1. #26501
    Anung un Rama Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jastall View Post
    I mean, everyone has been butchering their way through the story. Even complete goody two-shoes like Jon executed prisoners and hanged kids. Sansa had a guy torn apart by hounds and plays everyone around her. Let's not get started on Arya who was this close to becoming a remorseless murderer, or well liked characters like Jaime or Sandor who are remorseless murderers. Dany went from a warlord's brood mare to a contender for the throne, and there's no world where one does that without killing a lot of people in their way.

    Dany is more ruthless than most, and I'm no big fan of hers nor do I want her on the throne (I want that stupid chair melted, personally). She did execute people in an over the top way, but disobedience in Westeros IS punished by swift death, even by overall nice dudes like Robb. I don't think she has been exceptionally violent or irrational so far compared to most other characters. Albeit if the episode 5 leaks are true that will soon change because the season requires some last minute melodrama.
    It's more that my issue is that everyone seems to agree that Cersei is the absolute worst, and that Dany is some shining beacon of goodness.

    They really are not much different from each other. And I'm not trying to argue that Cersei is fine; I'm making the case that there aren't any "good guys", in this fight. It's a matter of how awful they might be, and more importantly IMO, how eager they are to be awful. Because Daenerys is constantly being urged to hold back her impulses by those who advise her. Without Varys, Missandei, and Tyrion, she'd be far, far worse.

  2. #26502
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    It's more that my issue is that everyone seems to agree that Cersei is the absolute worst, and that Dany is some shining beacon of goodness.

    They really are not much different from each other. And I'm not trying to argue that Cersei is fine; I'm making the case that there aren't any "good guys", in this fight. It's a matter of how awful they might be, and more importantly IMO, how eager they are to be awful. Because Daenerys is constantly being urged to hold back her impulses by those who advise her. Without Varys, Missandei, and Tyrion, she'd be far, far worse.
    Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely.
    That's why anyone with power needs people around them to keep them grounded.
    It ignores such insignificant forces as time, entropy, and death

  3. #26503
    Quote Originally Posted by Jastall View Post
    I mean, everyone has been butchering their way through the story. Even complete goody two-shoes like Jon executed prisoners and hanged kids. Sansa had a guy torn apart by hounds and plays everyone around her. Let's not get started on Arya who was this close to becoming a remorseless murderer, or well liked characters like Jaime or Sandor who are remorseless murderers. Dany went from a warlord's brood mare to a contender for the throne, and there's no world where one does that without killing a lot of people in their way.

    Dany is more ruthless than most, and I'm no big fan of hers nor do I want her on the throne (I want that stupid chair melted, personally). She did execute people in an over the top way, but disobedience in Westeros IS punished by swift death, even by overall nice dudes like Robb. I don't think she has been exceptionally violent or irrational so far compared to most other characters. Albeit if the episode 5 leaks are true that will soon change because the season requires some last minute melodrama.
    I don't think she's exceptionally violent. But she skirts the edges.

    People forget, freeing the cities of Slaver's Bay wasn't the plan. Her plan was to buy the Unsullied, who, btw, she stole, since she ended up taking the dragon that was the payment back. All the slaves she freed aren't part of her army, only the Dothraki and the Unsullied were. Her ego, though, demanded these cities be subjugated, and the slaves freed, and the audience cheered for it because slavery is vile to our 21st century ideals. One thing the books did better (out of many things) than the show was show that the freed slaves were no better off under Dany than they were before. So Dany basically slaughtered thousands (of admittedly shitty people) on a power trip, but did nothing to actually improve those cities. That's what the whole Sons of the Harpy storyline was about. And for her idiocy, she lost Selmy Barristan and Strong Belwas.

    In fact, those cities will probably fall back into slavery almost instantly.

