[TV/Books] Game of Thrones ***SPOILER Discussion***

[Veggie50]

No, you used a personal insult twice. I've reported it and moved on, I'll let the mods do their work.

If someone resorts to personal insults, the discussion is over - that's my policy.

"you are wrong" is not an insult.

[Puupi]

"you are wrong" is not an insult.

That's not what you said.

I am sorry to hear you cannot cope with a thought experiment. I believe this speaks more to your limitations then to the quality of the argument.

This is what you said.

Have a nice day.

[Ihavewaffles]

Ghost's revenge

[Super Kami Dende]

I wasn’t being glib when I said “canon” is a fanmade idea. Before the late 90’s it didn’t even exist as a concept.

Canon has been a concept since the Bible was written. Literally called Biblical Canon to differentiate between "true" scripture and false.

[Mehrunes]

hmm...http://www.msn.com/en-us/tv/news/jes...9ps?ocid=ientp

What a fucking stupid argument. Having a woman be victimized and growing mentally stronger in reaction to what she's been through doesn't mean that a woman has to go through that and that it's the only way. She's arguing against her own straw-man there. And her saying that rape is not a tool to make a character stronger is explicitly false, because she is literally arguing about a case when that has happened. She should have said that it shouldn't be used as such a tool. But in that (accurate) case she has no right to dictate to authors what tools they use or not to make their characters grow so she can fuck off anyway. Also, Sansa didn't even specify that it was rape alone that made her stronger.

[Puupi]

What a fucking stupid argument. Having a woman be victimized and growing mentally stronger in reaction to what she's been through doesn't mean that a woman has to go through that and that it's the only way. She's arguing against her own straw-man there. And her saying that rape is not a tool to make a character stronger is explicitly false, because she is literally arguing about a case when that has happened. She should have said that it shouldn't be used as such a tool. But in that (accurate) case she has no right to dictate to authors what tools they use or not to make their characters grow so she can fuck off anyway. Also, Sansa didn't even specify that it was rape alone that made her stronger.

Yeah it's a completely retarded argument. The stupidity of her argument and agenda is highlighted by her not mentioning Theon Greyjoy at all.

[Gabriel]

"I'm not going to say goodbye to the dog that grew up with me my entire life when I will never see him again because God will send him to see me before the end"
That is what your saying.
Do you understand how stupid that sounds?

I was explaining the showrunners' reasoning for Jon not saying goodbye to Ghost.

[La]

If you need to use time travel as an example you should know your whole argument isn't on quite a solid ground.

Being first definitely means something is "original". You can then argue whether it is better, worse, right or wrong.

Also, as GRRM has given an outline for the show producers about the storyline - if he eventually deviates from that storyline in his books, he is revisioning his own original story and the TV show's original story as well.

So you're saying that an author known for writing things and then completely going back and changing them, due to the amount of details he puts into the entire world, would not give his basic outline for how he MIGHT end it, despite the fact he may change it? Despite the fact that D&D can also change it. And you're saying that because he doesn't own the rights to it like those, the author who penned ASOIAF would be writing a fan-fiction to his own work? Despite the fact that the majority of people only consider what is canon what is written by the original author in a book and not as it is translated by others? Sure. If he specifically says so, but if he doesn't, then no.

[Gorsameth]

I was explaining the showrunners' reasoning for Jon not saying goodbye to Ghost.

And for it to be even remotely decent writing it has to make sense for the character.
And it doesn't.
Which is why so many people are complaining that the writing is shit.

What your talking about here is a major problem that GoT is having. They want to arrive at certain set pieces so they will simply do things that get to that set piece, no matter how out of character it is for the people they have been building up for 7 seasons or how illogical it all seems.

[Mehrunes]

I remember people in this thread claiming it wasn't rape the night of the episode, to justify the shit writing. So......?

Unless she was one of those people I don't get what argument are you making here. Also, no one was really claiming that to justify the shit writing.

