1. #25161
    Quote Originally Posted by dippinsawse View Post
    What you are saying is actually another problem with the episode. Why wasn't the storm already blowing over winterfell before they spotted the army? They could have used it to freeze, disorient, and cover their armies like they always have. The defenders would have no way of knowing where and at which point the army actually attacks and they would be cold and tired by the time it actually happens. It makes no sense.
    I'm not claiming the episode is perfect. I'm just pushing back against certain narratives others have put forth. Are the storms portrayed correctly? Not quite. Are they still necessary? Yes. That latter trumps the former. Holding the storm back to give the defenders a false of sense of security is reasonable but only sort of.

    I think the only thing that is genuinely correct is that the Night King had to face Brann directly and its probably the only point where he might've been vulnerable. Everything else just looks cool and dramatic. And all previous actions are just there to bring us to that certain point. Brann could probably see that. Admittedly it might've just made more sense for everyone else flee and leave Brann in the Godswood with Arya hiding under his chair.

  2. #25162
    The Lightbringer Thekri's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivanstone View Post
    I'm not claiming the episode is perfect. I'm just pushing back against certain narratives others have put forth. Are the storms portrayed correctly? Not quite. Are they still necessary? Yes. That latter trumps the former. Holding the storm back to give the defenders a false of sense of security is reasonable but only sort of.

    I think the only thing that is genuinely correct is that the Night King had to face Brann directly and its probably the only point where he might've been vulnerable. Everything else just looks cool and dramatic. And all previous actions are just there to bring us to that certain point. Brann could probably see that. Admittedly it might've just made more sense for everyone else flee and leave Brann in the Godswood with Arya hiding under his chair.
    And since touching white walkers with dragonglass apparently makes them go poof, maybe just scatter all the dragonglass as pointy rocks around winterfell and cover it with snow. Instant death trap that doesn't really hurt anything that isn't undead.

  3. #25163
    So now, here's the problem I see going forward:

    GRRM suggests the ending of ASoIaF will end bittersweetly.

    The writers are supposed to end up in the same place.

    How exactly is that going to happen? Most book readers thought it meant "the right person" would end up on the throne, but the lands would be ravaged by the Long Night, or even that the NK destroys them all just as they conclude their game of thrones.

    But now we have a straight political fight, between a comically evil side, which has to be defeated for there to be any "sweet" to a "bittersweet" ending. The bad guys are literally a mad queen, a maester who tortures and creates undead abominations, his undead abomination, and Euron, a kinslayer and sorcerer (though that sorcery bit isn't really played up in the shows) who is utterly bereft of moral value.

    So then the "bitter" has to come from the winning side. I guess Dany going mad and Jon killing her after all is said and done is the answer to that? That would be a shit way to end it, because such an event would be RIGHT in line with the TPWWP prophecy, except it isn't needed any more because Winter ain't comin' no more, baby! What happens to her dragons then? Does Jon now own two dragons?


    Or maybe the "bitter" comes from Bran, who realizes we can't just be Summer Children all the rest of our days, and takes up the mantle of Night's King.

    Or maybe Sansa and Tyrion being unable to be together, for........reasons?


    Oh, btw, are we now to assume Sansa and Bran are completely safe from here on out? There's 0 reason for them to make the march South, and there must always be a Stark in Winterfell. Is the North storyline just done now?

  4. #25164
    Quote Originally Posted by Kathranis View Post
    I wouldn't say absolute trash, but it's a damn sight short of the books. After season four the writing definitely devolved into basic mainstream audience pandering, complete with catchphrases. I'm not sure if that's a cause of the increasing mainstream popularity of the show or a response to it, but either way it worked and the normies absolutely eat it up.

    That being said, I'll never not praise the production design, direction, and music. For all its flaws, it's a beautiful show to look at.
    Of course, those aspects are still pretty good, but writing is in my opinion, the most important part, that's what made the first 4 or 5 seasons so good. But obviously they had the books, so it wasn't hard to accomplish good writing.