    Then, she doesn't follow the general "rules" of Westerosi warfare, which involves taking lords and their heirs hostage and treating them as guests. That's why Robb held Jaime Lannister after the Whispering Wood, that's why Balon Greyjoy lived after his insurrection and his son and heir Theon was taken to Winterfell as a ward, a genteel way of saying a noble hostage. That's why Cat took Tyrion instead of instantly killing him. That's why Trial by Combat even exists.

    Dany continually displays an utter disregard for the small (or sometimes even major) rituals and customs of the people. It's her way or the highway, regardless if it keeps the peace or not. That's what the whole fighting pit in Mereen storyline was about. She's not a good conqueror, because half of conquering is allowing the conquered to hold on to something of their own. There are real world analogues to this, like the HRE, Alexander the Great's conquests, or the Mughals in India - once the slaughter was over, those countries were still allowed to follow what they wanted to follow, while the empires that ran them basically just exerted monetary control. This is like, the whole point of A Feast For Crows, which is why it's the least popular book among people who want the political scheming and spectacle, but really is a gem of a book in other regards.

    I don't think Dany's been particularly out of line in the violence. But I think she's gonna burn KL this weekend, and the set up has been there for it, because she's always been right on the edge, and it's always been her advisers holding her back. I anticipate that Dany-fans will be super outraged by it, but like all the shallow analysis that seems to pervade this show, it won't be out of line at all.

    The writing will still probably suck though.

  4. #26504
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    It's more that my issue is that everyone seems to agree that Cersei is the absolute worst, and that Dany is some shining beacon of goodness.

    They really are not much different from each other. And I'm not trying to argue that Cersei is fine; I'm making the case that there aren't any "good guys", in this fight. It's a matter of how awful they might be, and more importantly IMO, how eager they are to be awful. Because Daenerys is constantly being urged to hold back her impulses by those who advise her. Without Varys, Missandei, and Tyrion, she'd be far, far worse.
    I'm not disputing Dany's flaws too much, but I dispute that there isn't much difference between her and Cercei, who is a sadistic monster while Dany is just ruthless and overly determined. Her biggest flaw in Westeros is being a complete stranger to its customs, and unlike Aegon I not having studied the continent before invading it resulting in several poor decisions on her part. She won't be an ideal Queen by any means, but she's still going to be much better than Jon who is Ned with the serial numbers filed off. Assuming again that the Throne is still in one piece which I both doubt and don't want it to.

    As for her advisors, they do rein her in, but let's be honest they hobbled her also. Tyrion in particular has been a walking, talking disaster since season 7, pretty much every plan he made ended up costing Dany more than what she gained. So her throwing his advice to the wind at this point is hardly senseless, and TBH another monarch would have dismissed, if not punished him along ago. Had Dany flown right to King's Landing and burned the Red Keep the war in the South would have been over very fast. Plus every potential monarch we've seen needed advisors around to not do something rash, at least she mostly listens to them unlike Joff or Robb.

  5. #26505
    Well, making Tyrion a walking, talking disaster is on the shitty writing. It's been pointed out that Tyrion, per his character, has no reason to believe the things he does or make the bad plans he plans, except the writers can't figure out how to write a brilliant person who still fails anyways. They needed to make him dumb, to justify Dany ditching his advice when he inevitably tells her (and in fact has already told her this past episode) not to burn the civilians inside the walls of the Red Keep.

  6. #26506
    Quote Originally Posted by eschatological View Post
    Well, making Tyrion a walking, talking disaster is on the shitty writing. It's been pointed out that Tyrion, per his character, has no reason to believe the things he does or make the bad plans he plans, except the writers can't figure out how to write a brilliant person who still fails anyways. They needed to make him dumb, to justify Dany ditching his advice when he inevitably tells her (and in fact has already told her this past episode) not to burn the civilians inside the walls of the Red Keep.
    The only real mistake Tyrion has made with regards to judgement is in terms of Cersei. People, even the most brilliant of us, tend to have blindspots with family. That doesn’t make someone dumb, just human.
    Quote Originally Posted by Shalcker View Post
    Got to earn his turnips.

  7. #26507
    Quote Originally Posted by Vegas82 View Post
    The only real mistake Tyrion has made with regards to judgement is in terms of Cersei. People, even the most brilliant of us, tend to have blindspots with family. That doesn’t make someone dumb, just human.
    I mean, it was his plan that got Viserion killed, his plan to have the dragonpit meeting in the first place, his plan that got the fleet mostly destroyed the first time and got Yara captured, etc, etc, etc.

    Tyrion's plans have all largely failed since he spent all that time in a crate escaping King's Landing.

  8. #26508
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    Daenerys has been slaughtering her way to the throne since she walked out of the fire with baby dragons. Anyone who gets in her way, she kills, most often by burning them alive.

    It has nothing to do with taking the throne back for the Targaryens; if it did, Jon's lineage wouldn't have been a threat and she could have supported his (better) claim on the throne.

    It has nothing to do with "breaking the wheel"; the ONLY times she's saved the downtrodden, it was so that they would owe her, and serve her. She's not breaking the wheel, she's just replacing the person at the top, with herself.

    The entire path of Daenerys has been about seeking personal power and slaughtering any and all who stand in her way. If you thought she was "the good guy", you haven't been paying attention. She and Cersei are two peas in a nasty little pod. They're both pro-incest. They're both blonde (usually irrelevant, but it stands out here). They're both willing to kill to seize/maintain power. They both lose their shit when their kids are threatened. They both make bold statements by burning enemies alive. They both have their family members killed when they get in the way.

    They're practically the same character. The biggest difference is that Dany's "children" are much more useful than Cersei's ever were. Also, Cersei's managed to seize and hold power all by herself, whereas Dany is entirely reliant on her dragons. No dragons, and she's the pretty blonde girl nobody bothers to listen to, again. She doesn't have any mind for tactics or statecraft, why would she ever make a decent ruler?
    Perhaps I'm remembering incorrectly but I thought that some element of Dany freeing the slaves in Slaver's Bay was driven by empathy rather than a desire to gain power, that her move was a significant step backwards from the throne. If she was merely motivated by personal power then she could have simply worked with the slavers, who would have done a much better job of maintaining economic stability in the region and creating more Unsullied for Dany's army. I do see the similarities between Dany and Cersei but I don't think it's accurate to say that they are the same person. Cersei is far less selfless and far more likely to turn against those who are supposed to be serving her, she treats them as pawns in a game. Dany's overreactions have been due to loyalty and morality, sans burning the Tullys. She is far more emotionally invested in those around her and Cersei is far more cold and cunning. The show is revealing that both are faults.

  9. #26509
    Quote Originally Posted by eschatological View Post
    I mean, it was his plan that got Viserion killed, his plan to have the dragonpit meeting in the first place, his plan that got the fleet mostly destroyed the first time and got Yara captured, etc, etc, etc.

    Tyrion's plans have all largely failed since he spent all that time in a crate escaping King's Landing.
    I ask myself how their plans are constantly getting leaked though.

    Who told Euron when and where Dany will be going with her Dragons and the unsullied after they left the north?

    It's like fog of war doesn't even exist in this universe. The level of intel anyone there (except of course the "good" guys) has is some next level CIA shit.

  10. #26510
    Quote Originally Posted by StayTuned View Post
    I ask myself how their plans are constantly getting leaked though.

    Who told Euron when and where Dany will be going with her Dragons and the unsullied after they left the north?

    It's like fog of war doesn't even exist in this universe. The level of intel anyone there (except of course the "good" guys) has is some next level CIA shit.
    Any old spy can see an army getting on ships and Dragonstone is a fortresss at the mouth of the way to King's Landing. Any army seeking to get to the capital by boat has to pass by it.
    It ignores such insignificant forces as time, entropy, and death

  11. #26511
    Quote Originally Posted by Isilrien View Post
    Finally SOMEONE notices the astrolabe. I was beginning to think I was crazy for seeing four dragons there and being ignored when I asked for people's thoughts.
    Pretty sure it's just Dany being represented as the mommy dragon with her 3 dragon children.
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    Close, but no cigar. The lesson is "Green Jesus knows the way, infidel."

  12. #26512
    not sure if posted


  13. #26513
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    They're both blonde
    https://yarn.co/yarn-clip/61772341-8...XliXOSmhV.copy


    Made me think of this moment lol.
    READ and be less Ignorant.

  14. #26514
    Quote Originally Posted by Spike` View Post
    not sure if posted
    Ofcourse the actors can see the stupid things that are happening to their characters and the story in general. But that don't have any say in that usually.
    its pretty obvious that the writing on GoT is not a big collaborate effort because of how obvious the flaws are.

    There is no way people didn't see them while filming it.
    It ignores such insignificant forces as time, entropy, and death

  15. #26515
    The Patient
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    Quote Originally Posted by Isilrien View Post
    Some of the writing was coherent because it followed the previous character and plot development. However, and this is merely a difference in opinion which is bound to happen with subjective works, the show hasn't been entirely coherent. I do not agree that Brienne should have spent the night with Tormund, for example, but that the love that blossomed between her and Jaime makes more sense. I don't think you know Brienne very well if you think Jaime's encouragement to give Tormund a chance would work with her. She has little respect for or interest for him throughout the show. Granted, I like Tormund a great deal and so would like to see him happy, but my feelings have no bearing on how the relationships are actually developed and then portrayed in the show. I don't see Brienne's reaction to Jaime as akin to that of a teenager, either. It made sense to me, as did the developing love between Jaime and Brienne. I think the episodes are rushed, and so the timing is off and even awkward between the two, but that's the only criticism I might level against these particular events.

    To each their own, as usual :-)
    Ooh of course - all opinion. And I agree with some of your points on the negatives of Thorn/Bri hookup.

    I just also don't buy into the "aww its love" just because Jamie took her virginity and they started having sex. I don't get that from this relationship at all.

    Because I don't forget Jamie's fatal flaw is his love/devotion to his Sister. What he told Bri when he left was ALSO true - even if he may be going to take his sister out himself (which I don't feel will be 'good writing' unless its in a 'no way out' situation/mercy kill). When I saw Jamie walking back after Bri admitted to being a virgin - him just starting to strip - assuming she's going to "want" this - I saw the earlier Jamie. I saw the Charming Player, already believing/assuming he's the best possible bed option among the choices, going to "give this to her." As it were. I don't believe the writing if its trying to portray this as now a portrayal of some deeper love (If that is what they were trying to do). No, his motives/intentions weren't as "bad" as what I said above - because they are friends - but I didn't see that as Jamie being in love either.

    A deep trust and friendship - sure. But LOVE Romantic LOVE - that's what I don't buy. Not yet in their relationship anyway - and with the show about to be over, that's all they're gonna get.(lol)

    And while no, a simple conversation from Jamie shouldn't be enough to convince Bri - not at all. But in the setup of the scene as written - with the idea that "ok Bri's sleepin with someone tonight!" from the writers - its just as good "logic" to me as her agreeing to sleep with Jamie.

    I loved him knighting her - that was solid, that made sense and was especially touching given their friendship and the respect each has earned from the rest. To follow-up with how this sex scene played out between them - to me - just another example of good/bad writing. Started strong - but then wimped out with soap-opera writing.

    But yea - all opinions . It certainly doesn't bug me half as much as other examples of truly bad writing this season/last season.

    It more...bugs me (?)... that so many people think just because this woman is crying they just throw it all out as "oh now she's all love-sick female needing her man... bad writing.." To me that reflects more on the viewer experience and opinions rather than the actual portrayal of what happened in that scene (given her actual character history) - and so many people jumping to that conclusion strikes me as sad... for humanity in general. heh.
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  16. #26516
    Quote Originally Posted by Gorsameth View Post
    Any old spy can see an army getting on ships and Dragonstone is a fortresss at the mouth of the way to King's Landing. Any army seeking to get to the capital by boat has to pass by it.
    They had Varys. Who has better intel than ANYONE else and yet since he's been with Dany, he was essentially useless.

    "Any old spy" really doesn't sound like Cersei should have the upper hand here in terms of intel. Unless it was Varys himself who set it in motion I'm calling bullshit. Or unless they would let Euron sit for months at the same spot awaiting them based on some sort of suspicion - which again sounds like a stretch from a tactical point of view.

    I also have no idea or even just a feeling how much time passed since NK battle and the parley....

  17. #26517
    I don't know if anyone has linked this yet, but this is a pretty good explanation of why episode 3 sucked to such an extent. This is how it should have happened.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EA5mJRFaI8c
    When challenging a Kzin, a simple scream of rage is sufficient. You scream and you leap.

    Quote Originally Posted by George Carlin
    Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are stupider than that.
    Brexophilia: The act of rubbing yourself against dead political ideas for sexual pleasure.

  18. #26518
    Quote Originally Posted by eschatological View Post
    Dany slowly going mad and Arya heading south to to presumably try and assassinate Cersei are literally the only things that made "sense" in the episode last week. I put "sense" in quotations because Arya's plotline only makes sense in light of the skillset and ability she's been given in the show apropos of nothing.
    In the end I don't think Arya will get a chance at assassinating Cersei , her and Sandor moving south is probably to kill the mountain Cersei is reserved to either Targaryen forces or Jaime himself

  19. #26519
    Quote Originally Posted by Huehuecoyotl View Post
    I don't know if anyone has linked this yet, but this is a pretty good explanation of why episode 3 sucked to such an extent. This is how it should have happened.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EA5mJRFaI8c
    One of the comments has a pretty genius idea; a dragonglass earring for every soldier. Nobody can be raised. I'd have loved to see the look on the NK's face after that one.

  20. #26520
    The Lightbringer Thekri's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by StayTuned View Post
    They had Varys. Who has better intel than ANYONE else and yet since he's been with Dany, he was essentially useless.

    "Any old spy" really doesn't sound like Cersei should have the upper hand here in terms of intel. Unless it was Varys himself who set it in motion I'm calling bullshit. Or unless they would let Euron sit for months at the same spot awaiting them based on some sort of suspicion - which again sounds like a stretch from a tactical point of view.
    The writers clearly made the decision that situational awareness detracts from the drama, so no characters have any idea what is going on anywhere they aren't standing. Varys basically traffics in gossip, not army and fleet movements apparently. I think the actual bigger issue is that the show writers have no idea how to write a scheming character, something that is very central to Martin's work. All the "schemers" that are left have done nothing actually in line with a consistent agenda for several seasons now. Instead they are all scheming for the sake of Scheming.

    Sansa keeps harming her own interests with ridicoulously petty plots, the first one of which got her brother killed when she decided telling Jon about the Army of the Vale wasn't important. "Hey Jon, one of the most powerful armies on the continent will be here tomorrow morning to join us, maybe we should wait and attack with them". Fortunately literally nobody misses Rickon, and he is never mentioned again.

    Varys used to have big overarching schemes that spanned decades, now he hears of an unverified claim to the throne, and immediately decides it is Murder O'clock. Seriously, think about how flimsy the evidence he has is. Tyrion told him that Sansa told him, that Jon told her, that Sam told him that he had a claim to the throne. Literally any of those people in that chain could be lying, but Varys takes it as gospel. It never occurs to him that Tyrion could be lying to him because he is a scheming bastard. Or Sansa could be lying to Tyrion for obvious reason. Or that Jon or Sam could be lying, for equally obvious reasons. Instead he decides to kill the girl he has been grooming for the crown for her whole life. Instead of trying to fix the obvious issues.

    I also have no idea or even just a feeling how much time passed since NK battle and the parley....
    Time flows differently in the Quantum Realm. And the Seven Kingdoms.

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