[TV/Books] Game of Thrones ***SPOILER Discussion***

[Mehrunes]

Well which is it? Was it true to every character or most?

With those kind of writing skills you could have helped out the team end Martins saga while he sells meal visits and makes up similar sounding names for Japanese video game developers.

If you expect anything but overzealous defense and lashing out at dem haters, you're setting yourself up for a disappointment. Internal consistency or operating within the realm of facts have no place here.

True to them all, I was just trying to be polite. No character steered off their arc.

Least of all Jaime “I never cared for them - innocent or otherwise” Lannister.

<snip>

Good summary all around. I'll also point out that both GRRM and HBO wanted something along the lines of what you outlined there.

The last two seasons were terrific. People are going off their "feelings" from literally 3 years ago (4 now?), and for the most part haven't rewatched it. AND, all the publicity is mostly negative, because that kind of thing sells, AND, yes, there were plenty of people who "didn't like the ending". But as was pointed out, not everyone was EVER going to like the ending. And the ending was highly controversial.

It's mighty fucking weird that the publicity for the earlier seasons was overwhelmingly positive then. I guess they didn't care about money back then. Those charitable media commentators of yore are sorely missed.

But really, in a GRRM series, did anyone think that Dany was going to get the throne? It would have been the most un-GRRM thing possible. And even more remarkable, Dany claimed to want to "break the wheel" - but she was just more of the same. Bran getting the throne actually did what Dany wanted.

Look at the legions of people saying anything about Dany getting the throne here.

My 3 favorite episodes are Blackwater, Rains of Castamere and Hardhome. Had all of the show's original content been as great as that last one, the series would have been the best in history.

Alas. It's truly tragic how much they shat the bed. And we all know Martin won't live to finish the books, if he even manages to release the 6th one sometime this decade, so the only "proper" ending we'll get is... this.

I'd put up The Laws of Gods and Men and The Watchers on the Wall up there as well. The aforementioned The Winds of Winter was also stellar, even if season 6 as a whole was already in the state of partial collapse.

[cubby]

Ah, I see you've returned to vomit up your fringe opinions on the show again. Did anyone need to know you'd rewatched the show and still somehow enjoyed it? Obviously no one here (and pretty much no one at all) agrees with you that the show ended well and was excellent throughout so it seems a bit masochistic of you to open this discussion back up after more than a month of inactivity for the thread. You can chalk it up to a handful of "haters" if you want but great shows don't get universally panned by audiences and critics alike.

Even without D&D to run it into the ground, the prequel series that comes out in less than 4 months doesn't seem to have much hype behind it. No one really cares anymore. GRRM is doing his best to cash in on as much as he can before he dies and Benioff/Weiss have disappeared into the Netflix content churn.

Just returned to offer up the side that is least heard. But it's adorable you think that "pretty much no one at all agrees with [me] that the show ended well". You are literally the reason that guy put up his article.

Thanks for proving me right. Even if you don't understand why.

- - - Updated - - -

If you expect anything but overzealous defense and lashing out at dem haters, you're setting yourself up for a disappointment. Internal consistency or operating within the realm of facts have no place here.

No for you apparently. I'm only ever after a good discussion. The vitriol you spew is neither needed nor wanted here.

If you want to keep chatting about details/facts/events, please, have it. But if you're just going to vomit your BS, well, I guess you can do that too.

[Ashana Darkmoon]

So there is someone on this forum who agrees with Danuser after all

[Jastall]

I'd put up The Laws of Gods and Men and The Watchers on the Wall up there as well. The aforementioned The Winds of Winter was also stellar, even if season 6 as a whole was already in the state of partial collapse.

Oh yeah, all 3 of those were great episodes, also loved Baelor and The Lion and the Rose. Battle of the Bastards I have a laundry list of issues with but I really did like the claustrophobic and chaotic aspect of the battle itself. But S7 and S8 never reached any of those heights. I did like the one in S8 where Jaime knights Brienne and Tyrion sings, but after that the show doesn't collapse as much as evaporates.

Man, it's like a curse. Every time I reminisce about how great the series was, it ends with me remembering the last two seasons and groaning. What a terrible waste of potential.

