Guild Wars 2: The One Thread

[Maarius]

I see where their rage is coming from, this is a big cut in the freedom of making a build

[Loaf Lord]

what exactly are they changing about the traits?

[Kelesti]

I see where their rage is coming from, this is a big cut in the freedom of making a build

In a sense, it lets some traits be stronger than others, and you can balance accordingly, so long as you're allowed to take from a previous tier as well it shouldn't be too much of an issue.

We only have one elite, if they're balancing traits around an idea similar, I wouldn't be too concerned.

[Maarius]

with 10 points spent into the line, you only have access to some (I think it was 6) of the traits. 20 points gains you access to a few more and only 30 points let's you choose from all 12 traits of a line.

This is bad because until now you could take a trait of your choice with 10 points in a line... now this specific trait could be locked until you spend 30 points into the line. This restricts buildmaking a lot.

Now spending only 10 points into a line isn't as viable anymore since it seems that powerful traits are further into the tree. This is just a old talent tree again.

---------- Post added 2012-06-02 at 12:12 AM ----------

In a sense, it lets some traits be stronger than others, and you can balance accordingly, so long as you're allowed to take from a previous tier as well it shouldn't be too much of an issue.

We only have one elite, if they're balancing traits around an idea similar, I wouldn't be too concerned.

I think you are confusing traits with utility skills, since elite skills have nothing to do with traits

this are traits:




I love what they did with utilities/elites... this kind of tiering makes sense, it gives you a kind of progression during leveling.



about traits: skip to 1h 55min
http://de.twitch.tv/pcgamer/b/320044809

[Kelesti]

with 10 points spent into the line, you only have access to some (I think it was 6) of the traits. 20 points gains you access to a few more and only 30 points let's you choose from all 12 traits of a line.

This is bad because until now you could take a trait of your choice with 10 points in a line... now this specific trait could be locked until you spend 30 points into the line. This restricts buildmaking a lot.

Now spending only 10 points into a line isn't as viable anymore since it seems that powerful traits are further into the tree. This is just a old talent tree again.

---------- Post added 2012-06-02 at 12:12 AM ----------


I think you are confusing traits with utility skills, since elite skills have nothing to do with traits

this are traits:

I knew what traits are, no confusion at all. Some traits are still inherently better than others, this is no surprise. The design makes sense, in a way, if at 20 points I have access to all of the 20 and 10 for that particular spot.

Yes it sucks, but it's a much easier way to balance and keep all the traits interesting. But I do admit it falling into old-talent-tree design (when you put it that way, which is quite accurate I should add) leaves a bad taste.

[Maarius]

I knew what traits are, no confusion at all. Some traits are still inherently better than others, this is no surprise. The design makes sense, in a way, if at 20 points I have access to all of the 20 and 10 for that particular spot.

Yes it sucks, but it's a much easier way to balance and keep all the traits interesting. But I do admit it falling into old-talent-tree design (when you put it that way, which is quite accurate I should add) leaves a bad taste.

oh, ok

well it takes a lot away if you ask me. Balanced builds (e.g. 10-20-10-20-10) won't be viable anymore, because you are definitely forced to push deeper into the lines (to get the more powerful traits). This is bad. Build-Variety decreases and you will see a lot more 30-30-10-0-0 builds... I can't call this a good decision - No way It would have been better if they had nerved the stronger traits a bit in order to make them all more equal.

[Blufossa]

oh, ok

well it takes a lot away if you ask me. Balanced builds (e.g. 10-20-10-20-10) won't be viable anymore, because you are definitely forced to push deeper into the lines (to get the more powerful traits). This is bad. Build-Variety decreases and you will see a lot more 30-30-10-0-0 builds... I can't call this a good decision - No way It would have been better if they had nerved the stronger traits a bit in order to make them all more equal.

Damnit, I don't want them to go the way of the WoW or SWTOR. I want to be able to have weird builds and play with them!

I don't want to be pigeonholed anymore.

[Fencers]

In a sense, it lets some traits be stronger than others, and you can balance accordingly, so long as you're allowed to take from a previous tier as well it shouldn't be too much of an issue.

We only have one elite, if they're balancing traits around an idea similar, I wouldn't be too concerned.

I agree with this. One the problems I pointed out was the illusion one could do whateverthefuck with the old trait system. In practice, certain traits and passive benefits always weighted heavier than others w/r/t build intentions; Dual Swords/Rifle Warrior, 2s Axes/Longbow Warrior, 2x Turret Engineer and so on.

Far easier to balance the more linear a system is designed. Balancing the trade-off costs accordingly-- another point I raised about a year ago. Because I am amazing, as usual.

[Kelesti]

oh, ok

well it takes a lot away if you ask me. Balanced builds (e.g. 10-20-10-20-10) won't be viable anymore, because you are definitely forced to push deeper into the lines (to get the more powerful traits). This is bad. Build-Variety decreases and you will see a lot more 30-30-10-0-0 builds... I can't call this a good decision - No way It would have been better if they had nerved the stronger traits a bit in order to make them all more equal.

Ghostcrawler brings this up all the time, is then everything feels weak, a "what's the point" factor.

30-20-20, or 30-30-10 has a much better plan than 10-10-20-10-20, no matter the illusion of "choice".

