1. #25321
    Quote Originally Posted by Koriani View Post
    Eh - I really think that's because Martin hasn't gotten far enough in the books to bring the 'physical' part TO Winterfell yet. Not because there's no physical ice zombie threat- because there is (in the books, also). Its not a metaphorical threat, its a real, physical, incoming, /thing/.
    I'm not disagreeing.

    He just isn't "in" the books in the same way he's in the show. And the most likely candidate for him has a completely different backstory than what the show gave us, to the point that the similarities are in name only.

  2. #25322
    The Insane DeltrusDisc's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    Illinois, USA
    Posts
    18,801
    Quote Originally Posted by Xilurm View Post
    I really hope that the dead don't have that weakness where "kill this white walker = kills all the dead they raised" in the book.

    There is a way to resolve the Others threat, make it realistic. They conquer Westeros, a few surviving main characters flee to Essos and that's it.
    They showed that is how it works a whole season ago.
    Currently playing WoW & Path of Exile: Legion
    YAY NEW COMPUTER: i9-9900K@5.0GHz | Noctua NH-D15 | eVGA GTX 1080 Ti 2GHz FTW3 Hybrid | 32GB DDR4 | 256GB NVMe | 1.75TB SSD |
    Gigabyte Z390 Aorus Master | 7TB HDD | SeaSonic 750w 80+ Titanium PRIME | Chassis TBD
    Samsung 34" 3440x1440 Curved | Schiit MODI 2 + ASGARD 2 + Buzz Off | Sennheiser HD 598 | Presonus Eris E5*2 | KRK 10S | Shure BETA 58A

    Canon 5D Mark IV | Canon 7D Mark II | 24-70mm f/2.8 L II IS USM | 70-200mm f/2.8 L II IS USM | 100mm f/2.8 L IS USM MACRO |
    Sigma 18-35mm f/1.8 Art | Sigma 150-600mm f/5-6.3 Sport

  3. #25323
    "Davos to smuggle Varys and Arya into Kingslanding.

    Varys knows all the secret tunnels and passages, to get close to Cersei.

    Arya kills Cersei, takes her face, surrenders and bends the knee to Daenerys."


    Roll credits.
    .

    "This will be a fight against overwhelming odds from which survival cannot be expected. We will do what damage we can."

    -- Capt. Copeland

  4. #25324
    Quote Originally Posted by Huehuecoyotl View Post
    I'm sorry, but you are defending the indefensible here. You are talking about a martial land, with people being born into war and warfare. The council of people that planned that battle had a number of people with significant experience fighting large scale battles. They knew that the enemy could raise the dead, so the first plan had to be to ensure that they didn't feed any extra bodies to him. If the AotD were going to surround them, they needed to make sure that the Dothraki ended up outside the AotD, so that they could harry them. Then the NK would have to decide; leave them picking off his warriors, or send a force after them. If he sent a small group, they take it far enough away and destroy it, then come back. If they send a large enough force, keep leading them away, picking them off as you go. Any of their own that die, they burn to prevent them being brought back.

    The trebs and the unsullied would have been inside the walls. The trebs could continue to fire large balls of fire as long as possible, thinning out the enemy. The unsullied with their coordination and dragon glass spears could have held those walls a long time.

    Oh, and weren't there a few people in there with experience of giants knocking down gates at Winterfell? And knowledge that the AotD had at least one giant? But at no point did they think "let's make a plan for how to handle giants, otherwise our gate will be gone before we can blink". They had time to make trebuchets, but nobody thought to make a siege version of an arbalest with dragon glass tipped missiles to take out giants?

    They also knew that the NK can raise the dead, and not only did they put people in the crypts, but nobody thought to burn any bodies?