[Val the Moofia Boss]

What we should have gotten:

Season 1 (10 episodes) = Book 1 (700 pages)
Season 2 (10 episodes) = Book 2 (750 pages)
Season 3 (10 episodes) = Book 3 Part 1 (500 pages)
Season 4 (10 episodes) = Book 3 Part 2 (500 pages)
Season 5 (10 episodes) = Books 4 & 5 Part 1 (566 pages)
Season 6 (10 episodes) = Books 4 & 5 Part 2 (566 pages)
Season 7 (10 episodes) = Books 4 & 5 Part 3 (566 pages)
Season 8 (10 episodes) = Book 6 Draft Part 1 (500+ pages)
Season 9 (10 episodes) = Book 6 Draft Part 2 (500+ pages)
Season 10 (10 episodes) = Book 6 Draft Part 3 (500+ pages)

As @Rollo and @crusadernero mentioned, the show had been running for 9 years (filiming began in 2010). That is a long time to ask people to stay on the same project. While the actors may be smiles in interviews, they may have been wanting to move on to other things.

Also, there is the issue that actor costs were skyrocketing. The 5 A tier actors, Peter Dinklage, Kit Harrington, Emilia Clarke, Nikolaj Coster-Waldau, and Lena Headey, were making $1.1 milion USD each) per episode by season 7. Almost $40 million in salaries for 5 actors for just one season. If the show had ran for 10 seasons as you propose... the per-episode salaries of the A tier actors would be incredible. And that's just the A tier actors. Ofcourse, the actors could stick around and accept a lower salary... if they were still motivated in doing Game of Thrones, that is. And if any of them walked, interest in the show declines. So HBO was financially motivated to not extend the show for too long. It'd be more profitable to end GoT and start a new show that takes years for actor salaries to start adding up.

[Adamas102]

Just returned to offer up the side that is least heard. But it's adorable you think that "pretty much no one at all agrees with [me] that the show ended well". You are literally the reason that guy put up his article.

Thanks for proving me right. Even if you don't understand why.

Haha isn't it obvious that YOU'RE the reason for those articles? Just like you're the one struggling to keep this thread alive.

No one else cares! Hating on a show that ended 3 years ago isn't a draw or clickbait-y thing anymore. At the time there was plenty of good discussion on how and why a show that started off so well could shit the bed so badly, but at this point it has mostly faded into obscurity. No GoT videos or articles come up on any of my feeds, no one (outside of this relatively quiet thread) talks about it, no one is hyped about it, no one cares. Except of course for the few people like yourself who can't seem to tear themselves away. I just found it amusing that this thread popped back up on my recent posts list and was even more amuse by the reason behind it.

[cubby]

No one else cares!

Says the guy responding over and over again.

I mean, jesus, the deepest fucking irony, right?

- - - Updated - - -

No GoT videos or articles come up on any of my feeds, no one (outside of this relatively quiet thread) talks about it, no one is hyped about it, no one cares.

I guess you're one of those people who don't understand that "your feeds" may not be the end all of reality, eh? Holy fuck, you just literally create your own memes at this point. For instance, did you see the article I linked? Which is partially where this new conversation started?

[jonnysensible]

i tried to watch it from the start again and couldnt get past 2 episodes.

Whereas i could watch shows like the wire or sopranos or 1st season true detective, bebop cartoon, utopia (eng version), band of brothers - again and again.

It just wasn't that good.
@cubby will you ever rewatch it?

[Varodoc]

So there is someone on this forum who agrees with Danuser after all

Night King = Zovaal the Janitor to be honest.

Both are set up as almighty Gods of Death and both end up being laughable and moronic villains, failing completely to live up to the hype.

Danuser did say that he liked Season 8.

[cubby]

As @Rollo and @crusadernero mentioned, the show had been running for 9 years (filiming began in 2010). That is a long time to ask people to stay on the same project. While the actors may be smiles in interviews, they may have been wanting to move on to other things.

Also, there is the issue that actor costs were skyrocketing. The 5 A tier actors, Peter Dinklage, Kit Harrington, Emilia Clarke, Nikolaj Coster-Waldau, and Lena Headey, were making $1.1 milion USD each) per episode by season 7. Almost $40 million in salaries for 5 actors for just one season. If the show had ran for 10 seasons as you propose... the per-episode salaries of the A tier actors would be incredible. And that's just the A tier actors. Ofcourse, the actors could stick around and accept a lower salary... if they were still motivated in doing Game of Thrones, that is. And if any of them walked, interest in the show declines. So HBO was financially motivated to not extend the show for too long. It'd be more profitable to end GoT and start a new show that takes years for actor salaries to start adding up.

I think the above and the other two you referenced are good reasons why the show was rushed a bit. Costs and fatigue were big issues. And given that D&D weren't working with existing material, they had the opportunity to wrap it up.

- - - Updated - - -

i tried to watch it from the start again and couldnt get past 2 episodes.

