1. #26121
    Quote Originally Posted by Thekri View Post
    They didn't rush it though. They took an additional year to do it, and they roughly quadrupled the budget. Season 8 has about triple the amount of time investments per episode as any of the others. Apparently they spent none of that time asking if any of this makes sense.
    I think they are rushing it with respect to run time. A full 10 episode season would have allowed time for war preparations and political plotting and backstory reveals. I would probably not have increased the budget significantly because I am assuming most of the cost is from the full episode battles. Scenes of characters at strategy tables and Bran in front of a tree don't cost very much.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Logwyn View Post
    The greed and stupidity of mankind is a great and ancient evil that is still alive and well on the show.
    They needed more backstory for the Night King to make him more than just "I'm evil. I kill all people." Otherwise he is just a plot device, which apparently is all he was. And after all these seasons, we still don't know why it matters who sits on the Iron Throne or if there really needs to be a ruler of all seven kingdoms. What is the plan for the eventual ruler after they gain the throne? How will life be better if Dany or Jon rules instead of Cersei?

  2. #26122
    Quote Originally Posted by Prokne View Post
    Scenes of characters at strategy tables and Bran in front of a tree don't cost very much.
    Strategy? Really?

  3. #26123
    Quote Originally Posted by Thekri View Post
    I don't think there is much point in holding on to that plot point. It is over, let it go. A lot of people had theories of Ned Stark coming back after Season 1. That probably won't happen either.

    Now GRR Martin was pretty clear this week that the books aren't going to end the same way as the show. Which is going to be pretty weird, but not surprising. There are a lot of ongoing plots in the book that are a lot different.
    Any source for GRRM's words on this matter? Not that I mistrust you or anything, I just remembered that the showrunners once said their ending would be broadly similar to the book's and would like to see what Martin's take is.

  4. #26124

  5. #26125
    The Lightbringer Thekri's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jastall View Post
    Any source for GRRM's words on this matter? Not that I mistrust you or anything, I just remembered that the showrunners once said their ending would be broadly similar to the book's and would like to see what Martin's take is.
    Here you go, here is one instance. He has been relatively vocal about not getting along to well with the people that wrote the later seasons. He hasn't explicitly acknowledged the existence of Season 8 yet, and reportedly never even read the scripts.

  6. #26126
    Scarab Lord crakerjack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Byuiso View Post
    I couldn't agree with you more.

    I feel like the Night King should have been the final fight. The show feels different knowing the great ancient evil is dead.

    I always liked how everyone was so focused on the Iron Throne when the Night King could careless who sits on the throne and will kill everyone regardless.

    They rushed this season at the great expense of quality unfortunately.
    I'm glad they did kill him off worst. There's nothing more typical in a fantasy world than for some ancient evil to be the typical main antagonist. Hell, the dude didn't have a single line and was dull. What did you really expect out of him? Ever since they aired the episode showcasing how he came to be, it was pretty evident this dude has no massive story. He's just a necromancer with an undead army, that's it. How is that more interesting than unpredictable humans with various motives and sabotage? The night king was a straight line, more linear than a CoD campaign. His one and only purpose was to wipe out life.
    Most likely the wisest Enhancement Shaman.

  7. #26127
    I mean he's not wrong. Season 8 has been the most disappointing season to a show I can think of (yes including TWD) and you can tell that lots of the cast, the diehard fanboys and D&D don't feel too great about it due to how insecure they are with negative reviews. They clearly rushed to finish the show and you can tell.

  8. #26128
    Season 8 isn't really Game of Thrones.

  9. #26129
    The Lightbringer Thekri's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by crakerjack View Post
    I'm glad they did kill him off worst. There's nothing more typical in a fantasy world than for some ancient evil to be the typical main antagonist. Hell, the dude didn't have a single line and was dull. What did you really expect out of him? Ever since they aired the episode showcasing how he came to be, it was pretty evident this dude has no massive story. He's just a necromancer with an undead army, that's it. How is that more interesting than unpredictable humans with various motives and sabotage? The night king was a straight line, more linear than a CoD campaign. His one and only purpose was to wipe out life.
    Agreed, but I really wish they had attempted to do something interesting with him. They completely created him for the show, and then didn't bother developing him at all. He was basically a cardboard cutout. In the books the White Walkers are an ancient and mysterious race with very alien and unknown motives. They serve as a constant and looming menace that threatens the entire world with ultimate destruction if humans don't get their act together. The show sort of tries this, but they staple the whole concept to a single flat character that dies to a knife. The function of the Night King is basically a kill switch on the entire zombie threat. The book White Walkers have no such weakness, and a lot more mystery behind them.