    There you go, that's off the top of my head. The battle plan was pathetic, and played into the strengths of the enemy while wasting their own troops. It insults the intelligence of the viewers to suggest that the experienced warriors in Winterfell would have come up with this. The writers should rightly be villified for creating this utter nonsense.
    I pretty clearly gave the reasoning behind what I said, in the context of one force vs another vast force of such supernatural origin. If you don't agree with that, fine. But let's not be ignorant of the fact that as anyone could see in that battle, any line of defense they had, be it Dothraki, infantry line, trebuchet's that did fuckall, even walls, were overwhelmed in minutes due to the sheer number and means in which these undead soldiers attack. No shuffling of x unit to x place was going to change the fact that they were outnumbered something like 10 to 1 by a foe who just simply doesn't stop for anything.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by MakeMeLaugh View Post
    Damn, you are trying to defend the battle tactics as well. And saying Bran warging the ravens actually did something. What the hell are you smoking?
    Yes, I am. Because like I just said to the other poster, sitting there trying to snipe about what made sense to you personally while ignoring everything else is stupid.

  5. #25325
    Quote Originally Posted by freefolk View Post
    "Davos to smuggle Varys and Arya into Kingslanding.

    Varys knows all the secret tunnels and passages, to get close to Cersei.

    Arya kills Cersei, takes her face, surrenders and bends the knee to Daenerys."


    Roll credits.

    You took that from Reddit didn’t you? I prefer the one where Bran just wargs someone in KL and kills Cersei.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Kellorion View Post
    Unless im mistaken, isnt Theon the only person the Night King has killed himself?
    He killed Bloodraven but that doesn’t really count.

  6. #25326
    Quote Originally Posted by ohiostate124 View Post
    You took that from Reddit didn’t you? I prefer the one where Bran just wargs someone in KL and kills Cersei.

    - - - Updated - - -



    He killed Bloodraven but that doesn’t really count.


    Quotes give it away?

    If Bran kills Cersei, Cersei can't bend the knee.
    Last edited by Independent voter; 2019-05-01 at 10:42 PM.
    .

    "This will be a fight against overwhelming odds from which survival cannot be expected. We will do what damage we can."

    -- Capt. Copeland

  7. #25327
    The Lightbringer 3DTyrant's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    The Aether
    Posts
    3,984
    Quote Originally Posted by Kellorion View Post
    Unless im mistaken, isnt Theon the only person the Night King has killed himself?
    That we know of. Unless you count old what's his face, the tree guy.
    Shath'mag vwyq shu et'agthu, Shath'mag sshk ye! Krz'ek fhn'z agash zz maqdahl or'kaaxth'ma amqa!
    The Black Empire once ruled this pitiful world, and it will do so again! Your pitiful kind will know only despair and sorrow for a hundred thousand millennia to come!
    Avatar drawn by Sir Meo

  8. #25328
    Quote Originally Posted by Mavick View Post
    I pretty clearly gave the reasoning behind what I said, in the context of one force vs another vast force of such supernatural origin. If you don't agree with that, fine. But let's not be ignorant of the fact that as anyone could see in that battle, any line of defense they had, be it Dothraki, infantry line, trebuchet's that did fuckall, even walls, were overwhelmed in minutes due to the sheer number and means in which these undead soldiers attack. No shuffling of x unit to x place was going to change the fact that they were outnumbered something like 10 to 1 by a foe who just simply doesn't stop for anything.
    And yet all the named characters who were infront of those lines of infantry that got overwhelmed in minutes survived with barely a scratch on them.

    How lucky for them.
    It ignores such insignificant forces as time, entropy, and death

  9. #25329
    Quote Originally Posted by Gorsameth View Post
    And yet all the named characters who were infront of those lines of infantry that got overwhelmed in minutes survived with barely a scratch on them.

    How lucky for them.
    Edd didn't. Besides I'm not sure they were actually in front of anyone. I recall there being a section of Unsullied and pretty sure the other units were on their own flanks, with the Dothraki spread in front of everyone, and with the Unsullied holding the areas of the trench that could be crossed back over via the collapsible bridge. Which makes sense as with their spears, shields and training they were probably best equipped to withstand the swarm longer than anyone. People also tend to say "without a scratch" while performing more selective ignorance of how many of them took stabs via the undead's well documented tactics of just blindly stabbing anywhere and everywhere, not always hitting a mortal blow.
    Last edited by Mavick; 2019-05-01 at 10:40 PM.