Whereas i could watch shows like the wire or sopranos or 1st season true detective, bebop cartoon, utopia (eng version), band of brothers - again and again.

It just wasn't that good.
@cubby will you ever rewatch it?

You mean the first two episodes of Season 1? I mean, to each there own - no judgment. To answer directly, I've rewatched the entire series now, after the ending was out.

I've probably watched Band of Brothers a half dozen times all the way through. So good. Not to derail, but did you see that Hanks/Spielberg just wrapped up the "sequel" (that's what the article called it) to BoB - a limited series on the 8th Army Air Force? Did you watch The Pacific? I liked that far less than BoB.

[Adamas102]

I guess you're one of those people who don't understand that "your feeds" may not be the end all of reality, eh? Holy fuck, you just literally create your own memes at this point. For instance, did you see the article I linked? Which is partially where this new conversation started?

Yeah that's rich coming from the guy that dismisses the mountains of objective criticism as "just haters". But hey, at least you can now admit that your opinion is a fringe one ("the side that is least heard" as you so adorably put it).

I'm not going to go through the trouble of critiquing the show again and I don't need validation from random articles on websites that I don't visit. I don't expect much from the guy that continually comes to this thread for a thrashing (talk about becoming a meme...), but it's amusing nonetheless. The amount of time I'm spending with these responses is a far cry from the 70+ hours you dumped on rewatching this show.

Now tell me why I (or anyone else for that matter) should care about an article that isn't going to impart any new information about a trainwreck of a show that happened 3 years ago, because it seems you're the only one in this thread that wants to discuss it. It really does seem like you were the only one here giving them those clicks.

[fazaim]

Yeah that's rich coming from the guy that dismisses the mountains of objective criticism as "just haters". But hey, at least you can now admit that your opinion is a fringe one ("the side that is least heard" as you so adorably put it).

I'm not going to go through the trouble of critiquing the show again and I don't need validation from random articles on websites that I don't visit. I don't expect much from the guy that continually comes to this thread for a thrashing (talk about becoming a meme...), but it's amusing nonetheless. The amount of time I'm spending with these responses is a far cry from the 70+ hours you dumped on rewatching this show.

Now tell me why I (or anyone else for that matter) should care about an article that isn't going to impart any new information about a trainwreck of a show that happened 3 years ago, because it seems you're the only one in this thread that wants to discuss it. It really does seem like you were the only one here giving them those clicks.

I recently rewatched it too with my girlfriend who had the pleasure of not having to wait a year after cliffhangers. It's a fucking epic show until the last season where it gets strange. The penultimate wasn't as bad as I remembered.

[Adamas102]

I recently rewatched it too with my girlfriend who had the pleasure of not having to wait a year after cliffhangers. It's a fucking epic show until the last season where it gets strange. The penultimate wasn't as bad as I remembered.

There are a lot of things the show did well (for the most part). Casting, score, special effects, costume design, location shoots, etc. There are plenty of moments in the early seasons that did a good job of adapting the source material. It also has its uses as a cautionary tale now.

There's no problem with liking the show despite its weaknesses. Even the best shows aren't perfect all the way through. The reason cubby gets shat on is because he likes to double down on things like "well done all the way through" (like a terribly cooked steak) and makes a point of hand waving any and all criticism as nothing but irrational haters. In one post he'll admit that there were issues when the show runners ran out of source material and the production/story was rushed to its conclusion, and in the next post say that everything was done perfectly and everything made sense and was consistent throughout. I think he mostly just likes stirring things up in this thread every now and then since he knows no one agrees with him.

[Kathranis]

So HBO was financially motivated to not extend the show for too long. It'd be more profitable to end GoT and start a new show that takes years for actor salaries to start adding up.

You can say that, but several people are on record saying that HBO wanted to keep doing the show and that D&D wanted to end it. HBO was pushing for them to keep it going because it was a massive hit.

As for the casting issues, that may be true. But books 4 and 5 also introduce a ton of new characters as the Starks and Lannisters lose power and start taking more of a back seat.

[cubby]

Just finished the entire thing, and yeah, the final two seasons weren't as strong as the first six, certainly. They suffered for lack of source material and a rushed final season. Could it have been better? Certainly. Was is ever going to please everyone? Never. Still very good overall though.

One item I wanted to comment on, coming back around. The moment Dany is on her dragon, having won, with the city bells ringing their surrender in the background. The moment when she turned the corner on madness and burned the city wasn't as strong as I remembered. That one moment wasn't as justifiable, at least in my eyes, as her slow burn into the madness. I wish they had somehow made those bells ringing some kind of final switch that get flipped.