  10. #26130
    Quote Originally Posted by Thekri View Post
    Here you go, here is one instance. He has been relatively vocal about not getting along to well with the people that wrote the later seasons. He hasn't explicitly acknowledged the existence of Season 8 yet, and reportedly never even read the scripts.
    Thanks. He does says the major points will be the same, so I expect that the books will also feature the living being victorious over the dead and that the fate of the Iron Throne will be similar, whatever it is. But the article does make it look like the path there will be very different, which is fine honestly, I don't have too much of a problem with the story's major plot beats and concepts, and more with the execution.

    This all assumes GRRM ever actually finishes the damn books in the first place. Which may take even longer if he decides to change things so the show doesn't spoil them, ugh.

  11. #26131
    The Lightbringer Thekri's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jastall View Post
    Thanks. He does says the major points will be the same, so I expect that the books will also feature the living being victorious over the dead and that the fate of the Iron Throne will be similar, whatever it is. But the article does make it look like the path there will be very different, which is fine honestly, I don't have too much of a problem with the story's major plot beats and concepts, and more with the execution.

    This all assumes GRRM ever actually finishes the damn books in the first place. Which may take even longer if he decides to change things so the show doesn't spoil them, ugh.
    Well the path would have to be different because Martin has a lot more characters rolling around doing important stuff then the show does. He has a couple of important artifacts (Including one that can apparently hijack dragons), a completely different type of undead character and a lot more other things going on.

    Speaking of the other type of undead character, what was going on with the show's Uncle Benjin? The show explained absolutely nothing about him, they just used him as a deus ex machina in the back pocket of every Stark north of the wall. Was he supposed to still be alive? Why didn't he go back to the wall if so? In the books he is clearly either dead or permanently changed into something not quite human.

  12. #26132
    Quote Originally Posted by Nirn View Post
    It pained my eyes to watch the scene. Cersei could have wiped them all if she wanted. The sheer stupidity of the plot really shines at the moments like that.
    To be fair it kind of showed they thought about that as the dragon was off in the back, at least that's what I assume was the point, to be out of range of the scorpions. Still, considering how easily those scorpions nailed the dragons in the air from a boat, I'd still say where it was was in range but they at least thought about it and probably just wanted to show the dragon. As for killing Dany, that wouldn't really solve anything, Jon and the armies would still come. Cersei is kinda cruel and probably thinks she's going to win easily and wants to see Dany defeated with no army or friends left before killing her.

  13. #26133
    Quote Originally Posted by Jastall View Post
    Thanks. He does says the major points will be the same, so I expect that the books will also feature the living being victorious over the dead and that the fate of the Iron Throne will be similar, whatever it is. But the article does make it look like the path there will be very different, which is fine honestly, I don't have too much of a problem with the story's major plot beats and concepts, and more with the execution.

    This all assumes GRRM ever actually finishes the damn books in the first place. Which may take even longer if he decides to change things so the show doesn't spoil them, ugh.
    He said he'd never change a plot if someone guessed it, cba to find the quote but I'm sure google would find it easily

  14. #26134
    The Insane PACOX's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Isilrien View Post
    I'd take Jon over Dany even though he knows nothing. Show Dany was a bit better than book Dany, but not by much in my estimation.
    Sadly Jon has never tended to his leadership posts long enough for us to determine what kind of leader he'd be...except for an absent one.

  15. #26135
    Guys I just got on board with GoT a few weeks ago, if you could remain excited and enthusiastic about the show I'd appreciate it a lot.