  10. #25330
    Quote Originally Posted by Mavick View Post
    Edd didn't. Besides I'm not sure they were actually in front of anyone. I recall there being a section of Unsullied and pretty sure the other units were on their own flanks, with the Dothraki spread in front of everyone, and with the Unsullied holding the areas of the trench that could be crossed back over via the collapsible bridge. Which makes sense as with their spears, shields and training they were probably best equipped to withstand the swarm longer than anyone. People also tend to say "without a scratch" while performing more selective ignorance of how many of them took stabs via the undead's well documented tactics of just blindly stabbing anywhere and everywhere, not always hitting a mortal blow.
    I actually had to google who Edd is. Yeah your right, 1 named guy that no one cared about and had 0 things to do in the story got stabbed.
    wow.

    Also we see Jaime, Brienne and Tormund stand at the front of the lines and see them got buried under a wall of undead in the opening seconds of the actual fight.
    It ignores such insignificant forces as time, entropy, and death

  11. #25331
    Quote Originally Posted by Gorsameth View Post
    I actually had to google who Edd is. Yeah your right, 1 named guy that no one cared about and had 0 things to do in the story got stabbed.
    wow.

    Also we see Jaime, Brienne and Tormund stand at the front of the lines and see them got buried under a wall of undead in the opening seconds of the actual fight.
    Edd was always an enjoyable character to me, so /shrug

    These were some of the better fighters in Westeros, they very nearly bit it several times in the episode. You can be mad all you want that they survived, but again, don't ignore the fact that they very nearly didn't, several times over. And personally I'm glad that we'll get to see them continue for at least another episode because a show without characters I like starts to become a boring show (reference my earlier comparison of TWD).

  12. #25332
    Quote Originally Posted by Mavick View Post
    You've done nothing but mis-reference thing after thing in this thread. In some alternative world where the obvious is right in front of you but you'd rather say "we never saw Arya, a trained assassin, stealthily advance on a target so it shouldn't be possible", you might be right. This isn't the world I come from, however, so just saying something like "I've posted misinterpretations that seem easy for other people to grasp but I posted anyway, so I have a point" doesn't really do anything for me.
    Again, the Faceless Men are never known for stealth. Not once. That's literally the point of them stealing faces and being "no one." Both missions Arya has been on during her training, the time the waif tried to kill Arya, even when Jaqen used his post as a guard in Harrenhal to kill the guards to free Arya - none of it was done with stealth. You're conflating assassin (which the FM surely are) with some sort of WoW rogue skill set. There are many ways to assassinate people, and the FM use essentially magical disguises and "being seen but not seen" as their tools. And your excuse for this is, "Well, we didn't see ALL of her training, so she must have done it offscreen!"

    That seems like you're the one mis-representing what we've actually observed.

  13. #25333
    Quote Originally Posted by Mavick View Post
    Edd didn't. Besides I'm not sure they were actually in front of anyone. I recall there being a section of Unsullied and pretty sure the other units were on their own flanks, with the Dothraki spread in front of everyone, and with the Unsullied holding the areas of the trench that could be crossed back over via the collapsible bridge. Which makes sense as with their spears, shields and training they were probably best equipped to withstand the swarm longer than anyone. People also tend to say "without a scratch" while performing more selective ignorance of how many of them took stabs via the undead's well documented tactics of just blindly stabbing anywhere and everywhere, not always hitting a mortal blow.
    They were in front and Edd actually survived the wave. He got killed when he tried to help Sam. Taking stabs is the same as "almost dying", we already discussed this, cheap tool to create an illusion of danger, since no one that mattered actually got killed.

  14. #25334
    They should have put their generals manning the walls like literally every single competent army in history. Greyworm being behind the lines actually made sense, why didn't they do the same for the rest is beyond me. Tormund is the only one I could buy being on the front lines and surviving that initial charge from the wight.