[DrakeWurrum]

I see where their rage is coming from, this is a big cut in the freedom of making a build

I'm pretty sure you just need to buy a certain amount of skills from a certain tier, and then you can access the skills at the next. Has nothing to do with building, it just gates your skill learning.

As to the traits change, I think this should allow them to make certain traits actually awesome. Some of them, as we know them from the last beta build, were great concepts, but were tweaked to be... well, just... numerically lame.

[Loaf Lord]

It FEELS like a bad thing, but in the end I think it'll be easier to balance. I don't think arenanet planned to do this because they're big evil meanies who want to take your freedom away while they twirl their moustaches... just a hunch.

[Malthurius]

Can someone explain the tiered system to me? I don't understand what it means exactly.

[Maarius]

Ghostcrawler brings this up all the time, is then everything feels weak, a "what's the point" factor.

30-20-20, or 30-30-10 has a much better plan than 10-10-20-10-20, no matter the illusion of "choice".

I'm not sure what you mean, can you elaborate? Why illusion of choice? Put 10 points into a line and take the best trait from the line which synergizes with your playstyle. That was no illusion... I tried many builds and in each one I could take different traits from a 10-point line. I don't see how it would be a good idea to be forced to 30-30-10 builds. Hmm

[DrakeWurrum]

I just hope they don't kill this one: http://www.gw2builds.org/view/364078/signet_attunement

[Fencers]

It's more like specialization, which is logical in building to a given end. If you want to be really awesome at using a 2h hammer, well there were certain traits you were gonna get anyways and not dick around with 10/15*4.

[Maarius]

Can someone explain the tiered system to me? I don't understand what it means exactly.

tier 1: you put 10 points into a line: you have access to 6 traits


tier 2: you put 20 points into a line: you have access to 6+4=10 traits


tier 3: you put 30 points into a line: you have access to 6+4+2=12 traits


in the old system you had access to all 12 traits in the 10-point slot, so you could create very balanced builds. You didn't need filler-traits to get to the traits you really wanted. (Wah, I don't want to write in red, no idea how I can change colors xD)

---------- Post added 2012-06-02 at 01:20 AM ----------

It's more like specialization, which is logical in building to a given end. If you want to be really awesome at using a 2h hammer, well there were certain traits you were gonna get anyways and not dick around with 10/15*4.

but everyone who is using a 2h hammer want's to be awesome with it. The point is: until now you could be awsome with it with 10 points in the line + you could be awsome in other things you do.
Now, you have to put 30 points into a line to get the awsome 2h hammer skill + you have to take 2 traits from the 10-slot & the 20-slot you probably don't want to use... these are filler-traits. They are pointless.

[Malthurius]

snip

Thank you, makes perfect sense now.

I can see how it can be seen as restrictive, but in all honesty, I can see how the old system was flawed as well.

It's been said before, but some traits were just better than others, it makes sense to make better traits exclusive to higher tiers so that players don't go for the exact same traits in earlier tiers.

There is still choice however, if all the traits are still available for higher tiers. I'd be different if it was:

Tier 1 = 6 choices
Tier 2 = 4 choices
Tier 3 = 2 choices

[Maarius]

It's more like specialization, which is logical in building to a given end. If you want to be really awesome at using a 2h hammer, well there were certain traits you were gonna get anyways and not dick around with 10/15*4.

but everyone who is using a 2h hammer want's to be awesome with it. The point is: until now you could be awsome with it with 10 points in the line + you could be awsome in other things too (like other traitlines / synergies).
Now, you have to put 30 points into a line to get the awsome 2h hammer skill + you have to take 2 traits from the 10-slot & the 20-slot you probably don't want to use... these are filler-traits. They are pointless.

[Arrowstormen]

but everyone who is using a 2h hammer want's to be awesome with it. The point is: until now you could be awsome with it with 10 points in the line + you could be awsome in other things you do.
Now, you have to put 30 points into a line to get the awsome 2h hammer skill + you have to take 2 traits from the 10-slot & the 20-slot you probably don't want to use... these are filler-traits. They are pointless.

I GUESS it's to reward people who put a lot of points into something with "special traits". Maybe they didn't want people to just go 10 points up in a tree just for the one awesome trait?

[Fencers]

but everyone who is using a 2h hammer want's to be awesome with it. The point is: until now you could be awsome with it with 10 points in the line + you could be awsome in other things you do.
Now, you have to put 30 points into a line to get the awsome 2h hammer skill + you have to take 2 traits from the 10-slot & the 20-slot you probably don't want to use... these are filler-traits. They are pointless.

But you had to take 20 or 30 in a line anyway depending on kit. Only a few classes could get away with .5 lines or 10/10 [e.g. Thieves, Eles] and so on.

I was 20 deep in Defense as a Warrior to use a 2h Hammer optimally and had to take the passive bonuses + minor that were not conducive to my intent anyway [i.e. filler traits]. Can't forget that 10 in Arms for Deep Strike...

If the new system works as we are assuming* here, it allows that same line to be back loaded a bit so my 20 deep in Defense isn't a squandering of the 25 or 20 I could have taken in Discipline or Strength. Actually making Defense and it's [hopefully] realted 2h skills desirable from 5-> 30.

Tough + Compassion + Con + Vit in 2h hammer with LB OH? /vomit

*Can't be sure till I am in-game.