    Now there's no books, there's only some dudes that are simply not good at writing, trying to do their own thing, thinking they are doing a good job. And it's working for them, because they go with the fan service approach that the masses love. Just look at this topic, so many basic people think it's fine, even saying it's amazing stuff, calling it "best got episode ever". God, how dense do you have to be to say that?

  5. #25165
    Bloodsail Admiral Ermelloth's Avatar
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    BTW - Why would they need the night watch after this? The dead are defeated.
    People are still dying and going to die and Night King may yet return or the new one is going to emerge, sooner or later.
    Also, I don't think ALL the white walkers in existence were in that army. Some might have stayed beyond the wall in their graves as a reserve or just remained inactive.

    So, it's only logical that someone is gonna be still needed to stand in the border between Life and Death and guard the living.

    Just remember "our" Lich King. There must always be a Lich King.
    Last edited by Ermelloth; 2019-04-30 at 08:17 PM.

  6. #25166
    Ive always thought that the bittersweet ending would be Dany dying in childbirth (like Jon’s, Dany’s, and Tyrion’s mothers all did) leaving Jon to raise their child alone.

  7. #25167
    Quote Originally Posted by eschatological View Post
    So now, here's the problem I see going forward:

    GRRM suggests the ending of ASoIaF will end bittersweetly.

    The writers are supposed to end up in the same place.

    How exactly is that going to happen? Most book readers thought it meant "the right person" would end up on the throne, but the lands would be ravaged by the Long Night, or even that the NK destroys them all just as they conclude their game of thrones.

    But now we have a straight political fight, between a comically evil side, which has to be defeated for there to be any "sweet" to a "bittersweet" ending. The bad guys are literally a mad queen, a maester who tortures and creates undead abominations, his undead abomination, and Euron, a kinslayer and sorcerer (though that sorcery bit isn't really played up in the shows) who is utterly bereft of moral value.

    So then the "bitter" has to come from the winning side. I guess Dany going mad and Jon killing her after all is said and done is the answer to that? That would be a shit way to end it, because such an event would be RIGHT in line with the TPWWP prophecy, except it isn't needed any more because Winter ain't comin' no more, baby! What happens to her dragons then? Does Jon now own two dragons?


    Or maybe the "bitter" comes from Bran, who realizes we can't just be Summer Children all the rest of our days, and takes up the mantle of Night's King.

    Or maybe Sansa and Tyrion being unable to be together, for........reasons?


    Oh, btw, are we now to assume Sansa and Bran are completely safe from here on out? There's 0 reason for them to make the march South, and there must always be a Stark in Winterfell. Is the North storyline just done now?
    I saw someone mention that the writers talked about having Jon kill the NK but they ended up going with something different.
    If that is the case then the writers aren't following GRRM, if he gave them anything to go on in the first place, and anything can happen in regards to the ending.
    But considering the writing in the last episodes/seasons its going to be a fairytale ending.
    It ignores such insignificant forces as time, entropy, and death

  8. #25168
    Bloodsail Admiral Ermelloth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ohiostate124 View Post
    Ive always thought that the bittersweet ending would be Dany dying in childbirth (like Jon’s, Dany’s, and Tyrion’s mothers all did) leaving Jon to raise their child alone.
    It was implied in early seasons that after the sacrifice Dany made to bring Drogo back to life she won't be able to give birth to any more children

  9. #25169
    Quote Originally Posted by Ermelloth View Post
    People are still dying and going to die and Night King may yet return or the new one is going to emerge, sooner or later.
    Also, I don't think ALL the white walkers in existence were in that army. Some might have stayed beyond the wall in their graves as a reserve or just remained inactive.

    So, it's only logical that someone is gonna be still needed to stand in the border between Life and Death and guard the living.

    Just remember "our" Lich King. There must always be a Lich King.
    Main issue with that idea though, is the wall is gone. The wall wasn't just a physical wall either, it was enhanced with some kind of voodoo hoodoo to prevent the Night King from crossing.