[rogueMatthias]

lol omg I've been reading up on the leaks for the next two episodes. It seems like enough's been confirmed now that people have a good idea of how it will end.

God the ending just sounds like trash. I hope that they've just been filming a LOT of stuff as distraction and fake leaks because if it's all real this is going to piss off their entire fanbase.

Honestly, after this season so far, I'm kind of dreading the next episodes rather than looking forward to them.

[Mehrunes]

There's also that these things are allegorical. The Night King is an elemental force of nature. That's how he's presented; he is Winter. It isn't that winter comes, and he takes advantage, the description was always as if he were the one drawing that veil Southward. He was created by the Children of the Forest (creatures tied directly to nature) as a weapon against the First Men; nature rising up to swallow them.

That's an engaging story, and a worthy subject to tackle.

It becomes astonishingly stupid when the resolution turns out to be "hey, has, like, anyone tried to stab this guy, at any time, in the last few thousand years?"

It's even more stupid in light of this not being the first time the White Walkers marched south. And in the previous Long Night they were defeated. If the entire threat ends with the Night King, how are there even still White Walkers? Because the Night King isn't really one to retreat. Why would he, when he can just raise his hands and re-raise his army and anyone else that was killed by them whenever he wants (and kill anyone with homing ice spears)? So it doesn't make much sense that the people that solved the White Walker problem the last time managed to do so without killing him. And, consequently, his entire army. What, did they put him in a box and fedexed him to the Land of Always Winter hoping he wouldn't return? Or did he kill everyone in Westeros and it was repopulated by people from islands?

[Kolvarg]

Also, as GRRM has given an outline for the show producers about the storyline - if he eventually deviates from that storyline in his books, he is revisioning his own original story and the TV show's original story as well.

You are assuming the show producers are still following that outline. Do we actually know that's true?

It's true that GRRM gave them an outline on how things go, but that was years ago and as far as I know there's nothing stopping the producers from taking as many "artistic liberties" as they want. I mean they were already ignoring parts and changing others before they even got ahead of the books.

[crusadernero]

It's even more stupid in light of this not being the first time the White Walkers marched south. And in the previous Long Night they were defeated. If the entire threat ends with the Night King, how are there even still White Walkers? Because the Night King isn't really one to retreat. Why would he, when he can just raise his hands and re-raise his army and anyone else that was killed by them whenever he wants (and kill anyone with homing ice spears)? So it doesn't make much sense that the people that solved the White Walker problem the last time managed to do so without killing him. And, consequently, his entire army. What, did they put him in a box and fedexed him to the Land of Always Winter hoping he wouldn't return? Or did he kill everyone in Westeros and it was repopulated by people from islands?

They probably cut it short and made a WOW ending just so we all will flock around the prequel. Thats about the NK and children of the forest I believe.

This whole show really ended for me in S8 E3. Unless the last two episodes are great, my GoT show ended in episode 3. To have a treat that has lived for thousands of years, were they buildt a ridicoulus big wall to keep them out, just be ended so quickly is weird. I mean, the NK didnt reach further south than Winterfell. All those scenes, all that dialoge, everything that buildt up the NK and the dead, just swosh done with 1 stab.

Honestly, it will be the same if Dany/jon and theyre army beats Cercei in episode 5. Theres nothing to say they will military wise. Some weird plot has been created for her to go down.

With all the great warriors and magic in that world, and no one has ever been able to kill him? After all, they only needed to stab him once.

And as you said - if every undead & WW dies when NK was killed, what happend the last time?

[Puupi]

You are assuming the show producers are still following that outline. Do we actually know that's true?

It's true that GRRM gave them an outline on how things go, but that was years ago and as far as I know there's nothing stopping the producers from taking as many "artistic liberties" as they want. I mean they were already ignoring parts and changing others before they even got ahead of the books.

