1. #25341
    Amazing episode. Wasnt too dark at all unless you were watching on a phone with dial up modem connection...

    Get a better tv is my best tip for the ones complaining about it being too dark. I saw everything perfectly the way it was intended.

  2. #25342
    Quote Originally Posted by Appelgren View Post
    Amazing episode. Wasnt too dark at all unless you were watching on a phone with dial up modem connection...

    Get a better tv is my best tip for the ones complaining about it being too dark. I saw everything perfectly the way it was intended.
    You must be the cinematographer.

  3. #25343
    Quote Originally Posted by eschatological View Post
    Again, this is you misrepresenting what's actually been seen or known about in the world. The Faceless Men are poisoners, or they slit your throat while disguised as someone else. They're trained in typical close quarters combat.

    There's no indication anywhere that they have super agility, speed, or stealth. These are all representations you are making about them, and, to me, the observer of how they've actually been portrayed, it seems like a mis-representation.
    They actually have displayed those attributes, as I mentioned to you already, if you're not selectively ignoring what Jaqen was capable of doing in Harrenhal assassinating 2 people without using faces (presumably) and showing up in the very next shots being just away, with no clear indication of how he was able to do that without making the very reasonable inference of "oh shit, this guy's a super sneaky killer assassin". That's not misrepresenting a single damn thing. That's me acknowledging the narrative they're clearly laying out for these characters of the Faceless Men. Not being obtuse and saying "but I didn't have it spoonfed to me so therefor I cannot comprehend anything else".

  4. #25344
    Quote Originally Posted by Huehuecoyotl View Post

    There you go, that's off the top of my head. The battle plan was pathetic, and played into the strengths of the enemy while wasting their own troops. It insults the intelligence of the viewers to suggest that the experienced warriors in Winterfell would have come up with this. The writers should rightly be villified for creating this utter nonsense.
    Especially given that the show made a point of having Tyrion list the battles that the assembled characters were veterans of literally the episode prior. But nobody said anything about, at the very least, putting the trebuchets in front of the infantry line and fortifications?

  5. #25345
    Quote Originally Posted by ohiostate124 View Post
    You must be the cinematographer.
    Ill be anything you want me to be if it makes you sleep good at night

  6. #25346
    Quote Originally Posted by Raelyn View Post
    People seem to be wayyyyy overthinking the Dothraki charge. It was a really good spectical with the flaming swords and the lights slowly blinking out, and that is what it was designed to be - a visual spectical. Light being extinguished was also a good metaphor for darkness vs. light.

    I thought it looked quite beautiful, actually, and also underlined just how bad the position was for the "good guys".

    Anyways, just my thoughts. I'm sure many will disagree.
    As Dave and DB said after the episode this is exactly what they were going for. So good on you for picking up on the vibe and I agree.

  7. #25347
    Quote Originally Posted by Mavick View Post
    As Dave and DB said after the episode this is exactly what they were going for. So good on you for picking up on the vibe and I agree.
    It’s dumb as fuck but it looked cool - perfectly describes D&D at this point.

  8. #25348
    Quote Originally Posted by Raelyn View Post
    People seem to be wayyyyy overthinking the Dothraki charge. It was a really good spectical with the flaming swords and the lights slowly blinking out, and that is what it was designed to be - a visual spectical. Light being extinguished was also a good metaphor for darkness vs. light.

    I thought it looked quite beautiful, actually, and also underlined just how bad the position was for the "good guys".

    Anyways, just my thoughts. I'm sure many will disagree.
    The problem with it is giving priority to a good spectacle over good storytelling, and people should absolutely be upset about it.

  9. #25349
    Quote Originally Posted by hulkgor View Post
    The problem with it is giving priority to a good spectacle over good storytelling, and people should absolutely be upset about it.
    As I pointed out earlier, people tend to get hung up on this but I'd love to see a good suggestion on just HOW you use the Dothraki here. All we've ever seen them due is charge in and overwhelm and enemy with pure brutality and fear, but what happens when those things don't exist in the enemy? In terms of the storytelling, as D&B allude too in the ITO, the plan seemed to be to have them engage and hopefully make something of a dent to help provoke the NK himself into direct combat, but this obviously didn't work. Neither did damn near anything else they tried until near the end, when the outcome was almost certainly in the NK's favor.

  10. #25350
    Don’t know if posted - trying to avoid the thread for now. Thought it was funny.

