1. #25361
    Quote Originally Posted by Deuse View Post
    The song of ice and fire is ultimately the eternal battle between the Great Other and R'hllor. In the show, religions are only a subplot which has now been resolved; R'hllor is victorious with assistance from the Many-Faced God and the Old Gods. The show elected to depict this through actual characters... we could say the champions of the gods, so to speak. Therefore, the Great Other (Night King) was defeated by the combined forces of R'hllor (Azor Ahai: Jon and Daenerys), the Many-Faced God (Death: Arya) and the Old Gods (Three-Eyed Raven: Bran). But this is a Game of Thrones and the main plot of the TV show has always been the focus on the Iron Throne.
    Maybe when the sixth book finally comes out, the ratio may be changed as he is supposed to write a lot more about the threat (real one) beyond the wall, but so far, it has mainly been about Danny and dragons and freeing slaves overseas, Arya learning to be a faceless man, and who is getting the Iron Throne.

    The book throws prophecies around and that "great" fight is mentioned enough to avoid being forgotten, but it never came across as a focus to me

  2. #25362
    Quote Originally Posted by Deuse View Post
    The song of ice and fire is ultimately the eternal battle between the Great Other and R'hllor. In the show, religions are only a subplot which has now been resolved; R'hllor is victorious with assistance from the Many-Faced God and the Old Gods. The show elected to depict this through actual characters... we could say the champions of the gods, so to speak. Therefore, the Great Other (Night King) was defeated by the combined forces of R'hllor (Azor Ahai: Jon and Daenerys), the Many-Faced God (Death: Arya) and the Old Gods (Three-Eyed Raven: Bran). But this is a Game of Thrones and the main plot of the TV show has always been the focus on the Iron Throne.
    You're messing up the religions, a bit. I'd say the Night's King is the other side of the coin of the 3ER in the Old Gods religion. The Many-Faced God is represented in all religions by Death - in the Old Gods, that would be the NK, in the Seven the House of Black and White chooses the Stranger. They even worship the darker aspects of R'hllor, a dualistic god whose priestesses can birth shadows.

    It's not as easy as that to say "these religions beat some other religion."

    If you want some real world analogues:

    1) The Old Gods are like paganism.
    2) The Seven are like the Greco-Roman pantheon.
    3) R'hllor is the upstart, light-filled savior religion, AKA Christianity
    4) The Many-Faced God is like the Bahai, who believed in all religions, to an extent.
    Last edited by eschatological; 2019-05-03 at 06:33 PM.

  3. #25363
    Bloodsail Admiral Isilrien's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontenac View Post
    I will use your post as a template and this post is not only addressed to you.

    We do not know enough about the Others in the book to know exactly what are Martin's intentions towards them. All we know is that in the distant past, they tried to obliterate humanity (and the living) and that humans, giants and children of the forest has defeated but not destroyed them and that they built a magical wall of ice to keep them at bay. We know nothing about their culture, their motivations or if even they have motivations. All we know is that they are a lethal threat to humanity.
    I'm not talking about the book but the show. The white walkers and the NK were shown in the show to be powerful, and we're told by Bran that the NK's intention is to wipe out humanity. Martin said in 2001, "The battle between good and evil is a legitimate theme for a Fantasy (or for any work of fiction, for that matter), but in real life that battle is fought chiefly in the individual human heart. Too many contemporary Fantasies take the easy way out by externalizing the struggle, so the heroic protagonists need only smite the evil minions of the dark power to win the day. And you can tell the evil minions, because they're inevitably ugly and they all wear black. I wanted to stand much of that on its head. In real life, the hardest aspect of the battle between good and evil is determining which is which." We have no trouble discerning who is evil in the show, and this departs entirely from Martin's outlook. This may change as more information emerges, but right now, the NK is evil and clearly so.

    Quote Originally Posted by Frontenac View Post
    Yeah, that's generaly how things work.
    That doesn't mean that I should accept it. It's lazy and contrived, and I don't care for it (nor have I elsewhere in this show).