    Obviously the Nights Watch didn't know this, but their whole existence was to stand at the wall and keep watch/fight what is coming, and in that regard, they did actually fail totally and utterly. The dead made it through to the lands of the living and nearly wiped everything out (if it wasn't for those blasted kids!).

    Absolutely no need for a "Nights Watch" now, and the story seems ot tie with that, with Dolorous Edd dying and most of them killed as well.


    Most likely scenario? Ser Jon Super Snow will let Dany be Queen blah blah, and he will be Captain Westeros, and set up a new group that does basically the same job as the NW, but has a new name, and swankier armour and stuff (and has more castles etc in the territory as the wall cannot really be fixed.


    Which of course, ties it in with the idea that "Winter is Coming", as it is always around the corner.





    All this works on the principle that the Children of the Forest aren't all wiped out to shit and can actually make another Night King, which I think isn't the case anymore, so the NW is utterly redundant in that case also.

  10. #25170
    Quote Originally Posted by Ermelloth View Post
    It was implied in early seasons that after the sacrifice Dany made to bring Drogo back to life she won't be able to give birth to any more children
    I'm pretty sure a witch on a TV show saying you can't have children actually makes you more fertile.
    Last edited by Jayma; 2019-04-30 at 08:33 PM.

  11. #25171
    The Lightbringer Thekri's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eschatological View Post
    So now, here's the problem I see going forward:

    GRRM suggests the ending of ASoIaF will end bittersweetly.

    The writers are supposed to end up in the same place.

    How exactly is that going to happen? Most book readers thought it meant "the right person" would end up on the throne, but the lands would be ravaged by the Long Night, or even that the NK destroys them all just as they conclude their game of thrones.

    But now we have a straight political fight, between a comically evil side, which has to be defeated for there to be any "sweet" to a "bittersweet" ending. The bad guys are literally a mad queen, a maester who tortures and creates undead abominations, his undead abomination, and Euron, a kinslayer and sorcerer (though that sorcery bit isn't really played up in the shows) who is utterly bereft of moral value.

    So then the "bitter" has to come from the winning side. I guess Dany going mad and Jon killing her after all is said and done is the answer to that? That would be a shit way to end it, because such an event would be RIGHT in line with the TPWWP prophecy, except it isn't needed any more because Winter ain't comin' no more, baby! What happens to her dragons then? Does Jon now own two dragons?


    Or maybe the "bitter" comes from Bran, who realizes we can't just be Summer Children all the rest of our days, and takes up the mantle of Night's King.

    Or maybe Sansa and Tyrion being unable to be together, for........reasons?


    Oh, btw, are we now to assume Sansa and Bran are completely safe from here on out? There's 0 reason for them to make the march South, and there must always be a Stark in Winterfell. Is the North storyline just done now?
    What I have assumed was going to happen is an "End of Magic" storyline. Dragons die, Brann dies, Night King/WWs die, Melisandre and all the Red Priests die or lose powers, and Westeros becomes essentially a low fantasy setting like it was in the beginning of the show, except permanently this time. Martin has hinted that the very nature of the north and the irregular winters is intrinsically tied to the white walkers as well, so that might also end.

    However after last episode I don't think that will happen any more. I don't see Brann being in any more danger, and he would kind of have to die for this to work. More importantly, I don't think HBO wants to lose all that for any spin-offs that they want to set after the end of this series. Martin wouldn't have had a problem concluding his series with that when he started, but he didn't have millions of dollars invested yet.

    I am honestly expecting a Happily Ever After ending, or something disturbingly like it. But it likely came down to a business decision, or which actors/actresses they could option for later.

  12. #25172
    Legendary! Kathranis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jakeic View Post
    Wouldn't she be paying them regardless? Maybe it costs more to deploy them, but certainly they're being paid to sit around King's Landing.
    Yes, either way, that's my point. For Cersei it's important to end the war while she can still afford to pay the Golden Company. Which is why it would make more sense for Jon and Dany to wait her out.