    “Fairy tales are more than true – not because they tell us dragons exist, but because they tell us dragons can be beaten.” - G. K. Chesterton & Neil Gaiman
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  11. #25351
    Quote Originally Posted by Mavick View Post
    As I pointed out earlier, people tend to get hung up on this but I'd love to see a good suggestion on just HOW you use the Dothraki here. All we've ever seen them due is charge in and overwhelm and enemy with pure brutality and fear, but what happens when those things don't exist in the enemy? In terms of the storytelling, as D&B allude too in the ITO, the plan seemed to be to have them engage and hopefully make something of a dent to help provoke the NK himself into direct combat, but this obviously didn't work. Neither did damn near anything else they tried until near the end, when the outcome was almost certainly in the NK's favor.
    Aren’t the Dothraki supposed to be amazing archers? That seems like a pretty good use for them.

  12. #25352
    Quote Originally Posted by ohiostate124 View Post
    Aren’t the Dothraki supposed to be amazing archers? That seems like a pretty good use for them.
    On horseback, yeah I've seen them use that. But again that's always been in conjunction with a horse charge. So I'm not sure how much difference that would ultimately make. Point I'm making, I guess, is that we've never seen the Dothraki alluded to as being anything along the lines of a defensive force. They've only ever just charged, so this really isn't breaking any of the "known rules", so to speak, regarding them.

  13. #25353
    Quote Originally Posted by Kellorion View Post
    Unless im mistaken, isnt Theon the only person the Night King has killed himself?
    Well, Theon did a sort of suicide charge there, so I would say he killed himself. Still 0 kills for Blue Darth Maul.

    Quote Originally Posted by Raelyn View Post
    People seem to be wayyyyy overthinking the Dothraki charge. It was a really good spectical with the flaming swords and the lights slowly blinking out, and that is what it was designed to be - a visual spectical. Light being extinguished was also a good metaphor for darkness vs. light.

    I thought it looked quite beautiful, actually, and also underlined just how bad the position was for the "good guys".

    Anyways, just my thoughts. I'm sure many will disagree.
    It's true, but you can make a scene both look awesome, dramatic AND not idiotic. Imagine a scene where Jon sends Sam to parley with Night King for a truce. Then a scene with zoom on Jon's face when he is dramatically crying hearing his former friend being torn to shreds. Sad music in the background of course. It would be sad, beautiful, light being extinguished AND really, really dumb.

    If anything, the episode really missed on some really awesome and cool looking moments. I mean, the fight between Lyanna Mormont and a Giant was all sorts of awesome - more of that. There was a lot of potential for cool dragonfights, wasted on a short biting scene with 2 black dragons on black background. White Daddies, none of them got to fight ANYONE in the episode, Jorah was freaking set up for that with his new Valyrian steel sword - same with Brienne, with an awesome blade and new title from previous episode could kick some WW ass. And I can't believe they had a Skyrim dragon fight setup with Jon and BlueDrake that has LANDED in Winterfell and never used it. Crypt scene, why even show zombies rising if there's no epic fight between Tyrion and Ancient Draugr Stark?

    That's why I can't get over this episode, not only didn't it make much sense but also wasted all potential for a truly epic battle. 50% of runtime was spent on closeups of Brienne/Jaime/Squire/Tormund acting like they are struggling against zombies and grunting, 30% was this shitty Assassins Creed cutscene with Arya in library.
    Last edited by Okacz; 2019-05-01 at 11:54 PM.

  14. #25354
    Quote Originally Posted by Mavick View Post
    They actually have displayed those attributes, as I mentioned to you already, if you're not selectively ignoring what Jaqen was capable of doing in Harrenhal assassinating 2 people without using faces (presumably) and showing up in the very next shots being just away, with no clear indication of how he was able to do that without making the very reasonable inference of "oh shit, this guy's a super sneaky killer assassin". That's not misrepresenting a single damn thing. That's me acknowledging the narrative they're clearly laying out for these characters of the Faceless Men. Not being obtuse and saying "but I didn't have it spoonfed to me so therefor I cannot comprehend anything else".
    I had to re-watch these scenes to see if what you said made any sense. It didn't.

    Jaqen is clearly a guard, and Arya asks him to kill people he's on cordial terms with. She asks him first to kill the Tickler, and the scene cuts away......some time has passed, the Tickler shows up dead, his head twisted backwards on his body, below a window which Jaqen is sitting in. The implication here is not that Jaqen stealthed up on him in the courtyard, then magically teleported up; the courtyard is out in the open, in the middle of the keep. Jaqen worked with the Tickler. He probably observed him (like the FM do), found him in a dark corridor with no witnesses, broke his neck, and threw him out a window. That seems to be the reasonable interpretation of what happened off-screen, not your weird "he's a sneaky assassin" extrapolation.