  16. #26136
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Y'know, I'd take that more seriously if I were still waiting anxiously for the next book. But I'm not. The first couple books were great, but 3 and 4 were a massive slog, especially given that they both cover the same time period, just separating between the continents. And there's not a huge amount that happens, that really matters, at least. Everything up to the Red Wedding, in the books and the show, is gold. After that, it starts to flag, and you start realizing that while Martin had a start to a story, he had no idea where it was ending. It's funny to give a character all the hallmarks of the epic hero, and then murder them in the face in the first half of the first book; it knocks the reader off balance. The Red Wedding was a second hit. But continuing to knock the reader off balance isn't a story, and it doesn't go anywhere.

    GoT is basically Jackass: Fantasy Writer Edition. "Oooh, he's not gonna, HE'S NOT GONNA, OH MY GOD HE DID THE ABSOLUTE MADMAN". Repeat until bored because there's nothing else to it. It's a shame because that first half was great, it's just not sticking the landing, and you can't start a story with "everyone dies, brutally and without warning" and then tie it all off with a happy bow with everyone's story coming to a satisfying end.

    I think that's the biggest issue; between Ned Stark's death and the Red Wedding, the first season said "no one is safe, we don't care if you think they're awesome". And lately, the only people dying are minor characters, or secondary characters whose stories are done (and really, the last few episodes, that's Theon, and that's it). Killing a character after the conclusion of their arc is lazy; you don't want to bother with the character, so you off them. The deaths that MATTER to the audience are those where they've got a story we wanted to see and now we never will. That's why Ned and Rob's deaths mattered. And it's why none of the deaths in S8 have.

  17. #26137
    The Lightbringer Thekri's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PACOX View Post
    Sadly Jon has never tended to his leadership posts long enough for us to determine what kind of leader he'd be...except for an absent one.
    Yep, lol. His first reaction to every new position is promptly abandon it, then he comes back, gets promoted, then declares he doesn't want the job any more.

    Steward to Mormont? Nope, headed South to join Rob. Still Steward? Going North with Rangers now, sorry if you get murdered while I am gone. Lord Commander? Going to chill with my wildling bros, because I never learned what delegating is. Still Lord Commander, but murdered now? Fine, I quit (Ok, this one is pretty reasonable. When your subordinates murder you it is time to find a new job). King in the North? Nope, going south, then north, then quit being King.

    This is part of why I don't like the character of Jon. Everyone else props him up to a ridiculous degree, and he is given a ton of informed abilities we don't actually see. Everyone thinks he has potential, but most of his ideas are terrible. Everyone thinks he can lead for some reason, but he has never been able to actually lead anyone effectively, his subordinates are always revolting against him.

    And of course he has a bad case of being a genetic hero. Why exactly this matters isn't very clear, since a significant number of Targaryen's are absolute assholes. But the "Divine Right of Kings" schtick just won't die for some reason. Why we are still using Medieval propaganda as a plot device is really weird. You aren't qualified to lead anything because you came out of a royal vagina.

  18. #26138
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    Y'know, I'd take that more seriously if I were still waiting anxiously for the next book. But I'm not. The first couple books were great, but 3 and 4 were a massive slog, especially given that they both cover the same time period, just separating between the continents. And there's not a huge amount that happens, that really matters, at least. Everything up to the Red Wedding, in the books and the show, is gold. After that, it starts to flag, and you start realizing that while Martin had a start to a story, he had no idea where it was ending. It's funny to give a character all the hallmarks of the epic hero, and then murder them in the face in the first half of the first book; it knocks the reader off balance. The Red Wedding was a second hit. But continuing to knock the reader off balance isn't a story, and it doesn't go anywhere.

    GoT is basically Jackass: Fantasy Writer Edition. "Oooh, he's not gonna, HE'S NOT GONNA, OH MY GOD HE DID THE ABSOLUTE MADMAN". Repeat until bored because there's nothing else to it. It's a shame because that first half was great, it's just not sticking the landing, and you can't start a story with "everyone dies, brutally and without warning" and then tie it all off with a happy bow with everyone's story coming to a satisfying end.