    In real medieval warfare there isn't really an extreme urgency. Sieges can stretch on for months if not years. Especially now that the army of the dead is defeated. Realistically, it should have bought Jon and Dany as much time as they need to regroup, to spread their influence over the realm, forge new Alliances, etc.

    But that's not how the show operates. There's three episodes left, and we need a decisive final battle RIGHT NOW so the arcs for a handful of recognizable characters can come full circle before it's over. And that's essentially what the "war" will boil down to, a handful of character moments that will decide everything, be those conversations or fights.

    At this point the best I can hope for is that they actually make a show of Jon and Dany riding south and rallying the banners as they go. We need some closure on House Reed (Meera went MIA and Howland is probably the only living man who can vouch for R+L=J) and Edmure likewise hasn't been seen since... I don't remember when.

    I can't think of any other houses that would be addressed by the show, especially since for the show, killing the lord of a house basically means the house has ended and is no longer relevant to the story, apart from perhaps a few random banners in background of scenes. Those who are still alive are generally do minor that they might as well be extras.

    Maybe they'll revisit the Martells? But honestly after the way the show handled everything to do with Ellaria and the Sand Snakes I'd rather just forget about it... Nobody living from the other Houses leaps to mind as having any dangling plot threads.. Maybe House Tarly? But I feel like that'd be pretty out of the way...

  13. #25173
    Quote Originally Posted by eschatological View Post
    So now, here's the problem I see going forward:

    GRRM suggests the ending of ASoIaF will end bittersweetly.

    The writers are supposed to end up in the same place.

    How exactly is that going to happen? Most book readers thought it meant "the right person" would end up on the throne, but the lands would be ravaged by the Long Night, or even that the NK destroys them all just as they conclude their game of thrones.

    But now we have a straight political fight, between a comically evil side, which has to be defeated for there to be any "sweet" to a "bittersweet" ending. The bad guys are literally a mad queen, a maester who tortures and creates undead abominations, his undead abomination, and Euron, a kinslayer and sorcerer (though that sorcery bit isn't really played up in the shows) who is utterly bereft of moral value.

    So then the "bitter" has to come from the winning side. I guess Dany going mad and Jon killing her after all is said and done is the answer to that? That would be a shit way to end it, because such an event would be RIGHT in line with the TPWWP prophecy, except it isn't needed any more because Winter ain't comin' no more, baby! What happens to her dragons then? Does Jon now own two dragons?


    Or maybe the "bitter" comes from Bran, who realizes we can't just be Summer Children all the rest of our days, and takes up the mantle of Night's King.

    Or maybe Sansa and Tyrion being unable to be together, for........reasons?


    Oh, btw, are we now to assume Sansa and Bran are completely safe from here on out? There's 0 reason for them to make the march South, and there must always be a Stark in Winterfell. Is the North storyline just done now?
    I doubt Sansa marches for Kings Landing. She will stay at Winterfell. Jon & Arya will go.
    Bran? does not matter at this point. We havent gotten any clear answers what the deal is between him and the NK by now, doubt we will. He will probably just go back to his tree. He has said again and again he aint part of the human world anymore and his threat was the NK, and he is dead. Why should be bother with cercei? Its not really his business anymore.

  14. #25174
    Legendary! Kathranis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ermelloth View Post
    People are still dying and going to die and Night King may yet return or the new one is going to emerge, sooner or later.
    Also, I don't think ALL the white walkers in existence were in that army. Some might have stayed beyond the wall in their graves as a reserve or just remained inactive.

    So, it's only logical that someone is gonna be still needed to stand in the border between Life and Death and guard the living.

    Just remember "our" Lich King. There must always be a Lich King.
    According to the BTS feature, the Night King was the first White Walker, and that flashback to the Children of the Forest creating him was apparently meant to be at the very same heart tree that Winterfell was built around.

    There's absolutely no reason to think that there are others "sleeping in graves," especially since there's never been any indication that they sleep in graves at all. They aren't undead, rather immortal. And if the Night King was the first, all the rest are gone now, unless someone figures out how to create more.