    Quote Originally Posted by Frontenac View Post
    No. The Night King was killed in 82 minutes. The whole point of the Battle of Winterfell was to goad him to attack Bran and kill him.
    We'll have to agree to disagree here. The 82 minutes was a lead-up to the confrontation. At the moment when Arya launched herself at him, it ended rapidly, thus proving the theory that he is powerful and must be kept separate from humanity because of this power that emerged gradually over 10 years a lie.

    Quote Originally Posted by Frontenac View Post
    The Night King was very powerful and shown to be so several times during the series. He can create White Walkers. He can raise the dead easily (Hardhome). He can interact with Bran when he's tree-worging and can even mark him physically. He can detect Bran when he's worging crows and unworg him. He can one-shot a dragon in flight by throwing a javelin. He can raise the dragon to undeath. He's impervious to fire, even dragon fire. However, he has on Achille's Heal: as every other White Walkers, he can be killed if he's hit with obsidian or valyrian steel weapons.

    But first, you must get to him. And that part has been hard as hell.
    How was it shown in the show that it's been hard to get to him? The one time when Jon and the others went north to get a wight to show Cersei? Their objective was what--to get to the NK, or to show Cersei the reality of the threat? I think it was the latter, and thus, they did not attempt to get to him. At the most, Beric commented that if they killed him, the rest would cease as a threat. But that was all--just a comment (which Jon dismissed by saying Beric didn't understand).


    Quote Originally Posted by Frontenac View Post
    Indeed. Just like Sauron would have been history if Isildur just threw the damned ring in the fiery chasm. I don't see any problem with that.
    Again, another point to agree to disagree on. I objected to this because it made this entire plotline useless and a waste of time.



    Quote Originally Posted by Frontenac View Post
    And that's where we may address the "Arya had nothing to do with the NK" argument. Yes, I'll admit that I would have prefered if Jon had been the one to kill the Night King. However, I disagree that, first, Arya had nothing to do with the Night King and, second, that it is bad writing if she did.

    Arya had some reasons to want to kill the Night King. First, the obvious one: he was attacking her brother in her home. Arya is all about "the Pack". Second, since the very first season, Arya's theme has been death, just like her favorite "brother", Jon Snow. From Syrio Forel ("There is only one god, and his name is Death. And what do we say to Death? Not today.") to the Faceless Men who are worshipping death itself. And let's not forget her little prayer. Then you have Bran that gives him the valyrian steel dagger, the perfect assassin's weapon. And then you have a plan which amounts to an assassination plot. The army will hold off the dead, while Bran is used as bait to lure the Night King who will then be killed. Arya is a trained assassin. It made sense for her to be there. She should have been there since the beginning to be frank, and that's a problem. So, maybe the NK's plot gets diminished (maybe), but Arya's own character arc gets more meaning and impact.

    True, Jon would have been better, because he does have more links to the Night King. However, that does not mean that he had to be the one who killed the Night King. Let's look at Lord of the Rings. What were Eowyn's links with the Witch King? There was none. If the Witch King had to be killed by someone who had serious motives to kill him, it would have been Aragorn. Afterall, he's probably a Numenorian, like Aragorn, and he destroyed the northern kingdoms ruled by Aragorn's ancestors when he was King of Angmar. But no, he was killed by a lady from Rohan with the help of a hobbit with a numenorian blade. And it was done rather quickly too.

    And Sauron? Was there a big confrontation between Aragorn and Sauron? No. Like the Night King, Sauron used his troops to protect him. All it took to destroy him, was that someone threw his ring into Mount Doom. And it was not even Frodo who did it, but Gollum. And as soon as the Ring was destroyed, Sauron died and all his empire fell into dust with him in mere seconds. Sounds familiar?
    I am not in the camp that Arya had no reason to kill the NK, so I'll leave that aside since you're addressing others here. Yes, the death of Sauron does have similarities to the NK, but throwing the ring into the fire was not a straight shot like the dagger was for the NK. How much stuggle--physical and internal--happened when they got to Mount Doom? Much more than what happened with the NK. In that sense, they cannot be compared. I wanted more challenge, more struggle, because this would have fit into the build-up around the NK that we had been given in the show. Arya was not fazed in any sense, and like that, he was dead. What a let down.