    The unsullied seem to be inspired by the Greek phalanx because of their long spears and considering the phalanx not working against that charge just makes me scream bullshit that all characters survived that.

  15. #25335
    Quote Originally Posted by Mavick View Post
    I pretty clearly gave the reasoning behind what I said, in the context of one force vs another vast force of such supernatural origin. If you don't agree with that, fine. But let's not be ignorant of the fact that as anyone could see in that battle, any line of defense they had, be it Dothraki, infantry line, trebuchet's that did fuckall, even walls, were overwhelmed in minutes due to the sheer number and means in which these undead soldiers attack. No shuffling of x unit to x place was going to change the fact that they were outnumbered something like 10 to 1 by a foe who just simply doesn't stop for anything.
    You explained your thinking, but there was nothing about it that was reasoned. If you want to believe that the way they fought the battle was realistic because they were going to lose whatever they did, so they might as well do stupid things, then clearly there is no discussion to be had here. It's a pretty lame defence of what the writers did in this episode. But I guess that's appropriate.
    When challenging a Kzin, a simple scream of rage is sufficient. You scream and you leap.

    Quote Originally Posted by George Carlin
    Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are stupider than that.
    Brexophilia: The act of rubbing yourself against dead political ideas for sexual pleasure.

  16. #25336
    Quote Originally Posted by eschatological View Post
    Again, the Faceless Men are never known for stealth. Not once. That's literally the point of them stealing faces and being "no one." Both missions Arya has been on during her training, the time the waif tried to kill Arya, even when Jaqen used his post as a guard in Harrenhal to kill the guards to free Arya - none of it was done with stealth. You're conflating assassin (which the FM surely are) with some sort of WoW rogue skill set. There are many ways to assassinate people, and the FM use essentially magical disguises and "being seen but not seen" as their tools. And your excuse for this is, "Well, we didn't see ALL of her training, so she must have done it offscreen!"

    That seems like you're the one mis-representing what we've actually observed.
    I've observed that the Faceless Men are master assassin's and I seriously doubt it was ever an intention to show us every method they had of killing a target. I've also observed that being able to pull a ninja-like move out of the shadows is probably something an assassin of any kind of quasi-fantasy setting would be capable of. I've also observed in this thread that repeatedly bringing this stupid subject up to try to drive some pointless discussion serves literally no purpose but as long as you want to keep trying it, since I currently have all the time in the world, I will continue pointing out how flawed your own "observations" happen to be.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Huehuecoyotl View Post
    You explained your thinking, but there was nothing about it that was reasoned. If you want to believe that the way they fought the battle was realistic because they were going to lose whatever they did, so they might as well do stupid things, then clearly there is no discussion to be had here. It's a pretty lame defence of what the writers did in this episode. But I guess that's appropriate.
    Just saying "not reasoned" without really explaining how doesn't really gain traction. They foreshadowed in the episode before that they couldn't win facing them head-on, and this was abundantly clear all throughout the battle. Nothing they did work, nothing you think they should have done would have worked either. The narrative was for the NK to soundly beat everything they had and win, until at the very end Arya manages to change that by doing the one thing that would let them win: engage him directly and personally.

  17. #25337
    People seem to be wayyyyy overthinking the Dothraki charge. It was a really good spectical with the flaming swords and the lights slowly blinking out, and that is what it was designed to be - a visual spectical. Light being extinguished was also a good metaphor for darkness vs. light.

    I thought it looked quite beautiful, actually, and also underlined just how bad the position was for the "good guys".

    Anyways, just my thoughts. I'm sure many will disagree.