    Then Arya names a second name, and she wants it done now (which should be reasonable for any sneaky assassin), and Jaqen responds, "A girl cannot tell a man when exactly he must do a thing. A man cannot make a thing happen before its time." Arya insists on now. The scene cuts away, and cuts to Lorch falling through a door, dead, a weapon with Lannister red sticking out of neck - the man is also a fellow guard, and Jaqen need not sneak up on him at all, just get close enough to stick him with the pointy end.

    Then Arya wants to know how long it'll take for a third name. "A minute, an hour, a month," says Jaqen. "Death is certain...the time is not." She demands he kill Tywin Lannister, and Jaqen says he cannot do that. Then she asks for the guards to be killed, something he achieves offscreen, and again, the reasonable explanation is that HE, as a guard himself, just walks up to them and kills them. We never see it.


    I feel like Jaqen's insistence that names can take a month (presumably of observation, of being "seen but not seen" and then striking quickly) or more, and the religiousness of his "the time is not come" stance indicates to me that he's not a sneaky stealth assassin, but a magic-using disguised assassin who ingratiates himself into the lives of his victims to make them let their guard down. A thing he could achieve in HArrenhal easily because he was conscripted into the guards already.

    And again, I feel like my representation (that he used his status as guard) is a much more reasonable representation than yours, that Jaqen needs to sneak around to kill people. Even if this is an edge case (I don't think it is), it can be interpreted multiple ways, and in hindsight, a reasonable observer who now knows the tactics of the FM from Arya's training, must conclude that's how he did it.

  15. #25355
    Quote Originally Posted by eschatological View Post
    I had to re-watch these scenes to see if what you said made any sense. It didn't.

    Jaqen is clearly a guard, and Arya asks him to kill people he's on cordial terms with. She asks him first to kill the Tickler, and the scene cuts away......some time has passed, the Tickler shows up dead, his head twisted backwards on his body, below a window which Jaqen is sitting in. The implication here is not that Jaqen stealthed up on him in the courtyard, then magically teleported up; the courtyard is out in the open, in the middle of the keep. Jaqen worked with the Tickler. He probably observed him (like the FM do), found him in a dark corridor with no witnesses, broke his neck, and threw him out a window. That seems to be the reasonable interpretation of what happened off-screen, not your weird "he's a sneaky assassin" extrapolation.

    Then Arya names a second name, and she wants it done now (which should be reasonable for any sneaky assassin), and Jaqen responds, "A girl cannot tell a man when exactly he must do a thing. A man cannot make a thing happen before its time." Arya insists on now. The scene cuts away, and cuts to Lorch falling through a door, dead, a weapon with Lannister red sticking out of neck - the man is also a fellow guard, and Jaqen need not sneak up on him at all, just get close enough to stick him with the pointy end.

    Then Arya wants to know how long it'll take for a third name. "A minute, an hour, a month," says Jaqen. "Death is certain...the time is not." She demands he kill Tywin Lannister, and Jaqen says he cannot do that. Then she asks for the guards to be killed, something he achieves offscreen, and again, the reasonable explanation is that HE, as a guard himself, just walks up to them and kills them. We never see it.


    I feel like Jaqen's insistence that names can take a month (presumably of observation, of being "seen but not seen" and then striking quickly) or more, and the religiousness of his "the time is not come" stance indicates to me that he's not a sneaky stealth assassin, but a magic-using disguised assassin who ingratiates himself into the lives of his victims to make them let their guard down. A thing he could achieve in HArrenhal easily because he was conscripted into the guards already.

    And again, I feel like my representation (that he used his status as guard) is a much more reasonable representation than yours, that Jaqen needs to sneak around to kill people. Even if this is an edge case (I don't think it is), it can be interpreted multiple ways, and in hindsight, a reasonable observer who now knows the tactics of the FM from Arya's training, must conclude that's how he did it.
    You're still yet ignoring the fact that even if he says it can take a month, when push comes to shove he can make it happen right away. As for being a guard, that's all fine and good but you still can't take these actions in a heavily fortified area filled with OTHER GUARDS in plain view, so that makes absolutely no difference as you still can't be seen doing what you're doing regardless of what outfit you have on.

    Do you want to keep going with this?

    Also, at this point I'm going to have to point out that the level and effort you're going to simply to attempt to disprove the notion that a trained assassin shouldn't be capable of doing what Arya did has lost you any footing to claim you're not just doing this out of some sick form of spite to hate on something that doesn't deserve it.
    Last edited by Mavick; 2019-05-02 at 12:00 AM.

  16. #25356
    Quote Originally Posted by Mavick View Post
    You're still yet ignoring the fact that even if he says it can take a month, when push comes to shove he can make it happen right away. As for being a guard, that's all fine and good but you still can't take these actions in a heavily fortified area filled with OTHER GUARDS in plain view, so that makes absolutely no difference as you still can't be seen doing what you're doing regardless of what outfit you have on.