    I recognize that you disagree, and that's (of course) perfectly acceptable to me. I'm just explaining my viewpoint so that you understand, not so that you are persuaded to agreement. Thank you for taking the time to explain your viewpoint, and I can respect and understand it. We're just not in agreement with everything, but that's cool too.

    Quote Originally Posted by Frontenac View Post
    That's the one part I can agree with. I would have prefered if they ended the show with that plot. It's more a matter of "when" than "how" for me. That being said, the war for the Iron Throne and its family feuds has been the main plot for most of the show and the main concern for most of the characters. Therefore, it has a greater emotional impact than the WW's plot and could end the show on a higher note.
    I agree that the human politics was the main theme. However, I also think that the NK was a notable and important counterpoint and thus equally a main theme because this struggle explained and fleshed out some of the themes of factionalism, a fight for survival, how people are a mix of good and bad, and the nuances that emerge in relationships. It added something to the politics theme, something richer (or it had the potential to, although I think it failed marginally in this regard). I like that Martin recognizes and highlights this mixture in human nature--that nothing is truly and purely good or evil, and that what is good or evil is not always immediately recognizable. However, the NK turned into a purely evil character (at least as of episode 3), and I was disappointed at the lack of nuance and coherence with the plot arc that the show had developed up to that point.

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    Quote Originally Posted by eschatological View Post
    You're messing up the religions, a bit. I'd say the Night's King is the other side of the coin of the 3ER in the Old Gods religion. The Many-Faced God is represented in all religions by Death - in the Old Gods, that would be the NK, in the Seven the House of Black and White chooses the Stranger. They even worship the darker aspects of R'hllor, a dualistic god whose priestesses can birth shadows.

    It's not as easy as that to say "these religions beat some other religion."

    If you want some real world analogues:

    1) The Old Gods are like paganism.
    2) The Seven are like the Greco-Roman pantheon.
    3) R'hllor is the upstart, light-filled savior religion, AKA Christianity
    4) The Many-Faced God is like the Bahai, who believed in all religions, to an extent.
    Interestingly to this discussion about religion: did anyone else notice that the NK's pupils were shaped like a seven-pointed star? So, is he representative of the Stranger in the religion of the Seven? Nothing may come of this in the show, but still thought it interesting enough to comment on.

  4. #25364
    Quote Originally Posted by lonely zergling View Post
    I cant see the bittersweet ending yet tbh. So far its only bitter.

    Only way to recover this bad writing a bit is if arya gets some consequences for good. Show established that you cant just go around killing people with the faceless magic without paying for the lifes you unrightfully took and then we see arya mass killing the freys using her magic and nothing happens. Then she gets touched by the NK and seems to be quite well. Maybe she gets cursed and dies from it in next episodes? Or when she touches Bran he dies. There needs to be a loss...

    But after that lyanna mormont scene I dont have much hope for sane writing. Its only pandering to feminism nowadays. I almost died laughing when she charged at the giant.
    To be fair, the Many Faced god will be VERY happy with Arya after ep 3. NK stole the dead from the Many Faced God.
    READ and be less Ignorant.

  5. #25365
    a song of ice and fire could mean starks and targs who are the main story telling focus, but so is the lannisters so eh
    Suri Cruise and Katie Holmes are SP's.

  6. #25366
    Quote Originally Posted by RobertoCarlos View Post
    a song of ice and fire could mean starks and targs who are the main story telling focus, but so is the lannisters so eh
    Danny beats Cersei, Arya stabs Danny and Jon, Sansa sits on the Iron Throne?

    Sure would be a plot twist
    It ignores such insignificant forces as time, entropy, and death

