1. #27601
    Quote Originally Posted by Mister K View Post
    and Sansa rebuilding forces. Drogon will die somehow and Bran becomes the new Night King.
    Personally I don't think this will happen. I think it will just end with her being the mad queen. Maybe killing Sansa and Bran, but I don't think we will see her deposed. I have no faith in the writers to make this in anyway neat.
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    crazy people gonna have there dog put down for rape after they hump there leg
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    feminists they always look like a hippo thats rolled in dogshit and then hit with a nuclear weapon and lived

  2. #27602
    The Lightbringer Frontenac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Poe View Post
    Irrc King's Landing has a population of ~1 Million. Are you sure those cities were as populated as King's Landing ?
    Does it matter? 100 000 or a million, she would still kill all those civilians.
    "Je vous répondrai par la bouche de mes canons!"

  3. #27603
    Quote Originally Posted by Adamas102 View Post
    That’s like saying that since you shit your pants as a baby that was a “warning sign” that you will shit your pants today.

    Seems like a lot of people, such as yourself, don’t know what foreshadowing actually means. It would be as if Tyrion decided to hit up a whorehouse in the middle of the battle. I’m sure you clowns would be pointing towards his scenes from the early seasons screaming “totally in character!” while the rest of us lament another example of shit writing.
    Using extreme examples to make a point does not make the point valid.

    Foreshadowing is a literary device in which a writer gives an advance hint of what is to come later in the story. Foreshadowing often appears at the beginning of a story, or a chapter, and helps the reader develop expectations about the coming events in a story. There are various ways to create foreshadowing. A writer may use character dialogues to hint at what may occur in the future. In addition, any event or action in the story may throw a hint to the readers about future events or actions. Even a title of a work or a chapter title can act as a clue that suggests what is going to happen.

    So it is a hint, or a possibility. There is a lot of red herring foreshadowing also, a twist so to speak.

    Example. In John Steinbeck’s novel Of Mice and Men, George killing Candy’s dog foreshadows George killing Lennie. Even the nature of the death of the dog was the same as Lennie’s, as both were shot in the back of the head. He chooses to kill Lennie himself in order to save him from being killed by a stranger.

    Tyrion loved whorehouses. If he went before or after the battle, or went to one instead of the battle, sure, no surprise. If he just dropped his weapon or walked into the city if he ws not fighting to find a house that is open for business despite all the fighitng...that would be shit writing.

    Just because you dare a Danny "fanboie" or on the D&D Suck Bandwagon, does not mean there were not hints of Danny burning the city down. Unexpected...yes. Necessary...probably not. Done for the sake of a twist...maybe. But still the possibility was always there.

  4. #27604
    The Lightbringer crakerjack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ablock87 View Post
    Imagine thinking Dany killing evil people, slave owners, and mutineers is somehow similar to killing innocents and an army that THREW DOWN THEIR WEAPONS.

    You have to be pants-on-head ignorant to think this is in character.

    I don't care if she goes mad queen, but how about a build up that lasts longer than, say, one episode.
    You're ignoring the obvious elephant in the room. This was the first city that didn't treat her the same way past cities in Essos did. Unlike Kings landing, the cities in Essos needed saving and a huge population would reach out to her and love her like the saving queen she was. What did we see in Kings landing? People flocking towards her! Oh wait, no we didn't. They were all trying to get in the city and seek shelter from Dany. The whole time Dany is in Westeros, she comes to realize that she has no allies here. The native people show her no love and only look at her like she's an stereotypical Targaryen.

    What have we seen Dany do to people she doesn't trust or don't respect her? She kills them. Just because it's possible to justify her actions doesn't mean she's incapable for extreme action. Yes she crucified slavers, but she still committed an act of nailing hundreds of people to crosses and even some of them weren't bad people. She just stereotyped them all and treated them all the same. So we know she has no issue murdering people if she can justify it and she's capable of getting really mad. Don't forget that this is the same person who said she would take what's rightfully hers with fire and blood.