    I think that's the biggest issue; between Ned Stark's death and the Red Wedding, the first season said "no one is safe, we don't care if you think they're awesome". And lately, the only people dying are minor characters, or secondary characters whose stories are done (and really, the last few episodes, that's Theon, and that's it). Killing a character after the conclusion of their arc is lazy; you don't want to bother with the character, so you off them. The deaths that MATTER to the audience are those where they've got a story we wanted to see and now we never will. That's why Ned and Rob's deaths mattered. And it's why none of the deaths in S8 have.
    The show AND the book both died with Tywin, and for how pretentious some book readers can be when it comes to them vs a movie, or a tv show, it's surprising how many don't accept that. Regardless of that, it's amazing how GRRM at his "meh" is still a dozen leagues above D&D when it comes to writing - and it absolutely shows after S6.

    Is this cool? Is this sudden and shocking? Any thought, but not "Does this make sense?" for those guys.
    *Insert every single ridiculous PC parts detail here that no one cares about*

  19. #26139
    The Lightbringer Thekri's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    Y'know, I'd take that more seriously if I were still waiting anxiously for the next book. But I'm not. The first couple books were great, but 3 and 4 were a massive slog, especially given that they both cover the same time period, just separating between the continents. And there's not a huge amount that happens, that really matters, at least. Everything up to the Red Wedding, in the books and the show, is gold. After that, it starts to flag, and you start realizing that while Martin had a start to a story, he had no idea where it was ending. It's funny to give a character all the hallmarks of the epic hero, and then murder them in the face in the first half of the first book; it knocks the reader off balance. The Red Wedding was a second hit. But continuing to knock the reader off balance isn't a story, and it doesn't go anywhere.

    GoT is basically Jackass: Fantasy Writer Edition. "Oooh, he's not gonna, HE'S NOT GONNA, OH MY GOD HE DID THE ABSOLUTE MADMAN". Repeat until bored because there's nothing else to it. It's a shame because that first half was great, it's just not sticking the landing, and you can't start a story with "everyone dies, brutally and without warning" and then tie it all off with a happy bow with everyone's story coming to a satisfying end.

    I think that's the biggest issue; between Ned Stark's death and the Red Wedding, the first season said "no one is safe, we don't care if you think they're awesome". And lately, the only people dying are minor characters, or secondary characters whose stories are done (and really, the last few episodes, that's Theon, and that's it). Killing a character after the conclusion of their arc is lazy; you don't want to bother with the character, so you off them. The deaths that MATTER to the audience are those where they've got a story we wanted to see and now we never will. That's why Ned and Rob's deaths mattered. And it's why none of the deaths in S8 have.
    I think this is exactly what is going on. Combine all that with the fact that the value of the IP has skyrocketed to the point where the creators (Which at this point is the show, since they are ahead of Martin) are scared to kill off main characters to avoid that exact problem of losing reader investment.

    But the first 5 seasons didn't seem to have any plot armor. Major characters died to intrigue all the time. Ned, Robert Baratheon, Rob Stark, Caitlyn, Twyin, the list goes on. But as time went on, you started to only expect major deaths in season finales. In fact, the show killed characters even more then the books did, with dozens of character deaths that weren't in the books. (For instance, Ser Barristan is still Dany's Hand in the books.)

    But in season eight, plot armor seems invincible. You know that the important characters won't die until their arcs are complete.

  20. #26140
    The Insane PACOX's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thekri View Post
    Agreed, but I really wish they had attempted to do something interesting with him. They completely created him for the show, and then didn't bother developing him at all. He was basically a cardboard cutout. In the books the White Walkers are an ancient and mysterious race with very alien and unknown motives. They serve as a constant and looming menace that threatens the entire world with ultimate destruction if humans don't get their act together. The show sort of tries this, but they staple the whole concept to a single flat character that dies to a knife. The function of the Night King is basically a kill switch on the entire zombie threat. The book White Walkers have no such weakness, and a lot more mystery behind them.
    Notice how they got rid of most of their. CGI budget in the last two episodes. Wights are dead. Ghost is sent off to Narnia. Two dragons gone. All assets that cost a ton of money to put on screen.

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    Does Cersei still have wild fire?

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