  7. #25367
    The Lightbringer Frontenac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Isilrien View Post
    I'm not talking about the book but the show. The white walkers and the NK were shown in the show to be powerful, and we're told by Bran that the NK's intention is to wipe out humanity. Martin said in 2001, "The battle between good and evil is a legitimate theme for a Fantasy (or for any work of fiction, for that matter), but in real life that battle is fought chiefly in the individual human heart. Too many contemporary Fantasies take the easy way out by externalizing the struggle, so the heroic protagonists need only smite the evil minions of the dark power to win the day. And you can tell the evil minions, because they're inevitably ugly and they all wear black. I wanted to stand much of that on its head. In real life, the hardest aspect of the battle between good and evil is determining which is which." We have no trouble discerning who is evil in the show, and this departs entirely from Martin's outlook. This may change as more information emerges, but right now, the NK is evil and clearly so.
    I know you were talking about the show. My point was that we don't know much about the Others in the book, so it's hard to know if the show is going against Martin's intentions in the way they are showing the White Walkers. I believe that it is indeed hard, even in the show, to tell if human characters are truely evil in the way villains are traditionally portrayed in that genre. Most characters, even Cersei, have some nuances. As for the White Walkers, I wonder if we can really say they are evil. They are an evil, a threat to humanity's survival, but I can't say they are morally evil. The Night King did not have a choice to become the Night King. It was imposed on him by the Children of the Forest (unless the prequel series tells us otherwise). As I explained in an other post, to me the WWs are a weapon of mass destruction that is simply following its purpose. It may still be that way in the books.

    How was it shown in the show that it's been hard to get to him? The one time when Jon and the others went north to get a wight to show Cersei? Their objective was what--to get to the NK, or to show Cersei the reality of the threat? I think it was the latter, and thus, they did not attempt to get to him. At the most, Beric commented that if they killed him, the rest would cease as a threat. But that was all--just a comment (which Jon dismissed by saying Beric didn't understand).
    I was talking about the last episode. Bran had to worg to goad the Night King to attack and show himself. Then Jon and Dany attacks him on their dragons, and it doesn't work well in all that storm (created by the Night King). The Night King falls, but is unharmed. Jon falls too on Rhaegal. Dany attempts to burn him with dragon fire, but to no avail. Then Jon charges the Night King, but he raises the dead, Jon gets surrounded and the Night King can go to the Godswood. Drogon gets overwhelmed by wights, Dany is left alone, with Jorah. Jon manages to follow the Night King, but Viserion guards the gates to the godswood and he still can't get to the Night King. Theon and the Iron Born fail to protect Bran. Bran was all but dead, and it's only after a desperate attempt that Arya manages to save the day. And to do that, she had to use the numerous skills she has learned from Syrio Forel and the Faceless Men to survive the onslaught in Winterfell and get to the godswood. It was not a stroll in the park.


    I am not in the camp that Arya had no reason to kill the NK, so I'll leave that aside since you're addressing others here. Yes, the death of Sauron does have similarities to the NK, but throwing the ring into the fire was not a straight shot like the dagger was for the NK. How much stuggle--physical and internal--happened when they got to Mount Doom? Much more than what happened with the NK. In that sense, they cannot be compared. I wanted more challenge, more struggle, because this would have fit into the build-up around the NK that we had been given in the show. Arya was not fazed in any sense, and like that, he was dead. What a let down.
    True... All comparisons fail at some point. But GoT and LotR are different stories too. In LotR, there is a clear quest given to one character. There is not one plot in GoT. It is more character driven. Each character has its own story arc and personal struggles, each has its own journey to Mount Doom. Like Bran said, each character had to live through all those pains to become what they were at last and be ready to confront the WWs. Arya has eaten a lot of shit before she became the assassin able to "surprise" (barely) and kill the Night King. In a way, it is more realistic. We do not live our whole life to face one specific event. We develop our skills and than we can face what is thrown at us.

    Anyway, I will admit, that yes, I was a bit disappointed too at first, although I enjoyed the episode. I'm just trying to explain it all. Because I do not think that Benioff and Weiss are bad writers. Neither are they perfect writers. "Bad writing" is an accusation that is being thrown far too easily for my taste these days. Mostly by people who are disgruntled that their expectations are not met. The others are often people who believe that being overly negative gives them more critical thought. In the end, they can even tell you that a show will suck before they have even seen one picture, read one line or even know the casting...
    "Je vous répondrai par la bouche de mes canons!"

  8. #25368
    Fluffy Kitten -aiko-'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chelly View Post


    Perfect video. Nails it all. Especially the end rant:
    Worth re-posting this. It summarizes my thoughts perfectly.

    There is no coming back from this. Game of Thrones is ruined. I only hope GRRM gets off his ass and finishes the story properly.

  9. #25369
    I think Arya is going to kill one of the Children of the Forest.