    Jorah/Missandei have been dead for over a month by the time the siege happens, if not longer. No one is consoling her and there's no close friends to rationalize her thoughts. What was the last thing Missandei said to Dany? "Make sure you show mercy my queen!" or was it something along the lines of "Burn these fuckers". I feel like it's the hardcore Dany fans that have a hard time realizing this was all a possibility. Hell, throughout the whole series, various people reference the Targaryen phrase "The gods flip a coin to decide which ones become mad". She was never an exception, but when you're love her and justify all her actions, you never see the sides of her that are questionable. "That's my badass lady! You go get em girl! She's going to be the best queen ever and we'll all have a proper ending with the rightful queen on the throne." Then when she doesn't, everyone wants to cry "But she was supposed to be the one!"
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  5. #27605
    Anyone else think Arya actually died? I’ve been thinking about that horse, and how much it looks like that Golden Company’s dudes. It’s odd that they showed a scene of it dying, then Arya sees a horse that looks just like it and rides it out. Makes me think her and the horse are in the afterlife and maybe she did become Death.

    If you know a spoiler, don’t tell me. I want to be surprised.
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  6. #27606
    There are usually people who support real life tyrants and monsters as well, and often those who either think they couldn't have done what they did, or rationalize it because they like the person more than they hate the crime. The way people get engaged with the content is more entertaining to witness than the show.

  7. #27607
    Quote Originally Posted by uopayroll View Post
    Just because you dare a Danny "fanboie" or on the D&D Suck Bandwagon, does not mean there were not hints of Danny burning the city down. Unexpected...yes. Necessary...probably not. Done for the sake of a twist...maybe. But still the possibility was always there.
    No one is arguing about whether it was possible. It’s a fictional story, pretty much anything can be written and acted out, but that doesn’t mean it’s done well in terms of the overall narrative.

    It wasn’t an extreme example. Tyrion talked a lot about whores in the early seasons. As you noted, under the right circumstances having him visit a whore house in s8e5 might work, though for the most part his character had progressed past the point of only caring about drinking and fucking, and it would have been jarring for him to suddenly revert back to old Tyrion at such a strange time. Likewise, Dany spoke a lot about burning down cities when she was still a child wannabe-monarch basing her life on her brother’s propaganda. Under the right circumstances of course she could revert back to the immature fiery temper she used to display, but she had for the most part developed beyond that. The point is that the writers did a shit job of getting her from where she had gotten as a character (even at the very start of the episode) to “lol time to burn everyone”.
    Last edited by Adamas102; 2019-05-15 at 07:28 PM.

  8. #27608
    Quote Originally Posted by Frontenac View Post
    Does it matter? 100 000 or a million, she would still kill all those civilians.
    You claimed that there were just as many innocents in those cities as in King's Landing. I was correcting your math.
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  9. #27609
    Dreadlord wunksta's Avatar
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    This was always going to happen. Remember her vision? She was always going to be queen of the ashes.


    The only problem is that D&D didn't make a smooth transition and so it feels kind of jarring. It could have made more sense if there was a direct trigger instead of just the bells. Like if Rhaegal had died during the fight or after the surrender.
    Exploration is in our nature. We began as wanderers, and we are wanderers still. We have lingered long enough on the shores of the cosmic ocean. We are ready at last to set sail for the stars.

  10. #27610
    I find it amusing that the actors had difficulty saying anything good about this season.

  11. #27611
    Quote Originally Posted by wunksta View Post
    This was always going to happen. Remember her vision? She was always going to be queen of the ashes.


    The only problem is that D&D didn't make a smooth transition and so it feels kind of jarring. It could have made more sense if there was a direct trigger instead of just the bells. Like if Rhaegal had died during the fight or after the surrender.
    That's snow, not ashes. There are even icicles there.

  12. #27612
    Quote Originally Posted by Frontenac View Post
    She was ready to burn Yunkai and Astapor to the ground. There was just as much innocent civilians in those cities than there were in King's Landing.
    I don't even remember if Yunkai exists in the show.

    Astapor she never tried to burn, she killed the upper class then left the city, which is irresponsible as hell but hardly even close to the same as methodically slaughtering the inhabitants street by street.

  13. #27613
    Anung un Rama Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MakeMeLaugh View Post
    That's snow, not ashes. There are even icicles there.
    Ashes often look like snow. And the more relevant point is, that's the throne room in the Red Keep, and it's not just destroyed and open to the air, it's empty. The only voices she hears in this vision are those of the dead.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jastall View Post
    I don't even remember if Yunkai exists in the show.