And watching the ending, with the Starks going their separate ways, I was yearning to see what Arya finds "west of Westeros".

- - - Updated - - -

So, watching the last few S8 episodes. Watching the scene where Jamie leaves Winterfell. There is room to consider that he actually went back to convince Cersi to surrender, and if not, kill her. The speech to Brienne was a lie. He did change. But when he finally got there, Dany had already destroyed the city and won.

Totally wrong here - Jamie went back to where he always did, Cersi. Ironically, a strong story line either way.

- - - Updated - - -

I recently rewatched it too with my girlfriend who had the pleasure of not having to wait a year after cliffhangers. It's a fucking epic show until the last season where it gets strange. The penultimate wasn't as bad as I remembered.

Agreed. I think the last season is "strange", as you put it, for the wholly justifiable reasons we see in this thread. It was rushed, D&D wanted to be done, no source material, etc.

Some of the story lines that do get tied up are done very well, and relatively cleanly. Possibly too cleanly for some, if that makes any sense. GRRM wrote fantastic prose with epic detail, and story lines that crossed over and back and through each other again. D&D had almost zero chance of matching that when they cribbed the first six seasons from existing material. It's possible no one could have.

One oddity - and I'm not sure who I would have killed off, of those that remained - but WAY too many main characters survived to the end. Even in the fight against the dead it was one solid secondary character and a few other minor secondaries that died. Aside from Dany, who almost HAD to die (and whom never actually, literally, sat in the Iron Throne - if you remember her final scene, she caresses' one of the handles of the blades that make up the Iron Throne, had turned to sit, when Jon walks in). GRRM would have slaughtered half of them. And I'm terrified to see who he would have offed.

[Varodoc]

Everyone should have died against the Dead with the way DnD wrote and portrayed the battle, you would have to rewrite literally the entire episode to justify someone surviving that battle.

Sam should have died because he was literally overwhelmed by 30 zombies.

Jon Snow should have died from Viserion's fire. The idea that hiding behind a little ruined wall would save him is laughable when the largest wall on the planet was no match for Viserion.

Bran should have just been killed by the Night King. It didn't make sense for the Night King to stare at him for 3 hours (he even twitched his head at one point ) when he was pretty quick and methodical in killing the previous Three-Eyed Raven.

Arya should have died because there's really no reason why the Night King wouldn't just tighten his grip and crush her neck. Especially since we know that the Night King has supernatural strength from his feat of killing Viserion with a simple spear, when the human kingdom needs entire ballista weapons just to harm a dragon.

Drogon also should have died. The Night King was able to kill Viserion, a smaller and more distant target at the time, but he couldn't hit Drogon, Okay sure.

All the civilians in the crypt should have died, literally all civilians were there, there's no reason why any of them would survive against the hordes of deceased Starks coming to kill them. So Sansa, Missandei, Tyrion, Varys, etc. should be dead.

And finally all other named characters should be dead. As shown in the final scene, it was literally just the 10 named combatants left, backed against a wall, against a million zombies. That they survived for that long on their own, long enough for the Night King to be destroyed, is plot armour.

I didn't want all characters to die but the way DnD wrote and portrayed the battle left no other outcome, you finally realized this after 3 years. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[Witchblade77]

the ending we got was positively happy and its just... goes against the established tone of the series. tons of characters survived, villains died and everyone surviving basically got exactly the life they always wanted. its not just too clean, it is an ending to a different story,

also battle for Winterfel is those horribly written I don't even know where to begin. like... you did the trenches, but don't light them and then you have your light cavalry LEAVE the protection of the walls before you did any thinning of the encroaching army to give that army more soldiers essentially. MASTERFUL strategy right there. oh and then that slaughtered army is back to being at full force in the next episode - very much alive, somehow. wtf....

[cubby]

the ending we got was positively happy and its just... goes against the established tone of the series. tons of characters survived, villains died and everyone surviving basically got exactly the life they always wanted. its not just too clean, it is an ending to a different story,

also battle for Winterfel is those horribly written I don't even know where to begin. like... you did the trenches, but don't light them and then you have your light cavalry LEAVE the protection of the walls before you did any thinning of the encroaching army to give that army more soldiers essentially. MASTERFUL strategy right there. oh and then that slaughtered army is back to being at full force in the next episode - very much alive, somehow. wtf....

I hope it doesn't seem hypocritical, but I agree with a bit of the above. The ending was just a little too much "all the good guys lived", definitely against the tone of GRRM overall. I still liked the ending, and enjoyed it, but year.