  10. #25370
    Quote Originally Posted by Frontenac View Post
    And that's where we may address the "Arya had nothing to do with the NK" argument. Yes, I'll admit that I would have prefered if Jon had been the one to kill the Night King. However, I disagree that, first, Arya had nothing to do with the Night King and, second, that it is bad writing if she did.

    Arya had some reasons to want to kill the Night King. First, the obvious one: he was attacking her brother in her home. Arya is all about "the Pack". Second, since the very first season, Arya's theme has been death, just like her favorite "brother", Jon Snow. From Syrio Forel ("There is only one god, and his name is Death. And what do we say to Death? Not today.") to the Faceless Men who are worshipping death itself. And let's not forget her little prayer. Then you have Bran that gives him the valyrian steel dagger, the perfect assassin's weapon. And then you have a plan which amounts to an assassination plot. The army will hold off the dead, while Bran is used as bait to lure the Night King who will then be killed. Arya is a trained assassin. It made sense for her to be there. She should have been there since the beginning to be frank, and that's a problem. So, maybe the NK's plot gets diminished (maybe), but Arya's own character arc gets more meaning and impact.

    True, Jon would have been better, because he does have more links to the Night King. However, that does not mean that he had to be the one who killed the Night King. Let's look at Lord of the Rings. What were Eowyn's links with the Witch King? There was none. If the Witch King had to be killed by someone who had serious motives to kill him, it would have been Aragorn. Afterall, he's probably a Numenorian, like Aragorn, and he destroyed the northern kingdoms ruled by Aragorn's ancestors when he was King of Angmar. But no, he was killed by a lady from Rohan with the help of a hobbit with a numenorian blade. And it was done rather quickly too.

    And Sauron? Was there a big confrontation between Aragorn and Sauron? No. Like the Night King, Sauron used his troops to protect him. All it took to destroy him, was that someone threw his ring into Mount Doom. And it was not even Frodo who did it, but Gollum. And as soon as the Ring was destroyed, Sauron died and all his empire fell into dust with him in mere seconds. Sounds familiar?
    I'm not sure I follow your comparisons to Lord of the Rings. The Witch King had no personal interactions with any of the characters. There was no build up at all for any of them in the story. Yes we are told about the history of Aragorn's ancestry but we don't experience it.

    As for Sauron then I also fail to see the similarities. None of the characters were ever going to fight him physically. There was never a build up between him and Aragorn like there was between Jon and the NK. It was all about the ring. And Frodo brought it all the way to the edge of the lava pit in Mount Doom. And then Gollum another character with a deep attachment to the ring ended up destroying it. It's very symbolic. If you change this to Frodo collapsing and dying at the foot of Mount Doom and then some other character picks it up, climbs up the mountain and then destroys the ring then it's much more similar to what they did in GoT.

    Through the show Arya has had no personal interaction with the NK or his army. No struggles between them at all. Nothing. This episode is the first time she even sees a wight. Yes they have shown hints like the dagger trick (once they decided 3 years ago that it would be her) but they are all "technical" hints not story related. That's why I was left with an empty feeling shortly after watching the episode. It didn't have a lasting satisfactory feel to it like many other epic conclusions. It looked awesome while it was happening but it's not memorable at all because there's no feeling to it.
    Last edited by Marfrila; 2019-05-03 at 09:25 PM.

  11. #25371
    Bloodsail Admiral Isilrien's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontenac View Post
    I know you were talking about the show. My point was that we don't know much about the Others in the book, so it's hard to know if the show is going against Martin's intentions in the way they are showing the White Walkers. I believe that it is indeed hard, even in the show, to tell if human characters are truely evil in the way villains are traditionally portrayed in that genre. Most characters, even Cersei, have some nuances. As for the White Walkers, I wonder if we can really say they are evil. They are an evil, a threat to humanity's survival, but I can't say they are morally evil. The Night King did not have a choice to become the Night King. It was imposed on him by the Children of the Forest (unless the prequel series tells us otherwise). As I explained in an other post, to me the WWs are a weapon of mass destruction that is simply following its purpose. It may still be that way in the books.
    Good point, and I see your argument. Just to clarify: When I discribed the NK as purely evil, I'm basing this on what Bran said--that he intends and wants to destroy all of humanity. Perhaps Bran is wrong, and given that he has been wrong before (i.e., calling Jon a Sand), he could very have been wrong about the NK's intentions. If it comes out in the remaining episodes that he was more nuanced and 'grey' than that, then my objection will no longer hold any weight. As of right now, with the way the NK was portrayed in the show, he is purely evil. If it remains this way, then my objection that D&D departed from Martin's outlook stands. I recognize that the NK had no choice, but I'm not sure how he could justify wanting to destroy those who did not do this to him (if that was his intention).

