZES older content
• utilizes ANTI-SOCIAL systems like rng for loot drops and loot rolls, it also uses a need/greed system (ninja looting)
• CANNOT allow for scaling content to ensure equal level of difficulty at any tier of content
• combat is LESS skill based with perpetual increases in loot tiers
• creates artificial BARRIERS to content (gear checks)
• a much more DIFFICULT system to balance in both pvp/pve

[Mothhive]

I'll pvp in GW2 all the time and not care that i won't get gear for it.

You'll get gear for it, it'll just look awesome instead of having more stats!

[Odeezee]

Is it just me, but are majority of posts there positive about GW2 if you look different posters and not just same posters repeating how they hate GW2?

yes but i was highlighting the one i found most amusing since that seems like a weird reason to hate GW2 given the context of GW2's game mechanics.

That just makes me want it more. =(
IT WON'T BE CHRISTMAS WITHOUT RYTLOCK PLUSHIE.

and i only have one thing to say to you.....THIS

[Barrowmore]

I love battlegrounds and spend pretty much all my time outside of raiding in them. I don't find them static nor unchanging at all. Quite the opposite actually. I find them to be the one true dynamic thing in an mmo becuase of the player factor. It can always be different and a challenge.

What I meant by static battlegrounds was that the battlegrounds themselves do not change. The experience of participating in a battleground can, but the maps do not in tactical or significant ways. A couple examples of games that do are TF2 (engineer's teleporters and changing spawn points), and GW2. In GW2, major landmarks can be destroyed for alternate paths across the map, sort of like destructible rocks in SC2, but not as superficial as, say, the doors in Strand of the Ancients.

[Ronyx]

You'll get gear for it, it'll just look awesome instead of having more stats!

Honestly, THIS^ If you think about it you can really nail it down to a handful of basic reasons why gear progression is still a popular choice for MMOs and the players that play them. The aim of having gear as a form of progression is to give you something to shoot for. If you are in a top end guild that has excellent players and are able to down that super tough NPC or complete that certain group activity in a specific way, you will be rewarded for it. Humans by nature being very competitive, and with the majority of the gaming community being made up of males, the whole 'alpha male' deal kicks in. You want to be the best, and you want others in your social groups to recognise that you are indeed the best. That is why gear progression is put in place. Now in terms of how it's actually implemented, there's 2 ways: Looks and Stats. The fact is that looks are a very objective thing. Some players may like the look of a new piece of gear, while others won't. That's where the need for stats comes from. Even if that new helmet looks really crap, you're still going to try and get it because it has +0.5 of your core stat, and that will REALLY show everyone just how awesome you are, and it will most definitely help you 'pwn noobs' when you're out showing off your mad loot in PvP.

For GW2, they can get away with only having one of these two things in play: looks. They have made it very clear that PvP should not revolve around gear. To this end, they're not idiots and will still try to get players to go and complete the new content they release every few months. The only way they can really do this effectively is by having it appeal in as many areas as possible so that as much of their player base (and those still not playing the game) will want to go and play this new content. That's why they will need to bring in new gear which will look better and more unique than the previous content's gear to help bring players to that content. Don't get me wrong, it's not the only way to bring players to new content, but it will most definitely attract players such as myself moving away from the 'gear progression grind' feel of other games that still have that subconcious craving for the new shiny pixels brought in from time to time.

[Trollsbane]

to me aquiring gear for stats has MORE cons than pros:

Pros

• become MORE powerful for the tier the armor is aquired in
  

Cons

• TRIVIALIZES older content
• utilizes ANTI-SOCIAL systems like rng for loot drops and loot rolls, it also uses a need/greed system (ninja looting)
• CANNOT allow for scaling content to ensure equal level of difficulty at any tier of content
• combat is LESS skill based with perpetual increases in loot tiers
• creates artificial BARRIERS to content (gear checks)
• a much more DIFFICULT system to balance in both pvp/pve

Well, it also depends on which side of the fence you are on and what your motivations are.

A few pros not listed, for my opinion, would be:

-Utilizes a system to promote group play. You are all working for something tangible together.

-Allows for true personality to shine. You want to cry over gear or ninja things, you are shown the door. I don't want to play with those type of people and like kicking them from my guild.

-Promotes constant game growth by developers. Though not always the best, constant content is released in order to keep the carrot dangling.

-Combat can be more skill based and balanced IF design is done correctly. (Not so much a pro as it ia a rebuttle of your point. Alao, somethingthat makes me very happy in TOR cause this is true there.)

-Provides people with goals. It's good to have goals that you reach and can make more goals at that time.

---------- Post added 2011-09-10 at 09:14 AM ----------

What I meant by static battlegrounds was that the battlegrounds themselves do not change. The experience of participating in a battleground can, but the maps do not in tactical or significant ways. A couple examples of games that do are TF2 (engineer's teleporters and changing spawn points), and GW2. In GW2, major landmarks can be destroyed for alternate paths across the map, sort of like destructible rocks in SC2, but not as superficial as, say, the doors in Strand of the Ancients.