    Astapor she never tried to burn, she killed the upper class then left the city, which is irresponsible as hell but hardly even close to the same as methodically slaughtering the inhabitants street by street.
    Nobody was saying she did even worse things earlier in the show.

    Foreshadowing is about showing a hint of a future possibility. You have her say "I'll burn your city to the ground" in Season 2, and in Season 8, she . . . burns a city to the ground. That's how it works.

  14. #27614
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post



    Nobody was saying she did even worse things earlier in the show.

    Foreshadowing is about showing a hint of a future possibility. You have her say "I'll burn your city to the ground" in Season 2, and in Season 8, she . . . burns a city to the ground. That's how it works.
    For pete's sake, again, "it was foreshadowed" does NOT mean "it's fine". Tons and tons of potential actions are foreshadowed in the show and never come to pass, such as Jon confronting the Night King which didn't happen because our expectations had to be subverted and a character with 0 links to the King did him in instead. Or the semi-Valonquar prophecy in the show that amounted to absolutely nothing. That this time this particular foreshadowing had a payoff does not mean we should accept the action as a done deal.

    The point is that the magnitudes of Dany's actions before this episode, and the magnitudes of the actions committed here, have no common measure. The character development to get her there was incredibly rushed, and her actual reasons are very unclear unless you hear the writers just state them in the post-episode feature (and even then it doesn't line up with what the episode actually showed us anyway). Previously all her targets fell under the acceptable standards of her day when it came to warfare and politics. Now she goes out of her way to commit an atrocity that would have made Tywin himself pause and caused Jaime to murder Aerys. She didn't cross a line, she crossed a dozen lines in a single jump and the show's writing did not earn that because the season was incredibly rushed.

    Picture this: we've seen Tyrion kill hundreds, maybe thousands of soldiers with Wildfire. We've seen him threaten to murder everyone in the Red Keep during his trial. Would that alone make it fine if he decided to ignite Wildire under the Red Keep and burn thousands to death, commoners taking shelter included? Or would it be too much of a jump between his previous characterization and current one? Or if Jon decided to hang an entire village, foreshadowed by him hanging those who murdered his ass?

  15. #27615
    The Lightbringer Frontenac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jastall View Post
    I don't even remember if Yunkai exists in the show.

    Astapor she never tried to burn, she killed the upper class then left the city, which is irresponsible as hell but hardly even close to the same as methodically slaughtering the inhabitants street by street.
    Yes, Yunkai exists in the show. I suggest you look at the clip someone has posted in an earlier post. A fleet composed of ships from Yunkai, Astapor and Volantis are bombarding Meereen. What Dany plans to do? "I will crucify the Masters, set their ships to fire, kill every last one of their soldiers and return their cities to the dust."

    When you destroy a city, there's a chance that its citizens will die with it...

    The difference between then and now is that in Essos she always had advisors to change her mind. She is now left with no advisors she can trust. Therefore, in her rage she follows her first idea. Is it sane? No. But there was foreshadowing of the extreme measures she could take.
    "Je vous répondrai par la bouche de mes canons!"

  16. #27616
    The Insane PACOX's Avatar
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    @Jastall Dany is just Aegon (the first, not Jon), hear great, great, great, whatever uncle/grandfather without his surprise factor.

    Her invasion is very similar to his own with the variations being what might get her killed (I hope).

    What they should have done was referenced her similarities to him more as she views herself as a savior because people forget how her family came to power.

    The irony is that Aegon (Jon) will end the house is the finale follows natural progression.

  17. #27617
    Quote Originally Posted by PACOX View Post
    @Jastall Dany is just Aegon (the first, not Jon), hear great, great, great, whatever uncle/grandfather without his surprise factor.

    Her invasion is very similar to his own with the variations being what might get her killed (I hope).

    What they should have done was referenced her similarities to him more as she views herself as a savior because people forget how her family came to power.

    The irony is that Aegon (Jon) will end the house is the finale follows natural progression.
    Aegon accepted the surrender of the Lords of Westeros, however. He killed thousands in battle at the Fields of Fire but did not continue burning things after his victory. Same for Harrenhall where he stopped after Harren was torched. Aegon and his sisters were far less merciful towards Dorne... but the Dornish never surrendered, their reputation comes from the fact they kept going even as the Targaryen burnt every castle and holdfast they could get their dragons on (but not Sunspear or the nearby city itself, notably). All in all Aegon was indeed a ruthless conqueror but there are no records of him going out of his way to massacre commoners. Unless the show's backstory on him significantly differs from the book's, of course.