    Quote Originally Posted by Frontenac View Post
    I was talking about the last episode. Bran had to worg to goad the Night King to attack and show himself. Then Jon and Dany attacks him on their dragons, and it doesn't work well in all that storm (created by the Night King). The Night King falls, but is unharmed. Jon falls too on Rhaegal. Dany attempts to burn him with dragon fire, but to no avail. Then Jon charges the Night King, but he raises the dead, Jon gets surrounded and the Night King can go to the Godswood. Drogon gets overwhelmed by wights, Dany is left alone, with Jorah. Jon manages to follow the Night King, but Viserion guards the gates to the godswood and he still can't get to the Night King. Theon and the Iron Born fail to protect Bran. Bran was all but dead, and it's only after a desperate attempt that Arya manages to save the day. And to do that, she had to use the numerous skills she has learned from Syrio Forel and the Faceless Men to survive the onslaught in Winterfell and get to the godswood. It was not a stroll in the park.
    Ah, I see what you mean. Thanks for taking the time to explain.


    Quote Originally Posted by Frontenac View Post
    True... All comparisons fail at some point. But GoT and LotR are different stories too. In LotR, there is a clear quest given to one character. There is not one plot in GoT. It is more character driven. Each character has its own story arc and personal struggles, each has its own journey to Mount Doom. Like Bran said, each character had to live through all those pains to become what they were at last and be ready to confront the WWs. Arya has eaten a lot of shit before she became the assassin able to "surprise" (barely) and kill the Night King. In a way, it is more realistic. We do not live our whole life to face one specific event. We develop our skills and than we can face what is thrown at us.
    Oh, indeed--LOTR and GoT are different. I was only responding to your comment that the destruction of the ring at Mount Doom and the death of the NK were somewhat analogous. They are but only to an extent, as you've discussed here. You've made some excellent points here about the struggle, so to be fair, I will need to take what you've said into consideration and change my opinion if it's ultimately persuasive. Again, thanks for the thoughtful, respectful discussion.

    Quote Originally Posted by Frontenac View Post
    Anyway, I will admit, that yes, I was a bit disappointed too at first, although I enjoyed the episode. I'm just trying to explain it all. Because I do not think that Benioff and Weiss are bad writers. Neither are they perfect writers. "Bad writing" is an accusation that is being thrown far too easily for my taste these days. Mostly by people who are disgruntled that their expectations are not met. The others are often people who believe that being overly negative gives them more critical thought. In the end, they can even tell you that a show will suck before they have even seen one picture, read one line or even know the casting...
    I'm not trying to be negative just to be critical, so I hope it doesn't come across that way. I'm in graduate school, so I tend to pick apart everything I read or watch for both what worked and what didn't seem to work as well. I'm still processing what I think about this build-up of the NK as a serious existential threat, and yet who was vanquished in one battle (regardless of how challenging and overwhelming it was). I'm starting to think that I bought into the seriousness of it such that this episode seemed to treat it a little too casually. But I'm open to re-assessing that, and also seeing what the remaining episodes have to say, as it were.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Lycanthat View Post
    I think Arya is going to kill one of the Children of the Forest.

    Completely and frivolously off-topic, but everytime I see the Children, I think this must be what Barkskin looks like on Druids (or Ironbark on those we cast it on) :-p

  12. #25372
    The Lightbringer Frontenac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marfrila View Post
    I'm not sure I follow your comparisons to Lord of the Rings. The Witch King had no personal interactions with any of the characters. There was no build up at all for any of them in the story. Yes we are told about the history of Aragorn's ancestry but we don't experience it.
    Still, that meager historical link between Aragorn and the Witch King was more than what Eowyn had. My point was that it is not necessary that a character had a relation with a villain to kill it. The fact the Witch King just killed Theoden was reason enough for Eowyn to intervene.