Agreed too - rewatching it the battle was a little painful.

Everyone should have died against the Dead with the way DnD wrote and portrayed the battle, you would have to rewrite literally the entire episode to justify someone surviving that battle.

Indeed. I liked the snippets of character interactions they had, however. Including that wonderful scene with Brienne getting knighted. Keep those, but yeah, rewrite the battle so it seems impossible for anyone outside the Godseye area surviving.

[fazaim]

There are a lot of things the show did well (for the most part). Casting, score, special effects, costume design, location shoots, etc. There are plenty of moments in the early seasons that did a good job of adapting the source material. It also has its uses as a cautionary tale now.

There's no problem with liking the show despite its weaknesses. Even the best shows aren't perfect all the way through. The reason cubby gets shat on is because he likes to double down on things like "well done all the way through" (like a terribly cooked steak) and makes a point of hand waving any and all criticism as nothing but irrational haters. In one post he'll admit that there were issues when the show runners ran out of source material and the production/story was rushed to its conclusion, and in the next post say that everything was done perfectly and everything made sense and was consistent throughout. I think he mostly just likes stirring things up in this thread every now and then since he knows no one agrees with him.

Thread's to big to read through haha, I just got in. But yes, I agree. I do however remember a lot of wishes I had watching the last season. When we only had the trailer for the episode after the fall of the Night King, I remember a reddit thread which affected my experience a lot. It was long and detailed, but in essence it said that Jorah was seemingly stabbed in the heart with Dragon Glass (the way white walkers were created) and that the Night King also died under weirwood, which makes the soul trapped between the realms or unable to move along completely. And since they were about to burn all the corpses on the pyres outside Winterfell, the Night King would manifest through Jorah's corpse and start raising all the corpses. At this same moment Bran was in the past looking at the Mad King while also being able to see/feel the present. This made him shout "BURN THEM ALL!" which then also affected the Mad King in the past, creating a "the end is the beginning" type of story. Watching back then, I didn't just want this outcome, I sat there expecting it, right. Because this was a show that rarely disappointed and this was fan fiction but the real show would surely do better than that if not exactly that, in my mind. This time around, years later, I of course had it in the back of my mind, but I knew not to expect it and for the first time watched it all with some kind of a objective viewing. At least I gave a thousand less fucks, to put it simply. But there are some shit moments, like the Jon Snow heroic moment drowning in ice, being saved by Benjen only to kill off Benjen two secs later. It makes zero sense to put it there.

[Koriani]

You are NOT who I was calling a "hater" - my apologies if it seemed that way. I appreciate our conversations on this an other topics.

The Gamer comment was re an article I read. I couldn't have made my comment about it more obscure though.

And come on - you also posted knowing exactly the response you were going to get. You weren't posting expecting no response at all in an otherwise 'pretty dead' thread on a discussion everyone already beat to death in the prior 100 pages.

So don't act like 'the haters' showing up was any sort of surprise or anything different than what you were (at best) expecting and/or (at worst) hoping for. Otherwise why post on a public forum at all?

Because yeah - duh - you're going to get (mostly) the same responses you got before when we spent dozens and dozens of pages beating it to death. I mean I don't know why you want to spend another dozen pages doing the same thing over again but *shrugs* you posted, not me. So enjoy I guess?

- - - Updated - - -

One oddity - and I'm not sure who I would have killed off, of those that remained - but WAY too many main characters survived to the end. Even in the fight against the dead it was one solid secondary character and a few other minor secondaries that died. Aside from Dany, who almost HAD to die (and whom never actually, literally, sat in the Iron Throne - if you remember her final scene, she caresses' one of the handles of the blades that make up the Iron Throne, had turned to sit, when Jon walks in). GRRM would have slaughtered half of them. And I'm terrified to see who he would have offed.

Truth there! GRRM would (will - hush I'm still hoping; I'm a King fan, I've waited 10+ years between books before - LOL) most certainly be killing off way more characters than guys on TV (producers, writers, directors, doesn't matter) are comfortable with.

I mean I do understand why TV shows don't like killing off main (or even popular secondary) characters; kill off too many fan favs, piss off too many fans, and they won't keep watching as they don't feel invested in new characters/don't want to devote the time if they are all 'killed off anyway' (all examples: The Walking Dead) -- but still, its one of those more difficult 'rules' to start poking a stick at when you're switching between the medias (books vs. serial productions).

I'm not terrified to see how GRRM ends this and who he offs and how - I'm more terrified we won't see any of it at all. But I'm still hoping.