[TV/Books] Game of Thrones ***SPOILER Discussion***

[Prokne]

Cersei showed visible relief when the bells rang. She didn't order it but she certainly did surrender.

Also all the Lannisters surrendered in front of Greyworm and Jon who were essentially the highest ranking people on the ground who knew what the bells meant. Greyworm ignored it and attacked anyways. The other soldiers didn't know but Greyworm did and he incited the massacre along with Dany.

We aren't saying that Cersei and her men didn't know what it meant. We are saying that they shouldn't have known what it meant because it was not what bells meant prior to that battle. And they had no way of being relayed that information since Jaime didn't tell anyone.

Grey Wurm re-initiated the battle after Dany began burning the civilians. I'm not sure if he knew it was going to happen or not, but he didn't act until she did. He was going to do whatever she did.

[IIamaKing]

Show really needed at LEAST 10 more episodes. Think about Dany and her madness for a second. We were told in S1 that the journey from WF to KL is like months. Neds trip was like half a season. Now that Trip was made by Danny in 15 minutes of 1 episode. It still took her some weeks to get from Dragonstone to KL, weeks distraught at he loss of her closest friend and distanced from her advisors. Then Missy Dies and we are still WEEKS away from Jon showing up, weeks spent in isolation getting thinner(mentally) and more distanced. Her madness was brewing for a month or more since she left WF. But for us, the viewer, it was 10 minutes ago. DnD not taking the time really ruins the show by glossing over MONTHS at a time. Largely because I believe they think dialogue scenes are boring and they are not great at writing good dialogue scenes. So wash that shit out and move the pieces into place for the next "Oh Shit" moment.

[MikeBogina]

They were caught up in the fantasy of Dany being a hero princess who would right all the wrongs in the world and get with the hard working handsome hero, whilst forgetting how self-centered and barbaric she was in Essos and how morally steadfast Jon is.

I don't think anyone is upset that she did it, more like the lead up to it doesn't match it.

If she had nothing left and just burned the city down in a mad rage, sure, but they literally captured the city and she said "fuck it, im gonna kill innocents" and proceeded to kill women and children, while taking her merry time to the Red Keep.

In a single episode, she surpassed the Boltons, Lannisters and Night King in kill count and became the biggest baddie for the surprise and shock value of it all. Even if there was some signs previously, there was no proper build up to this and it basically came down to her nephew not wanting to
A. Incest with nephew
or
B. Burn them all!

[Prokne]

It would make sense if it were done with the context of breaking the wheel. Straight up burning down her own holding makes no sense.

Historically, breaking the wheel, "fuedalism," happened through revolutions that either stripped nobles of power or killed them. So killing all of the other nobles and not keeping her own holdings would definitely break the wheel at least until some common people became warlords and feudal kings again.

I don't think this is what she means. I think she means that she will be dictator and force everyone to be good to each other and make things fair. Whatever she thinks is good or fair.

[jakeic]

Historically, breaking the wheel, "fuedalism," happened through revolutions that either stripped nobles of power or killed them.

Right, like she burned down the Red Keep and destroyed the Iron Throne signaling that her rebellion wasn't going to lead to just a different person sitting at the top, but a new way forward.

[Val the Moofia Boss]

[Gorsameth]

Right, like she burned down the Red Keep and destroyed the Iron Throne signaling that her rebellion wasn't going to lead to just a different person sitting at the top, but a new way forward.

Right, because she hasn't travelled around Westeros demanding everyone bends the knee to her right?
right?

[Adamas102]

Right, like she burned down the Red Keep and destroyed the Iron Throne signaling that her rebellion wasn't going to lead to just a different person sitting at the top, but a new way forward.

Yeah taking out the Red Keep could have made sense in that context, but not KL along with 1,000s of the common folk.

[Th3Scourge]

I'm absolutely fine with Dany losing her mind and going nuts, but the delivery was poor and rushed. I can't think of a single moment in her story where she has decided to murder women and children for the no reason.

If Cersei was the target, why not just burn the red keep after the bells (which is what I thought she was going to do) instead of the entire city. Really makes no sense

[MakeMeLaugh]

This is so true. Not that Star Wars is in a good spot right now, so I guess it's gonna be killed a second time.

[Jayma]

She literally locked up her children for killing ONE child.
Don't tell me this was coming and we weren't paying attention.

[jakeic]

Right, because she hasn't travelled around Westeros demanding everyone bends the knee to her right?
right?

You're right, she has done that, but another part of her shtick is that she isn't the same kind of leader who wants everything for herself, she wants to empower the less fortunate, which would be a logical reason for her to burn down the Red Keep and destroy the Iron Throne.

[Tekkommo]

Show really needed at LEAST 10 more episodes. Think about Dany and her madness for a second. We were told in S1 that the journey from WF to KL is like months. Neds trip was like half a season. Now that Trip was made by Danny in 15 minutes of 1 episode. It still took her some weeks to get from Dragonstone to KL, weeks distraught at he loss of her closest friend and distanced from her advisors. Then Missy Dies and we are still WEEKS away from Jon showing up, weeks spent in isolation getting thinner(mentally) and more distanced. Her madness was brewing for a month or more since she left WF. But for us, the viewer, it was 10 minutes ago. DnD not taking the time really ruins the show by glossing over MONTHS at a time. Largely because I believe they think dialogue scenes are boring and they are not great at writing good dialogue scenes. So wash that shit out and move the pieces into place for the next "Oh Shit" moment.