    As for Sauron then I also fail to see the similarities. None of the characters were ever going to fight him physically. There was never a build up between him and Aragorn like there was between Jon and the NK.
    Oh, I'm not so sure. It is pretty clear that Aragorn's mission is to confront Sauron and win back the throne of Gondor. And Aragorn is Sauron's main concern. He is the Heir of Isildur. When Aragorn confronts him when he uses the palantir from Orthanc, and shows to him the very blade that defeated him during the last war, Sauron is pretty sure that Aragorn has the Ring and that he will use it against him. In fact there is more history between Aragorn and Sauron than there is between Jon and the Night King. Jon wants to stop the WWs and the Night King, but there was no big target marked "Jon Snow's property" on the Night King's forehead. His main role has always been to assemble the most people possible to confront the WWs, but that does not mean that he was destined to personally kill him. At this point everyone was struggling to end the Night King.

    It was all about the ring. And Frodo brought it all the way to the edge of the lava pit in Mount Doom.
    And failed. Just like Jon Snow who tried to reach the Night King but failed at the godswood's gate.

    And then Gollum another character with a deep attachment to the ring ended up destroying it.
    And here instead you have Arya succeeding where Jon failed. But then you will say "there's no story between Arya and the Night King." No there isn't, and like I said with Eowyn there's no need to be. Bran was her brother and she saved him. She saved her pack and her home. The assassin who learned her art in a death cult killed the king of the Undead. That's not so bad.
    "Je vous répondrai par la bouche de mes canons!"

  13. #25373
    Quote Originally Posted by Chelly View Post


    Perfect video. Nails it all. Especially the end rant:
    This video is cathartic

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rhlor View Post


    Toby Osmond in seville


    I think that toby can be Quentyn Martell

    Interesting. Not sure how I feel about bringing in Quentyn at this point though.

  14. #25374
    Quote Originally Posted by Xilurm View Post
    Guys, don't bother. He's kinda right you know. It's the reason a lot if not most tv shows are shite these days, cause of viewers like him who can't sit down to think for 5 seconds.
    Actually I do think. That's why I can connect the dots and remember things that others here have not. I'm not the lazy one who writes "Arya killing the NK like that makes no sense" and leaves it at that. One side is definitely not thinking, but it isn't mine.

  15. #25375
    The Lightbringer Frontenac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Isilrien View Post
    Good point, and I see your argument. Just to clarify: When I discribed the NK as purely evil, I'm basing this on what Bran said--that he intends and wants to destroy all of humanity. Perhaps Bran is wrong, and given that he has been wrong before (i.e., calling Jon a Sand), he could very have been wrong about the NK's intentions. If it comes out in the remaining episodes that he was more nuanced and 'grey' than that, then my objection will no longer hold any weight. As of right now, with the way the NK was portrayed in the show, he is purely evil. If it remains this way, then my objection that D&D departed from Martin's outlook stands. I recognize that the NK had no choice, but I'm not sure how he could justify wanting to destroy those who did not do this to him (if that was his intention).
    Does he even have free will in that matter? I mean, he is an intelligent being, but he may not have a choice in this matter. He was rigged by the Children of the Forest to destroy humanity. He cannot help it. But, yeah, I admit that is mere speculation on my part. I'm just telling it as I see it.


    I'm not trying to be negative just to be critical, so I hope it doesn't come across that way. I'm in graduate school, so I tend to pick apart everything I read or watch for both what worked and what didn't seem to work as well. I'm still processing what I think about this build-up of the NK as a serious existential threat, and yet who was vanquished in one battle (regardless of how challenging and overwhelming it was). I'm starting to think that I bought into the seriousness of it such that this episode seemed to treat it a little too casually. But I'm open to re-assessing that, and also seeing what the remaining episodes have to say, as it were.
    Don't worry, it was not aimed at you. This conversation is indeed interesting.


    Completely and frivolously off-topic, but everytime I see the Children, I think this must be what Barkskin looks like on Druids (or Ironbark on those we cast it on) :-p
    You are not alone:

    "Je vous répondrai par la bouche de mes canons!"