Ah gotchya. Well, that's a cool thing to be sure. I believe my other game ia doing something like that as well. But still, I dont mind static environment BGs one bit.

[Kakuzo]

The gear upgrades won't differ to much in GW2 (like tier 1 and tier 3 in wow for example). But there will be gear updates outside of PvP. And that will help you in WvWvW. Some people will have better gear, and they have NOT removed the whole gear progression thing. They just left it out of PvP, just as they did in GW1.


Sorry but from reading all of your posts on this page it seemed like some believe that all gear will do is make you look pretty, no just in PvP. But in PvE better and worse gear will be around, and there will be some kind of gear progression.

[Mothhive]

Really not sure about the reasons you gave Trolls

-Utilizes a system to promote group play. You are all working for something tangible together.

I don't think this is true in every case. With a group of friends, maybe, but in a pug, everyone is there for their own reasons. If 2 or more people in the group are after the same item, they are basically competing with each other. I'm sure most of us have seen people get upset that they lost a roll, complained it was better for their class/spec, that they needed it more, etc, etc, and end up leaving because of it.

-Allows for true personality to shine. You want to cry over gear or ninja things, you are shown the door. I don't want to play with those type of people and like kicking them from my guild.

Not quite sure what your point was, but it sounds like you're saying gear progression helps highlight assholes? lol Also, the 2 examples you listed (crying over gear and ninjaing) are caused by having a gear progression system in the first place.

-Promotes constant game growth by developers. Though not always the best, constant content is released in order to keep the carrot dangling.

Yeah, it's a way that ensures developers create more content to keep you hooked, but it doesn't garauntee quality, just more progression. Without gear progression, developers NEED to make their content entertaining/challenging in order for you to want to play it as you don't have the carrot of more powerful gear as an incentive.

-Combat can be more skill based and balanced IF design is done correctly. (Not so much a pro as it ia a rebuttle of your point. Alao, somethingthat makes me very happy in TOR cause this is true there.)

Not sure you countered what he was saying. With ever increasing tiers of gear, combat is only skill based once everyone earns the highest tier, and that will never happen as getting higher tier gear takes more time and effort than alot of people can afford to put in, which essentially means that no matter how good a player they are, they might not be able to compete with people with better gear, even if those people were not as skilled.

-Provides people with goals. It's good to have goals that you reach and can make more goals at that time.

Goals aren't exclusive to games with gear progression. In SWTOR you may be running a flashpoint for an awesome new lighhtsaber with +20 fttzzzzbew noises, but in GW2 you could be running a dungeon to get an epic looking item, see a new path through a dungeon, maybe come across a rare dynamic event, etc. Even if there aren't such obvious goals as better gear, people can often come up with their own, do achievements, minigames, PvP, explore or even just fool around with their friends and have fun.

[Barrowmore]

I'm surprised at how well both sides of this argument have been able to stick to objective facts. 4chan this is not.

[Mothhive]

The gear upgrades won't differ to much in GW2 (like tier 1 and tier 3 in wow for example). But there will be gear updates outside of PvP. And that will help you in WvWvW. Some people will have better gear, and they have NOT removed the whole gear progression thing. They just left it out of PvP, just as they did in GW1.


Sorry but from reading all of your posts on this page it seemed like some believe that all gear will do is make you look pretty, no just in PvP. But in PvE better and worse gear will be around, and there will be some kind of gear progression.

I think anyone who has been following GW2 closely already knows that there will be a little gear progression in PvE before it plateaus, we just don't really mention it much since it's fairly easy to get the highest quality gear and that there are various ways you can acquire it, so it's not a grind like other games.

[Odeezee]

the post of mine that you quoted was just emphasizing the most obvious differences between the two systems, i left out stuff they had in common.

-Utilizes a system to promote group play. You are all working for something tangible together.

is common between both gear systems.

-Allows for true personality to shine. You want to cry over gear or ninja things, you are shown the door. I don't want to play with those type of people and like kicking them from my guild.

not really a pro for a gear grind system as this type of griefing is completely negated in a gear plateau system.

-Promotes constant game growth by developers. Though not always the best, constant content is released in order to keep the carrot dangling.

is common between both gear systems.

-Combat can be more skill based and balanced IF design is done correctly. (Not so much a pro as it ia a rebuttle of your point. Alao, somethingthat makes me very happy in TOR cause this is true there.)

acquisition of gear in a gear grind system makes you more powerful, therefore the need for skilled play is reduced as your gear can do the work for you.

-Provides people with goals. It's good to have goals that you reach and can make more goals at that time.

is common between both systems

i understand that people may want a gear grind based system, but logically it makes little sense as it does more harm than good. that's why i said before it's as though people who come from MMOs with this system have Stockholm Syndrome.

oh and another con is it rewards time played OVER skill, especially in pvp

for those who think that in GW2 has no loot progression, at the maximum level, remember that is does have loot progression it is just cosmetic in nature, so while you may not get statistically stronger compared to other players and the environment at least you will look damn good doing it.