I don't think Blizzard gets it

[Nosonia]

Blizzard is at a point where they don't know how to get content out fast enough to keep people happy...

What was so endless about MMOs?
What made content last forever?
What made leveling alts just as endless?

1 simple thing: THE GRIND

Hate it all you want.. the Grind is what kept people playing the game. When you had 2 max level characters, and didn't have enough time to really get both of them to be in end game gear...

> Attunements were long and tedious... but kept us playing. We had to do them, and we simply accepted that fact, and did them.
> Reputations took months to grind out, which kept people playing.
> Alts had to go through the same leveling process as mains... perhaps the mains could fund the alts with some BiS gear to make it a bit quicker, but there was no experience gain boosts.
> Nerfs only happened when content was unplayable... regardless of how many people beat it. Some boss encounters were so brutal they wrecked guilds, only dedicated players progressed.
> There was no valor gear to skip tiers... Blizzard is worried that people aren't experiencing their content? We'll, if by the time someone is level capped, the 2nd tier of raiding has been released, they will never get to experience the first tier properly... it'll be both nerfed to the ground, and extremely easy since we out gear it.

The grind is what made the content last for what like forever. With the exception of a main tank or a main healer, players were never finished collecting gear.. there was always more gear that was needed. Now by week 4 people are disenchanting gear like no tomorrow.

As much as people say they "hated the grind" ... it's what kept us playing... we wanted to log on, because there was more to achieve... ALWAYS...

It is only since WOTLK that it became possible to be completely decked out in a raids gear. Very few players would actually achieve BiS in all spots by the time it was ready to go to the next raid... it required guilds to continue to raid old content while new content was out.

How to fix the "lack of content" in my opinion:

1 - reduce the amount of gear that drops. (1 per boss in 10 man MAX.. maybe even small chance no gear drops... 2-3 pieces in 25 man.)
2 - raid gear should only be available via raids. Since there is no reason to have raid gear unless you raid, it should be only obtainable through raids.
3 - Use LFR as a way for everyone to see the content. Stop nerfing normal/hardcore raids.
4 - Bring back attunements
5 - Remove tabards from reputation grinds. Force us back into the world to grind reputation on faction mobs.

I think these 5 things with the new features they are adding would help out a lot and people would not exhaust content as quickly.

[Pebrocks The Warlock]

So what you are saying is you want Vanilla back. Take off your rose-tinted glasses.

[Alvito]

Sure they dangled the carrot a bit further away then, that doesn't make it better. I am for attunements and some other things but ppl didn't play or enjoy the game because of the grind. Nor would a game survive against others if it was as grind heavy as MMO's were 5 to 10 years ago. Sure some ppl loved them most didn't this is one of the dozens of reasons that the amount of ppl playing durring vanilla was almost half of what were playing in BC and was less then half of the Wrath player base.

[Goatfish]

So what you are saying is you want Vanilla back. Take off your rose-tinted glasses.

Boo-hoo you like something I don't, you clearly must not like it and are just being nostalgic.

Good god... will this piece of shit argument ever die? If you are going to try and refute an argument at least give valid retorts and not just sit there saying "You're wrong because I said so."

[kneeo]

I agree with 2 and 3, the rest I can live without.

And while I agree that "What kept us playing was that there was more to achieve", the way you thin of it isn't really what I have in mind for that.

[Deleted]

A chance for no loot to drop in 10 man , goodluck with that.

[Snarebusta]

You are right. Most people will bash and hate on your post, because they just want it easy. But to make it so content isn't consumed faster than it is developed the grind needs to be longer. It needs to start at leveling though so casuals don't get bored.

[BoysBoysBoys]

It's why I love doing BC content.

So much grinding. ❤

[Daetur]

I want to keep playing and not have to dedicate as much time to "the grind" so that I have more time in my life for other things.

For every long-term player who claims they want "the grind" back, there'll be another who would probably quit if they had to invest significantly more time into Warcraft for the same results they're getting now.

I started playing a few months after launch. I don't miss it. I like that my main character can be raid-optimal without investing hours and hours a day into him, and that I can then focus on other characters, other non-raid things in game like pets, achievements, and exploring, or just messing around with my friends, or can get off of Warcraft and play some League of Legends or spend some time with my boyfriend.

I am a veteran player of 7 years, and I prefer the current, less "grindy" model of Warcraft, especially with the Mists of Pandaria additions to end game content.

I respect your opinions and ideas, and I hope that, if you decide to move on to another game, you find one that better suits what you want. Just because I don't agree with your opinion doesn't mean that I can't respect it.

I just honestly don't think they would gain business or retain more subscribers if they went back to the Classic grind at this point. I'm proof that at least some veteran players would not want that, and that they would lose some business by doing so.

[Crashdummy]

You are the one that doesnt get it Op.

Why did WoW have more success than his competiros?

BECAUSE IT WAS LESS GRUNDY AND LESS PUNISHING.

If people wanted grind, they would had played UO, EQ or any of the rest. Hell, silkroad is just a massive MASSIVE grind.

WoW won the competitions because it was LESS GRINDY and MORE CASUALS FRIENDLY.

Blizzard has the formula to success, but they got convinced by a little vocal minority at the end of Wrath that the game was too casuals friendly, so in Crapaclysm they make it less casuals friendly, hell they even mocked casuals with the "Wow, Dunegeons are hard" blog, and that was the biggest massive subscription lost ever.

They need to get back to its roots, make the game to be the most casuals friendly MMO in existance.

And attunements are the worst idea ever, they brought us the worst thing the WoW community has in all its existance, raiding guilds STEALING people from other raiding guilds. Yes, attunements brought robbery into the game.

Your suggestions would leave wow with 5 millons subs tops.

[Gharld]

While I agree to some point that a grind brings more playtime to the game, that doesnt mean its a good thing. If you have to spend large amounts of time doing boring/repetitive things it becomes a job.

As for reducing the amount of gear to 1 or none in 10, thats just insane. To make a boss not even drop one could even bring the RNG chance that an entire raid clear could yield 0 loot, and that would just flat out make me quit a game.

I do however agree with point 2, removing JP/VP vendors would be nice, or atleast make them only sell LFR lvl gear.

For point 3, I think the nerfs to norm/heroic are fine. The people who cared about being hardcore and the challenge cleared the dungeon by the time the 5% nerf started happening with DS, as well as ICC too if I recall (unless its some sort of "oh all 10/25 of our hardcore raid team took a break at the same time and are now back to raid" situation, but that cant be common...). By the time the nerfs started the hardcores should have been well done by then, and the mid-range (aka not hardcore, nor nublet) raiders were more than likely hitting a brick wall on a certain boss or two (like spine). Personally, as a mid-range raider whos been playing for 6 years, I dont want to spend 3-4 hours on a Tuesday dieing to the same boss the entire time. Honestly I would rather quit (which I did for SWTOR, what a joke that was lol) than do that.

Point 4, ehh I have no issue with but agree also with Blizz's statement where say, if to get into DS you had to clear BoT or BWD, I would dread switching mains or having to waste time (my guild only raids 2 days a week mind you) running old content just to get someone new / an alt up to speed. A cool questline on the otherhand that spans alot of quests (maybe something like the rogue legendary questline or the Thrall elemental thingy) would be really cool and get somebody involved in the lore some more.

As for 5, yes and no. I agree throwing a tabard on and grinding dungeons getting you love does feel cheap, but at the same time killing several hundred mobs for a low drop-rate item to turn in for minimal rep reward is kinda lame. Somewhere in the middle would work fine however. I for one loved the Firelands dailys and that whole questchain, quite possibly my favorite daily cluster in the game.

[Phookah]

The game will never be like it was before. NEVER. Just deal already.

[Daetur]

As an aside, they are doing #2 - (raid gear should only be available via raids. Since there is no reason to have raid gear unless you raid, it should be only obtainable through raids) in Mists. Valor points, as the plan currently stands, will not be spend on purchasing gear. It will be used to augment your current gear and inflate its ilvl, making it somewhat stronger, while not enhancing it to the point where it surpasses the next "tier" of gear-- e.g. you cannot raise heroic dungeon gear past the ilvl of regular raid gear.

[Tziva]

I'm all for making content last longer, but I don't think intentionally aiming to make it more grindy and punishing is the right way to go about this.

[Belloc]

Yet another post with nothing but bad ideas. I'm glad Blizzard is smarter than most of the player base.

[xanzul]

Blizzard is at a point where they don't know how to get content out fast enough to keep people happy...

What was so endless about MMOs?
What made content last forever?
What made leveling alts just as endless?

1 simple thing: THE GRIND

Hate it all you want.. the Grind is what kept people playing the game. When you had 2 max level characters, and didn't have enough time to really get both of them to be in end game gear...

> Attunements were long and tedious... but kept us playing. We had to do them, and we simply accepted that fact, and did them.
> Reputations took months to grind out, which kept people playing.
> Alts had to go through the same leveling process as mains... perhaps the mains could fund the alts with some BiS gear to make it a bit quicker, but there was no experience gain boosts.
> Nerfs only happened when content was unplayable... regardless of how many people beat it. Some boss encounters were so brutal they wrecked guilds, only dedicated players progressed.
> There was no valor gear to skip tiers... Blizzard is worried that people aren't experiencing their content? We'll, if by the time someone is level capped, the 2nd tier of raiding has been released, they will never get to experience the first tier properly... it'll be both nerfed to the ground, and extremely easy since we out gear it.

The grind is what made the content last for what like forever. With the exception of a main tank or a main healer, players were never finished collecting gear.. there was always more gear that was needed. Now by week 4 people are disenchanting gear like no tomorrow.

As much as people say they "hated the grind" ... it's what kept us playing... we wanted to log on, because there was more to achieve... ALWAYS...