    Do you want to keep going with this?
    Sort of like how Arya can't kill the thin man or the actress in a crowd of other people? Sort of like how the waif can't find Arya out in the street in public and stab her repeatedly when there's a brief lull in potential witnesses?

    I can keep going always. I like to argue, especially when I'm right.

  17. #25357
    Quote Originally Posted by eschatological View Post
    Sort of like how Arya can't kill the thin man or the actress in a crowd of other people? Sort of like how the waif can't find Arya out in the street in public and stab her repeatedly when there's a brief lull in potential witnesses?

    I can keep going always. I like to argue, especially when I'm right.
    You're not right lol. You're just putting on the face of the vocal minority who do nothing but nitpick any little thing that doesn't line up with their own expectations. Everything I've said on the subject is easily grasped and recognized by the majority of people out there, despite the edglelord population on these boards, so in the end the fact that you want to continue debating your lost cause here doesn't bother me in the slightest, it only serves to make you look as foolish as you're being.

    Also, as to your first paragraph, killing someone in a town where people might not give a fuck is not the same thing as killing guards in a military camp. So let's not try to draw false comparisons to try to score some points here.

  18. #25358
    It's not nitpicking to show a consistent degenerative quality in the writing over the past 3 seasons. That's concern over a very major portion of, oh, dramatic storytelling.


    I guess Braavos, one of the busiest cities in the world, is not comparable to the undermanned, huge castle of Harrenhal (known to be one of the largest castles in Westeros)? I suppose that means you don't care about what the books say, either, when they describe Jaqen going to the guard's hut, chatting with them for a bit, and then killing them? No? Didn't think so - I didn't mention it earlier, because relying on the book can be a crutch, but in season 2, when they were closely following the books, it could be helpful.

    A nitpick would be the thing where people complain about Robert sending everyone away to have Ned pen his succession letter.

    I am not, by any means, an edgelord. I'm a soon-to-be-38 year old lawyer. I don't dislike things to dislike them - I, in fact, liked this episode for its cinematography, its music, etc. Saying the writing is bad doesn't mean the whole episode is bad.

  19. #25359
    Quote Originally Posted by Mavick View Post
    You're not right lol. You're just putting on the face of the vocal minority who do nothing but nitpick any little thing that doesn't line up with their own expectations. Everything I've said on the subject is easily grasped and recognized by the majority of people out there, despite the edglelord population on these boards, so in the end the fact that you want to continue debating your lost cause here doesn't bother me in the slightest, it only serves to make you look as foolish as you're being.

    Also, as to your first paragraph, killing someone in a town where people might not give a fuck is not the same thing as killing guards in a military camp. So let's not try to draw false comparisons to try to score some points here.
    Except you are arguing with everyone here, trying to defend your flawed view of bad writing, and calling inconsistency "nitpicking". So for you everyone is wrong and you are the only one right here. The majority of the population is stupid and is fine with anything, they don't question, they don't think, they don't care and they also do not discuss these things because they obviously cannot perceive these problems.

    For you, Arya running around the city with her belly open, jumping into a river, and then killing the waif is all fine because she was trained to be the very best, like no one ever was.

  20. #25360
    Quote Originally Posted by eschatological View Post
    It's not nitpicking to show a consistent degenerative quality in the writing over the past 3 seasons. That's concern over a very major portion of, oh, dramatic storytelling.


    I guess Braavos, one of the busiest cities in the world, is not comparable to the undermanned, huge castle of Harrenhal (known to be one of the largest castles in Westeros)? I suppose that means you don't care about what the books say, either, when they describe Jaqen going to the guard's hut, chatting with them for a bit, and then killing them? No? Didn't think so - I didn't mention it earlier, because relying on the book can be a crutch, but in season 2, when they were closely following the books, it could be helpful.

    A nitpick would be the thing where people complain about Robert sending everyone away to have Ned pen his succession letter.

    I am not, by any means, an edgelord. I'm a soon-to-be-38 year old lawyer. I don't dislike things to dislike them - I, in fact, liked this episode for its cinematography, its music, etc. Saying the writing is bad doesn't mean the whole episode is bad.
    Yet you haven't shown a "consistent degenerative quality in writing over the past 3 seasons". Everything you've said about it I've countered because, as I've demonstrated repeatedly everything you're saying is based upon your own failed perceptions and selective memory about what has happened. There are a multitude of clear narratives in this show, and even when it's not so clear it's not hard to apply some thought to make sense of it AS LONG as you don't let yourself get convinced by whatever online trolls are screaming "this writing sucks".

    Also, age and profession have absolutely fuckall with being an edgelord. I've been guilty of it myself and I'm older and more intelligent than you.

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