  15. #25175
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivanstone View Post
    I'm not claiming the episode is perfect. I'm just pushing back against certain narratives others have put forth. Are the storms portrayed correctly? Not quite. Are they still necessary? Yes. That latter trumps the former. Holding the storm back to give the defenders a false of sense of security is reasonable but only sort of.

    I think the only thing that is genuinely correct is that the Night King had to face Brann directly and its probably the only point where he might've been vulnerable. Everything else just looks cool and dramatic. And all previous actions are just there to bring us to that certain point. Brann could probably see that. Admittedly it might've just made more sense for everyone else flee and leave Brann in the Godswood with Arya hiding under his chair.
    I didn't mean to disagree with your point overall. I think there are some nitpickers who haven't thought everything through and just want to seem smart for picking out all of the plot holes and inconsistencies. But yeah there is a lot wrong with it and I would say most people are legitimately wanting to enjoy the show but are turned off by the decline in writing quality. I think most of them still even enjoyed the episode, I did as well. But I can't lie and say that I wasn't bored and confused by how idiotic and nonsensical the episode was.

    What made game of thrones so satisfying for a lot of people was not the spectacle but that it rewarded you for paying attention and thinking about what was happening. There have always been a lot of complex moving parts that still all came together and made sense and it felt good to be invested and try to figure out what was really happening and why. Now it has become so simple and despite that doesn't make sense either a lot of the time. If you try to pay attention and think about what is happening it's like a slap in the face how bad the writing is in episodes like this last one. Game of thrones didn't become popular as a piece of mindless entertainment but in a lot of ways that is what it has become. You are just supposed to turn your brain off and cheer at the one liners and nonsensical but "cool" things that happened. Naturally fans of the show will be annoyed with that.

  16. #25176
    Quote Originally Posted by Ermelloth View Post
    It was implied in early seasons that after the sacrifice Dany made to bring Drogo back to life she won't be able to give birth to any more children
    Yes and as Jon said, who told you that? They might not be the most reliable source of information. I didn’t think anyone actually believed that Dany would never get pregnant again.

  17. #25177
    The Lightbringer Thekri's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kathranis View Post
    At this point the best I can hope for is that they actually make a show of Jon and Dany riding south and rallying the banners as they go. We need some closure on House Reed (Meera went MIA and Howland is probably the only living man who can vouch for R+L=J) and Edmure likewise hasn't been seen since... I don't remember when.

    I can't think of any other houses that would be addressed by the show, especially since for the show, killing the lord of a house basically means the house has ended and is no longer relevant to the story, apart from perhaps a few random banners in background of scenes. Those who are still alive are generally do minor that they might as well be extras.

    Maybe they'll revisit the Martells? But honestly after the way the show handled everything to do with Ellaria and the Sand Snakes I'd rather just forget about it... Nobody living from the other Houses leaps to mind as having any dangling plot threads.. Maybe House Tarly? But I feel like that'd be pretty out of the way...
    The thing about the houses is something that bothered me. They haven't been replacing any of the political systems that die off. As such there seems to be a massive power vacuum in most of Westeros, or else we just haven't been told about the changes, so we don't really know who is in charge of anything.

    Lets see:
    The North: Yep, Jesus Snow is clearly in charge here. Because reasons. Also everyone here is dead now.

    The Riverlands: No idea. Edmure probably, but the Lannisters left the Freys in charge and Edmure was just a puppet to get the castle back. Now the Freys are dead, so maybe he took over. But that doesn't seem much like Edmure to do something on his own initiative. Also everyone here is dead now.

    The Vale: Ok, so obviously the kid legally, but who is actually in charge is less clear. Littlefinger is dead. Lord Royce marched off to the north without him, and then just sort of disappeared. He was there in episode 2, but I didn't see him this episode. Also the entire subplot where Tyrion armed all the Hill People to take the vale just sort of disappeared too. So who knows.

    The Kingdom of Rock (The West, the Lannister place): This one is really confusing. The Unsullied took Casterly Rock, but we don't know anything after that. We next see the Unsullied at Kings Landing, implying they probably marched there. We have no idea who holds the title of Lord of Casterly Rock, or the Warden of the West. We also don't know if there is an unsullied garrison there (Probably?). Definitely seems to be a power vaccum.