It is only since WOTLK that it became possible to be completely decked out in a raids gear. Very few players would actually achieve BiS in all spots by the time it was ready to go to the next raid... it required guilds to continue to raid old content while new content was out.

How to fix the "lack of content" in my opinion:

1 - reduce the amount of gear that drops. (1 per boss in 10 man MAX.. maybe even small chance no gear drops... 2-3 pieces in 25 man.)
2 - raid gear should only be available via raids. Since there is no reason to have raid gear unless you raid, it should be only obtainable through raids.
3 - Use LFR as a way for everyone to see the content. Stop nerfing normal/hardcore raids.
4 - Bring back attunements
5 - Remove tabards from reputation grinds. Force us back into the world to grind reputation on faction mobs.

I think these 5 things with the new features they are adding would help out a lot and people would not exhaust content as quickly.

No the only people who don't "get it" are players like you who can't stop living in the past and their rose colored glasses blind them to the improvements the game has gotten over the years.

[Nosonia]

Most of the arguments in this thread are for casual play... and listen, I understand how some of you feel when it comes to that.

World of Warcraft did not win the internetz because it was more casual friendly then other MMOs... hwoever, it was one of the first MMOs where you could level via questing instead of just grinding. WoW became so big because of how big Warcraft was itself.. not because it was easy.

This is not about going to vanilla.. this is about still having something to do months before the next xpac comes out. People were still heavily raiding almost EVERY raid in Vanilla (from MC to Naxx40)... and the same in BC. However, WOTLK and DS have been about 1 thing, the final raid.

How many of you still have things to do in WoW? Very few.... if it's something, you are finishing off some extra achievements for fun, or you're doing PVP. But as far as raiding and PVE content goes, there is nothing to do except level alts or gear up alts... Even casual players are decked out in full HC gear...

I am not saying the game is broken, or this is why I am quitting.. I am saying, in my opinion, this is the only way to lengthen the time it takes to exhaust all the content.

As far as a possible 0 pieces of gear dropping.. we'd be talking a very small chance... but with the exception of tons of people quitting cause "Cata was too hard", there has never been a feature (regardless of how many people threatened to quit) that was ever released that caused "the game to die"...

We got LFD/LFR and the game survived.
We got space aliens and the game survived.
(read the other 10000 posts on features that were going to end wow and didnt)...

If they remove badge gear all together, then there is no need for raid bosses to drop less then 1 piece of loot... but fact is, 20-30% of your raid getting a piece of gear each boss is way too much. A good number is about 7-10%, as it was in vanilla. It keeps you motivated to raid..

Hands up if you enjoy doing a raid on a character that has 0% chance to get any loot (cause there are 0 upgrades available) week after week? Let's see if there is 1 person who likes raiding DS on their fully decked out toon week after week??

We raid to see the content... once we've seen the content, we raid to get gear. Once we get gear, we move on.... We need to extend the period of time it takes to see the content and get fully geared in it. Also extending the time it takes to even get to raids to begin with should be extended.

Ask the majority of top end guilds.. they will tell you, that most boss fights are not about gear, but about skill.. and most of the time you can progress very easily in very outdated gear... that needs to change.. People should need to be fully decked out in previous tier gear for entry level bosses... and must have about 40-50% of current content gear to get the middle/end.. with about 80-90% requirements for the final boss.

People look back and say "it sucked"... because now it is much easier...

If I told you, run 100km and I'll give you $1000.00.. or run 5km and I'll still give you 1000$... we'll, you're going to run 5km... but if all of a sudden the only option became 100km, that doesn't mean you wouldn't do it... granted some wont... but the bulk will, because in the end, people enjoy playing the game, and want to play the game...

---------- Post added 2012-07-09 at 10:09 PM ----------

No the only people who don't "get it" are players like you who can't stop living in the past and their rose colored glasses blind them to the improvements the game has gotten over the years.

I agree there have been many improvements. I'm not saying I want vanilla back.. I'm not saying remove LFR or LFD... I'm saying, the game needs to last longer then it currently does... how can you not agree that the game is too quick to fully clear right now? Maybe you don't agree with how I think they should fix it.. but you can't say the game doesn't need to be extended, SOMEHOW.

[dokilar]

the real problem is that blizzard has no sense of balance. they either swing way to the left or way to the right.

i for one dont believe that the whole overall grind theory is the solution, just as i dont believe that facerolling dungeons in 20-25 mins is the solution. there should be a happy medium and unfortunately blizzard hasnt found it yet with WoW.

they may be getting there, we'll see

[vian]

I agree. An MMO w/o a Grind makes it pretty much pointless, unless there's an endless stream of über RP elements.

[ShimmerSwirl]

Agreed. In Wotlk Blizzard started designing the game like they were fans instead of the developer. "Geez I hate having to fly to the summon stone! I wish we could just click a button and teleport there!" That mindset of making 'quality of life changes' transcends throughout the entire game and removes the essence of what an MMO is, as the OP stated: a grind.