  18. #25338
    Quote Originally Posted by Mavick View Post
    I've observed that the Faceless Men are master assassin's and I seriously doubt it was ever an intention to show us every method they had of killing a target. I've also observed that being able to pull a ninja-like move out of the shadows is probably something an assassin of any kind of quasi-fantasy setting would be capable of. I've also observed in this thread that repeatedly bringing this stupid subject up to try to drive some pointless discussion serves literally no purpose but as long as you want to keep trying it, since I currently have all the time in the world, I will continue pointing out how flawed your own "observations" happen to be.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Just saying "not reasoned" without really explaining how doesn't really gain traction. They foreshadowed in the episode before that they couldn't win facing them head-on, and this was abundantly clear all throughout the battle. Nothing they did work, nothing you think they should have done would have worked either. The narrative was for the NK to soundly beat everything they had and win, until at the very end Arya manages to change that by doing the one thing that would let them win: engage him directly and personally.
    Again, this is you misrepresenting what's actually been seen or known about in the world. The Faceless Men are poisoners, or they slit your throat while disguised as someone else. They're trained in typical close quarters combat.

    There's no indication anywhere that they have super agility, speed, or stealth. These are all representations you are making about them, and, to me, the observer of how they've actually been portrayed, it seems like a mis-representation.

    Edit: And the point of the discussion is to illustrate the bad writing taking place, which you refuse to say exists, and which you say none of us have been able to point out.

    Something D&D love to do is create layers of meta-narrative. They admitted it after this episode, they wanted Arya to kill the NK because Jon was "too obvious." That's playing to your audience, and not to the characterization of your characters, or the narrative of the world, or the themes of the work itself. They're constantly doing this meta-narrative by showing "beloved characters swarmed by death" only to appear fine shortly thereafter. It's how Jon survived the Battle of the Bastards. It's how Arya survived being repeated stabbed in the guts (hell, she was walking around the next day!) It's how Tormund and Edd, who were trapped at the top of the broken Wall last season, just magically showed up at Last Hearth this season with no indication of how they actually got down. It's how Theon took the Silence and freed Yara despite Euron having the best sailors in the Iron Fleet, who, on top of that, knew magic. They do things to pull the rugs out from under the audience, without caring if it makes sense. Two seasons ago I criticized LF's actions in marrying Sansa off to Ramsay, something book LF would never do, because it didn't serve his best advantage. He is, after all, a mastermind who would know Ramsay is known to literally hunt his whores down in the woods. If LF was always planning on bringing the Vale to help (or even if he wanted to just puppet Sansa in WF), he would need to be in her good graces to do so. He literally created his own death, to no possible benefit to himself. Two years ago, most of this forum were like, "NUH UH, LF will have a master plan! NUH UH, Sansa's marriage to Ramsay will make her a better character!" Neither is true. Sansa is essentially still the same character she was post-Ned dying in KL, except now she's been raped. That's not led to her distrusting men, or being too traumatized to be Lady Stark, or fortified her will - all it did was set her against LF.

    It's lazy, shitty writing that is meant to appeal to a mass audience. It's the same problem that TWD ran into, and you seemed to acknowledge TWD had this problem but can't see it here. It's why Cleganebowl will probably happen, it's why Cersei will probably shoot down one of the dragons with her ridiculous contraption, because we love to hate Cersei, etc.
    Last edited by eschatological; 2019-05-01 at 11:23 PM.

  19. #25339
    Quote Originally Posted by MakeMeLaugh View Post
    They were in front and Edd actually survived the wave. He got killed when he tried to help Sam. Taking stabs is the same as "almost dying", we already discussed this, cheap tool to create an illusion of danger, since no one that mattered actually got killed.
    In front of their own troops yes, the other poster was suggesting in front of the Unsullied, which I wasn't so sure of from my recollection of the pan-overs before the fighting started. And up to that point "the wave" never stops until the trenches are lit. So again, selective recollection of events, par for the course.

  20. #25340
    Quote Originally Posted by Raelyn View Post
    People seem to be wayyyyy overthinking the Dothraki charge. It was a really good spectical with the flaming swords and the lights slowly blinking out, and that is what it was designed to be - a visual spectical. Light being extinguished was also a good metaphor for darkness vs. light.

    I thought it looked quite beautiful, actually, and also underlined just how bad the position was for the "good guys".

    Anyways, just my thoughts. I'm sure many will disagree.
    Aesthetically it looked pretty, no argument there. But it was just a dumb move from their part, and that can easily trigger a lot of people who expect reasonable realism.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •