1. #27321
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    Like I've said multiple times, time and again Daenerys herself has challenged this perspective you have of her. You've ignored those elements, because they challenged the image of the character you wanted her to be.

    Back in Season 2, she was threatening to burn cities to the ground for daring to stand against her. You can't cry foul that she actually follows through on that in Season 8, and you certainly can't claim it wasn't foreshadowed.
    She also decided not to show mercy in Mareen and executed the guy who did the thing (I forgot what it was) against the advice of those close to her, and she crucified a bunch of masters. She's always had a nasty streak that she's done her best to tamp down.

  2. #27322
    Not sure if you guys are jumping off the bandwagon or jumping on...

  3. #27323
    If the leaks I saw are correct. A Bran/Tyrion combo would be the most logical option and the best case scenario for Westeros. Think about it....probably one of the most competent rulers left in the 7 kingdoms and a kid who knows literally everything

  4. #27324
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    Like I've said multiple times, time and again Daenerys herself has challenged this perspective you have of her. You've ignored those elements, because they challenged the image of the character you wanted her to be.

    Back in Season 2, she was threatening to burn cities to the ground for daring to stand against her. You can't cry foul that she actually follows through on that in Season 8, and you certainly can't claim it wasn't foreshadowed.

    And if you want a really obvious fairly recent variation on the same theme, when she burned the Tarlys to ash. There was no cause for that. That was not justice. That was a horrible, heinous death, served out solely because they stood against her, even though they had been defeated and could not fight back any more. It's awful not just in that she killed them, but in how she killed them. Burning alive is a horrible death. But one Daenerys Stormborn is incredibly fond of.
    She's a big fan of brutal deaths; Slowly suffocating; hanging out to starve/bleed to death/picked to death by crows or her personal favourite burning alive

  5. #27325
    Brutality in a world that's brutal...some of you guys are trying to now impose your own sense of justice in such a world. That's just pathetic.

  6. #27326
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    And seriously; I'm not saying her arc is perfectly written. It's lazy and hamfisted, because they're rushing this season (and arguably last season too).

    But the turn last episode was where they have been taking her, this entire time, and that's been in the air since Season 2 or so. It isn't out of nowhere; it's the culmination of her entire arc. Those of you shocked by this are like Tyrion, who put their trust in the wrong leader. The rest of us are Varys, and kept ourselves objective, rather than blindly backing that one choice.

  7. #27327
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowferal View Post
    Brutality in a world that's brutal...some of you guys are trying to now impose your own sense of justice in such a world. That's just pathetic.
    I'm just agreeing with Endus that her burning King's Landing isn't at all out of character for Dany when you look at the whole picture. Dunno if you were talking to me, though.

  8. #27328
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowferal View Post
    Brutality in a world that's brutal...some of you guys are trying to now impose your own sense of justice in such a world. That's just pathetic.
    GoT doesn't exist in a vacuum. This world is the only audience that the content has, and it's this world that it speaks to. Like all fiction. It doesn't exist separately from its audience.

  9. #27329
    So, what are people thinking is going to happen with the Unsullied and Dothraki? You cant just kill Danny w/o some plan for them and Drogon.
    READ and be less Ignorant.

  10. #27330
    Quote Originally Posted by Dacien View Post
    I'm just agreeing with Endus that her burning King's Landing isn't at all out of character for Dany when you look at the whole picture. Dunno if you were talking to me, though.
    It's not out of character...if there was justification.
    I'm looking at previuos events, Astapor, Mereen...when she was going to Astapor she didn't want slave soldiers for the fact that they were indeed just that; slaves. All the writing before always lent her that sense of justice, and more so a just rulership, so much so that the cynical SOB Tyrion believed it.
    Now she went from that to...what you have now. Why the hell is anyone trying to rationalize this a good writing? Is there anyone going to answer that?

  11. #27331
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by IIamaKing View Post
    So, what are people thinking is going to happen with the Unsullied and Dothraki? You cant just kill Danny w/o some plan for them and Drogon.
    For Drogon, if the Targaryen blood holds strong in Jon, he could likely keep him under control, assuming he survives. If not, they've already shown they can kill dragons.

    For the Unsullied, they'll probably go back to Essos. If they're kind, they'll take the Dothraki with them. If not, the Dothraki will either give up their ways and integrate with Westeros (they'll be without any Khals, so such a move is at least possible), or they'll likely get stuck being bandits or, more likely, killed off. There's a chance the Unsullied will stick around to establish themselves in Westeros, given the scale of death in the land, but I wouldn't bet on it; they're foreign invaders and I don't think they'd be accepted that freely.

  12. #27332
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    GoT doesn't exist in a vacuum. This world is the only audience that the content has, and it's this world that it speaks to. Like all fiction. It doesn't exist separately from its audience.
    And yet this audience cheered that brutality, the gratuitous rape scenes that was even more so that Martin had. Calling such "realistic." And now...we get people injecting their own morality that was raised in a comfy chair of their own...I'd say it's pretty damn late for protesting such now..

  13. #27333
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowferal View Post
    It's not out of character...if there was justification.
    I'm looking at previuos events, Astapor, Mereen...when she was going to Astapor she didn't want slave soldiers for the fact that they were indeed just that; slaves. All the writing before always lent her that sense of justice, and more so a just rulership, so much so that the cynical SOB Tyrion believed it.
    Now she went from that to...what you have now. Why the hell is anyone trying to rationalize this a good writing? Is there anyone going to answer that?
    None of what she did was ever about "justice".

    With Astapor, she engaged in a good-faith trade for Unsullied warriors. She then broke her oath, murdered the leadership, and walked away with both the Unsullied and her "price" (Drogon). You can say "but slavery", but slavery was standard practice, and she certainly had no problem playing along. She just found slavery personally offensive, since she'd been treated like property herself; it wasn't about justice, it's about personal offense.

    The one time she was faced with an issue of justice, she tried to be fair, it blew up in her face because she did a piss-poor job of it, and she said "fuck it" and never bothered to establish any sort of law or code for her people to abide by; it's entirely at her whim.

  14. #27334
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    For Drogon, if the Targaryen blood holds strong in Jon, he could likely keep him under control, assuming he survives. If not, they've already shown they can kill dragons.

    For the Unsullied, they'll probably go back to Essos. If they're kind, they'll take the Dothraki with them. If not, the Dothraki will either give up their ways and integrate with Westeros (they'll be without any Khals, so such a move is at least possible), or they'll likely get stuck being bandits or, more likely, killed off. There's a chance the Unsullied will stick around to establish themselves in Westeros, given the scale of death in the land, but I wouldn't bet on it; they're foreign invaders and I don't think they'd be accepted that freely.
    You dont think Danny being killed would result in both armies just going ape shit? Id love to see Jon pull a "Im Aegon Targaryen, Blood of the Dragon" moment and wrest control away from Danny.
    READ and be less Ignorant.

  15. #27335
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowferal View Post
    Brutality in a world that's brutal...some of you guys are trying to now impose your own sense of justice in such a world. That's just pathetic.
    The world was made with the look at our own (War of Roses, remember?). Plus let's not forget that the characters are humans. The same humans as we are. So yes, sense of justice is the same in both worlds.

  16. #27336
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    Like I've said multiple times, time and again Daenerys herself has challenged this perspective you have of her. You've ignored those elements, because they challenged the image of the character you wanted her to be.

    Back in Season 2, she was threatening to burn cities to the ground for daring to stand against her. You can't cry foul that she actually follows through on that in Season 8, and you certainly can't claim it wasn't foreshadowed.

    And if you want a really obvious fairly recent variation on the same theme, when she burned the Tarlys to ash. There was no cause for that. That was not justice. That was a horrible, heinous death, served out solely because they stood against her, even though they had been defeated and could not fight back any more. It's awful not just in that she killed them, but in how she killed them. Burning alive is a horrible death. But one Daenerys Stormborn is incredibly fond of.
    I'm not ignoring anything. I implied that the writers have gone back and forth about her being mad or not, and as I said that's literally the point of her development, perhaps of her story as well. By the end of her arc, the writers have leaned towards her being a merciless queen that wants to benefit the poor and unjustly treated people, not a mad queen ala "The Bells". Furthermore, as you mentioned back in season 2 when she was, you know, a kid and just starting to develop as a character? Does supporting your argument on that example make sense to you in retrospective? Honestly curious.

    Finally, your last point is very ironic considering what you're arguing about, she gave the Tarly's a choice to join her or not, and they declined. She was being her usual merciless in that scene. She even asked them, "You will not kneel?" To which Tarly replied "I already have a queen", in defiance. Even Tyrion tried to make him bend the knee. It's funny that you use this particular example, because in the VERY same scene Daenerys says, quote:

    I know what Cersei has told you. That I’ve come to destroy your cities, burn down your homes, murder you and orphan your children. That’s Cersei Lannister, not me. I’m not here to murder, and all I want to destroy is the wheel that has rolled over rich and poor to the benefit of no one but the Cersei Lannister’s of the world. I offer you a choice: bend the knee and join me, together we will leave the world a better place than we found it, or refuse, and die.
    Hell, even Tyrion told Dany to make him take the Black, and the guy straight up refused and cut off Tyrion. Tyrion also tried to persuade his son to bend the knee as well. They were given a choice to join her, which is actually pretty merciful considering they are her literal enemies, that or to die. They were not killed when "there was no cause for that". Horrible death? Sure, burning to death is horrible, but that's irrelevant. Even the rest of the army was spared as far as we know.

    I don't think I need to say more, the quote above pretty much sums up her personally by that point in the story, this is why people are pissed, it's a literal 180 in terms of character development. I think you owe yourself to rewatch that scene.

  17. #27337
    Quote Originally Posted by Easo View Post
    The world was made with the look at our own (War of Roses, remember?). Plus let's not forget that the characters are humans. The same humans as we are. So yes, sense of justice is the same in both worlds.
    The same Humans...in such a brutal world. Or are we still living the War of the Roses?
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    None of what she did was ever about "justice". With Astapor, she engaged in a good-faith trade for Unsullied warriors. She then broke her oath, murdered the leadership, and walked away with both the Unsullied and her "price" (Drogon). You can say "but slavery", but slavery was standard practice, and she certainly had no problem playing along. She just found slavery personally offensive, since she'd been treated like property herself; it wasn't about justice, it's about personal offense.
    Again, this is about the writing and how you now want to reinterpret it...Or are you forgetting she had to be convinced she would make a better owner when Jorah said "You won't mistreat them. They won't butcher innocent people...etc..." All the while they're walking among crucified people that she seems to be staring horror at. She even wanted to give one such unfortunate water. "The blood of my enemies, not the blood of innocents." Her own words. With Sir Baerister arguing against the Unsullied.

  18. #27338
    Quote Originally Posted by Monkeymootwo View Post
    Lol. Um ok. Next time then?
    Ah, you're one of those people. "Shit, proven wrong, so I'll just laugh it off rather than admit to myself that I was, in fact, wrong. LOL, I WON ARGUMANT AGIN!!!"

    Flaming isn't allowed. Infracted.
    Last edited by Faltemer; 2019-05-15 at 01:17 AM.

  19. #27339
    Over 9000! Tommo's Avatar
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    This is kinda funny.


  20. #27340
    Follow up:


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