    The Reach: So the Tyrell family ended when Cersei decided to have a BBQ at the church. So Ollena who was Tyrell by marriage apparently got control of it, and died basically immediately. She lasted longer then his replacement though, because Randyll Tarly found another Queen who likes fire too much. Now who knows. Also everyone is dead and everything valuable has been stolen.

    The Stormlands: No idea who has been running this place since the second season. Nobody apparently replaced Renly, and we just never speak of it.

    Dorne: No idea. Seriously, Dornish character in the show is dead. There is not a single living dornishman in the entire show, and I would lay money we never hear them mentioned again.

    Not to mention countless smaller houses that have disappeared. Dany may not have to break the wheel, there isn't much of a wheel left. If the great houses of Westeros formed the structure of government for thousands of years, they are going to need to start promoting commoners quick. If Edmure does rule the riverlands now, then that is the only one of the seven kingdoms ruled by legitimate member of the family that started the show ruling it.

  18. #25178
    Finally, a girl is a WoW rogue.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Okacz View Post
    You mentioned Red Wedding? Well, with this writing it would probably not start with "pregnant belly stabbing" but with Lord Frey ordering his men to hold everyone at sword point. Edmure would die somehow because someone has to but who cares about Edmure. And at the end of the episode Arya would arrive with Sandor, jump at Lord Frey, cut his throat and save everyone, because killing him also destroys all the Frey Walkers.
    Heh, this is a thing of beauty.

  19. #25179
    Quote Originally Posted by Nirn View Post
    Finally, a girl is a WoW rogue.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Arya:
    Stealth Activated. Sprint Past Zombies. MfD on NK for Max CPs
    Shadowstep next to NK. Boss has TrueSight. Aggrod.
    Gets CC'd
    Use Human Racial
    Pop CDs / On Use Trinkets
    Evis

    GG Night King
    Last edited by dvaz; 2019-04-30 at 10:52 PM.

  20. #25180
    Legendary! Kathranis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thekri View Post
    Not to mention countless smaller houses that have disappeared. Dany may not have to break the wheel, there isn't much of a wheel left. If the great houses of Westeros formed the structure of government for thousands of years, they are going to need to start promoting commoners quick. If Edmure does rule the riverlands now, then that is the only one of the seven kingdoms ruled by legitimate member of the family that started the show ruling it.
    Yep, that's about how I feel about it, too.

    It's something I was talking to my friends about last night, actually, and we were discussing what we thought would actually play out similarly in the books. Our thinking is that all of the Doran / Sand Snakes / Young Griff plotlines essentially exist to facilitate Dany securing a foothold and alliances across Westeros. When the time comes, Young Griff will be outed as a fake and his holdings will be passed over to Dany. Doran will have likely positioned the Sand Snakes such that they can help ensure the transition of power by influencing various houses (either by assassination, temptation, blackmail, etc.).

    Otherwise, I think a lot of the plot involving the early stages of the war will probably play out somewhat the same, albeit with more depth and a hell of a lot more political players, as there are so many siblings and children who could assume control for their House when the leaders do die. No way all of the Tyrells get taken out in one surprise bombing, for example.

    And of course in the Winds of Winter preview chapters we also have Euron doing a ton of absolutely brilliant political and military maneuvering in the Shield Islands and the Reach, basically setting up a bunch of houses to falter and implode. And then it's of course my own personal thinking that Euron is going to be the book version of the Night King, more or less -- using Dragonbinder to fulfill the prophecy of the Horn of Winter by binding Viserion to his will and bringing down the Wall to unleash the undead on Westeros. And likewise I think the green dreams he's mentioned in passing will establish him as Bran's rival and a former pupil of Bloodraven who abandoned his teachings in pursuit of personal power, with his "Crow's Eye" possibly being quite literal.
    Last edited by Kathranis; 2019-04-30 at 09:42 PM.

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