Which emphasizes the fact that the story of ASOIAF is no longer in the hands of GRRM. D&D&co decided how the saga ends. If GRRM somehow finishes the books some day and the story is different it would be the same if George Lucas released his Star Wars episode 7, 8 and 9 some day - too late, Disney already did that.

EDIT: If GRRM's story would be the same as the TV show story, then the situation would be different. Then his books would be just expanded and more thorough representations of the same story. However, we know that isn't true as the TV show and the book saga have already diverged in a massive way.

[Mteq]

Do you want a few words at the bottom of the screen telling you how much time has passed or an entire episode of people riding on a horse?

that's a bit strong, but scenes where people go on the boat, of the boat, some mid travel conversation, you know, the stuff they did do before. it was just hard cuts from one location to another. ofcourse, such a travel scene is completely filler but it does serve a purpose.

[Gabriel]

It's even more stupid in light of this not being the first time the White Walkers marched south. And in the previous Long Night they were defeated. If the entire threat ends with the Night King, how are there even still White Walkers? Because the Night King isn't really one to retreat. Why would he, when he can just raise his hands and re-raise his army and anyone else that was killed by them whenever he wants (and kill anyone with homing ice spears)? So it doesn't make much sense that the people that solved the White Walker problem the last time managed to do so without killing him. And, consequently, his entire army. What, did they put him in a box and fedexed him to the Land of Always Winter hoping he wouldn't return? Or did he kill everyone in Westeros and it was repopulated by people from islands?

My guess is that the Night King as he is in the show(the first white walker) doesn't exist in the books at all. There have been several different Night Kings in the books.

[Scrod]

Arya could just sneak into King's Landing and kill Cersei with ease. Stop with all this "army" and "battle" nonsense.

That’s the thing here. Daenerys has:

Arya
Varys and what’s left of his little birds
Soldiers experienced at infiltrating a city and fomenting rebellion

And she’s asking like she has no options but to attack.

[Kolvarg]

Which emphasizes the fact that the story of ASOIAF is no longer in the hands of GRRM. D&D&co decided how the saga ends. If GRRM somehow finishes the books some day and the story is different it would be the same if George Lucas released his Star Wars episode 7, 8 and 9 some day - too late, Disney already did that.

EDIT: If GRRM's story would be the same as the TV show story, then the situation would be different. Then his books would be just expanded and more thorough representations of the same story. However, we know that isn't true as the TV show and the book saga have already diverged in a massive way.

I don't think it's fair to compare it to Star Wars. Star Wars were already movies in the first place, which is not the case here.

The show ultimately is not ASOIAF. It's Game of Thrones, a tv-series based on ASOIAF, even if it ended up getting ahead of it chronologically. If GRRM had sold the complete IP rights and D&D had written the last 2 books (which I believe would be the actual direct comparison to Star Wars), that would be an entirely different case.

Obviously I don't know the exact legal details of what rights exactly GRRM sold to them, but I think it's not hard to imagine that the majority of people would agree that either the books will be canon, or at least that the books and the show are two very different things, and each has their own canon.

[Gabriel]

They probably cut it short and made a WOW ending just so we all will flock around the prequel. Thats about the NK and children of the forest I believe.

This whole show really ended for me in S8 E3. Unless the last two episodes are great, my GoT show ended in episode 3. To have a treat that has lived for thousands of years, were they buildt a ridicoulus big wall to keep them out, just be ended so quickly is weird. I mean, the NK didnt reach further south than Winterfell. All those scenes, all that dialoge, everything that buildt up the NK and the dead, just swosh done with 1 stab.

Honestly, it will be the same if Dany/jon and theyre army beats Cercei in episode 5. Theres nothing to say they will military wise. Some weird plot has been created for her to go down.

With all the great warriors and magic in that world, and no one has ever been able to kill him? After all, they only needed to stab him once.

And as you said - if every undead & WW dies when NK was killed, what happend the last time?

Maybe the Night King didn't come south of the wall at all, and the invading force was only wights.