    @Frontenac see my response above. Words are wind, as the books put it so often, and foreshadowing is not good enough when a character makes such a significant shift.

  18. #27618
    The Lightbringer Frontenac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jastall View Post
    Aegon accepted the surrender of the Lords of Westeros, however. He killed thousands in battle at the Fields of Fire but did not continue burning things after his victory. Same for Harrenhall where he stopped after Harren was torched. Aegon and his sisters were far less merciful towards Dorne... but the Dornish never surrendered, their reputation comes from the fact they kept going even as the Targaryen burnt every castle and holdfast they could get their dragons on (but not Sunspear or the nearby city itself, notably). All in all Aegon was indeed a ruthless conqueror but there are no records of him going out of his way to massacre commoners. Unless the show's backstory on him significantly differs from the book's, of course.

    @Frontenac see my response above. Words are wind, as the books put it so often, and foreshadowing is not good enough when a character makes such a significant shift.
    And read mine again. It is not a question of words. She would have done it if Tyrion had not convinced her otherwise. I mean, you have a woman who was able to crucify all those masters, give a man to her dragons to burn and eat. We have been shown she is unable to take "no" as an answer and how she can react to a rebuke. She is able to commit atrocities. The only shift is in the scope of it all.
    "Je vous répondrai par la bouche de mes canons!"

  19. #27619
    Quote Originally Posted by Jastall View Post
    For pete's sake, again, "it was foreshadowed" does NOT mean "it's fine". Tons and tons of potential actions are foreshadowed in the show and never come to pass, such as Jon confronting the Night King which didn't happen because our expectations had to be subverted and a character with 0 links to the King did him in instead. Or the semi-Valonquar prophecy in the show that amounted to absolutely nothing. That this time this particular foreshadowing had a payoff does not mean we should accept the action as a done deal.

    The point is that the magnitudes of Dany's actions before this episode, and the magnitudes of the actions committed here, have no common measure. The character development to get her there was incredibly rushed, and her actual reasons are very unclear unless you hear the writers just state them in the post-episode feature (and even then it doesn't line up with what the episode actually showed us anyway). Previously all her targets fell under the acceptable standards of her day when it came to warfare and politics. Now she goes out of her way to commit an atrocity that would have made Tywin himself pause and caused Jaime to murder Aerys. She didn't cross a line, she crossed a dozen lines in a single jump and the show's writing did not earn that because the season was incredibly rushed.

    Picture this: we've seen Tyrion kill hundreds, maybe thousands of soldiers with Wildfire. We've seen him threaten to murder everyone in the Red Keep during his trial. Would that alone make it fine if he decided to ignite Wildire under the Red Keep and burn thousands to death, commoners taking shelter included? Or would it be too much of a jump between his previous characterization and current one? Or if Jon decided to hang an entire village, foreshadowed by him hanging those who murdered his ass?
    The difference is that those events aren't foreshadowed, they are just more extreme versions of one event which ignore context. If Jon had been talking about hanging people, threatening to hang people, held back from hanging people, and then was betrayed and suffered a string of major losses, and was talking about hanging an entire village, we might consider his doing so well set up.

  20. #27620
    Quote Originally Posted by Frontenac View Post
    And read mine again. It is not a question of words. She would have done it if Tyrion had not convinced her otherwise. I mean, you have a woman who was able to crucify all those masters, give a man to her dragons to burn and eat. We have been shown she is unable to take "no" as an answer and how she can react to a rebuke. She is able to commit atrocities. The only shift is in the scope of it all.
    The scope IS important, mind you, and the surrender is also an important point, the Masters were still at war with her when she said that. I've no doubt she would have set fire to the fleets and slaughtered the masters, but at this time she still had a soft spot for the slaves and it would have been out of character for her to go out of her way to torch them all after the fighting was done.

    So... yeah it kinda remains words. Or at least initial intent, which is not the same thing as action. To say nothing of the fact that Dany's hatred of the Masters was well established in the show, whereas in King's Landing she outright ignores Cercei in favor of torching the commoners of King's Landing whose worse crime towards her was not loving her unconditionally.

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