  16. #25376
    Quote Originally Posted by ohiostate124 View Post
    This video is cathartic

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    Interesting. Not sure how I feel about bringing in Quentyn at this point though.
    They might need all the help they can to combat Cersei at this point.
    The Dorthraki are basically gone and the unsullied are turned into Greyjoy and his band of brothers.
    The Martell house still has a score to settle in Kings Landing..

  17. #25377
    I’m expected the Golden Company to betray Cersei at some point.

  18. #25378
    Quote Originally Posted by -aiko- View Post
    Worth re-posting this. It summarizes my thoughts perfectly.

    There is no coming back from this. Game of Thrones is ruined. I only hope GRRM gets off his ass and finishes the story properly.
    He told them 'his' ending years ago, so the ending you may not like might very well be the ending he's aiming at in the books.
    But with GRRM turning 70 last year he could legit die before the books reach that point.
    I know he used to get very upset when confronted with this fact but 2 years later and still no new book, let alone a final book, its slowly becoming reality.
    Not everyone gets to be 80+. The show might just be an insurance the story gets told..

  19. #25379
    Fluffy Kitten -aiko-'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mascotte View Post
    He told them 'his' ending years ago, so the ending you may not like might very well be the ending he's aiming at in the books.
    That's the thing, though. At this point it's not the direction the ending is headed that is frustrating, it's the journey that we're going through to get there. I'm not too upset that Arya got the killing blow, for example. I'm upset with how it happened. I'm not upset with the living winning the battle of Winterfell. I'm upset with how it happened.

    If these plot points were both to happen in the books, I would be willing to accept them if the events leading up to them were believable and interesting.

  20. #25380
    Quote Originally Posted by Frontenac View Post
    Still, that meager historical link between Aragorn and the Witch King was more than what Eowyn had. My point was that it is not necessary that a character had a relation with a villain to kill it. The fact the Witch King just killed Theoden was reason enough for Eowyn to intervene.
    No, a character doesn't need to have a relation with a villain to kill it. But it makes the story much better and more memorable if they do.

    Oh, I'm not so sure. It is pretty clear that Aragorn's mission is to confront Sauron and win back the throne of Gondor. And Aragorn is Sauron's main concern. He is the Heir of Isildur. When Aragorn confronts him when he uses the palantir from Orthanc, and shows to him the very blade that defeated him during the last war, Sauron is pretty sure that Aragorn has the Ring and that he will use it against him. In fact there is more history between Aragorn and Sauron than there is between Jon and the Night King. Jon wants to stop the WWs and the Night King, but there was no big target marked "Jon Snow's property" on the Night King's forehead. His main role has always been to assemble the most people possible to confront the WWs, but that does not mean that he was destined to personally kill him. At this point everyone was struggling to end the Night King.
    I think it's pretty clear that Sauron wouldn't be confronted unless he got the ring first and then Middle Earth stood no chance anyway. Aragorn's mission was always to assist the ring bearer. And he did that to the very end. Which is why the scene where he and his army charges the gates of Mordor is so fulfilling.

    And failed. Just like Jon Snow who tried to reach the Night King but failed at the godswood's gate.
    Yes Frodo failed. But then something better and a more symbolic thing happens. Gollum because of his greed and infatuation with the ring (something it uses to manipulate its bearers) falls to his death in order to get it. Those things become both Gollum's and the ring's downfall. Frodo's failure leads to an even better story. I really don't think Jon's failure leads to a better story.

    And here instead you have Arya succeeding where Jon failed. But then you will say "there's no story between Arya and the Night King." No there isn't, and like I said with Eowyn there's no need to be. Bran was her brother and she saved him. She saved her pack and her home. The assassin who learned her art in a death cult killed the king of the Undead. That's not so bad.
    I would aim for more than not so bad.

    Let me ask you this. Do you think that if you could ask Arya whether her character arc is done she would say yes? Hell no. Her aim has almost always been crossing everyone off her list. I think we can assume Cersei is the only one left. Her character arc is done when she is dead. Preferably with Arya killing her. So one of the main plot lines is ended with a character killing the NK without it fulling said character's arc. It just feels hollow.

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