Maybe I’m remembering this wrong, but Ned left WF in episode 2 and arrived in KL in episode 2.

[Prokne]

Show really needed at LEAST 10 more episodes. Think about Dany and her madness for a second. We were told in S1 that the journey from WF to KL is like months. Neds trip was like half a season. Now that Trip was made by Danny in 15 minutes of 1 episode. It still took her some weeks to get from Dragonstone to KL, weeks distraught at he loss of her closest friend and distanced from her advisors. Then Missy Dies and we are still WEEKS away from Jon showing up, weeks spent in isolation getting thinner(mentally) and more distanced. Her madness was brewing for a month or more since she left WF. But for us, the viewer, it was 10 minutes ago. DnD not taking the time really ruins the show by glossing over MONTHS at a time. Largely because I believe they think dialogue scenes are boring and they are not great at writing good dialogue scenes. So wash that shit out and move the pieces into place for the next "Oh Shit" moment.

This is the underpants gnome method of writing. Collect a bunch of events, actions, stuff. Then.. At last they profit by showing a reaction to all the stuff they've gathered up. However, they have not shown how or why those specific events caused those specific reactions. They skip everything in the middle that makes the resolution make sense.

- - - Updated - - -

She literally locked up her children for killing ONE child.
Don't tell me this was coming and we weren't paying attention.

I would say that was a long time ago and people change when they face new circumstances. That child was also one of her subjects and she was trying to get everyone to love her. That is not the situation now after all of the pushback and shade she has received.

I'm not saying it was done well, but I can say that it is possible and can see breadcrumbs leading up to it. IMO those breadcrumbs should have been more frequent and more obvious, but Hollywood is all into twists, which require keeping information from the viewers.

[crakerjack]

I'm absolutely fine with Dany losing her mind and going nuts, but the delivery was poor and rushed. I can't think of a single moment in her story where she has decided to murder women and children for the no reason.

If Cersei was the target, why not just burn the red keep after the bells (which is what I thought she was going to do) instead of the entire city. Really makes no sense

Are you forgetting before the battle at dragonstone, she talks about building a new kingdom w/ future houses etc? In her mind she's already convinced herself that she needs to start new. Her advisers were trying to convince her to take it slow and to gain the peoples trust, but she just wants a clean slate. Killing all the people is a good way to have a clean slate.

[IIamaKing]

Maybe I’m remembering this wrong, but Ned left WF in episode 2 and arrived in KL in episode 2.

I suppose I remembered it wrong. "The Kings Road" is ep2 and in ep3 they are in KL. The point remains. There is a LARGE chunk of time between her fleet and Dragon being killed and her seeing Jon. A chunk of time where she was not eating, isolated and distraught. Her madness fomented in the weeks between ep 4 and ep 5, unfortunately we really didn't see any of it.

[Tekkommo]

I suppose I remembered it wrong. "The Kings Road" is ep2 and in ep3 they are in KL. The point remains. There is a LARGE chunk of time between her fleet and Dragon being killed and her seeing Jon. A chunk of time where she was not eating, isolated and distraught. Her madness fomented in the weeks between ep 4 and ep 5, unfortunately we really didn't see any of it.

I agree it’s being rushed.

Just wanted to point out that Ned got to KL from WF in one episode. Episode 2 is when Lady dies.

[Tabrotar]

quite sure you gonna find extremly similar things happening in the books if they ever come out. So to assume that the scriptwriters are at fault for anything here regarding the story is so ridiculous.

Yeah shure right, the books will be as bad as the show...

Keep telling yourself that if it helps you sleep at night.

But don´t try to come across as someone intelligent, bcs you´re clearly failing.

Flaming isn't allowed. Infracted.

[Teph]

This episode was...Interesting.
Like others have already said, not a single scorpion bolt hit the target (or even moved it seems). Kind of odd when there is one every 2 meters, all over the city.

That made me so angry. Not a single fucking scorpion even tried to align its shots with the moving dragon. Dragon is inside the city -> Every scorpion on the wall still looks 180° opposite to the field. Like wtf. They truely are plot throwers.

[Bodakane]

To tell you the truth, part of me actually wishes that the show would've gone on hiatus until the books caught up with the TV show. Who knows when we'll get another adaptation more faithful to the second half of the saga.

Many of the central actors would have aged out at that point.

You couldn't be more wrong, they did have a choice, and still decided to rush things.

No, no I'm not. Time is an actual thing and it isn't a contract I invented.

HBO and Martin wanted them to make more seasons but D&D wanted to move on to their own projects so they pushed to end it sooners. If they had adapted the fourth and fifth books faithfully there would have been several more seasons of show just there, and the fourth and fifth books grow the cast and locations rather than reducing them, meaning they could have had more to work with after surpassing the books.

Its not just D&D though. Lots of people go into making that show. There are and were budgeting concerns as well.