1. #29021
    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    Except that there was a happy ending anyway Literally the only ones who got a bad ending were the villains (Littlefinger, Night King, Lannisters, and then Daenerys). So it's not like the "Nihilistic viewpoint of GRRM" would have been objected if Daenerys got a happy ending where she became queen or simply returned to Essos to rebuild Valyria there.

    How can you say that the "good guys never win" when that's literally what happened? The Starks (good guys) all won, even the dead ones. Catelyn won because Sansa became queen and Jon was exiled, Robb won because the North was granted independence, Eddard won because Littlefinger, Cersei, and the rest were punished for their crimes, and now obviously an omniscient Stark sits on the figurative Iron Throne...
    Brienne was formally knighted AND became a Lady commander of Kingsguard (though at least she is one of the few of the new council that is qualified more or less), Bron got a title, lands AND is a master of coin for some reason, Tyrion is now head of the Lannisters, lord of Casterly rock AND hand to the king, the ultimate fuck you to the rest of his family especially Tywin, even Cercei in theory got a happy ending, cause even though she died, she died in the arms of the one person who genuinely cared for her and the one person other then her children that she had any measure of care for herself. Arya goes off to have her adventures as she has always dreamed, while also supported by her family, Jon's exile is actualy something he has chosen and wanted at this point, Sam and Gilly get to have their happy life with their child and Sam is finally respected by people around him rather then being a butt of the jokes, seems like no more white walkers EVER, I mean... the ending of the series overall is so sickeningly sweet it makes my teeth ache.

    the good guys in D&D's GoT win so definitely and decisively, that "if you think this has a happy ending, you haven't been paying attention" claim few seasons down is a height of irony now. they simply decided that Daenerys was supposed to be a bad guy, and so they treated her accordingly. in their very ham-fisted fashion.
    Last edited by Witchblade77; 2021-06-03 at 05:14 PM.

  2. #29022
    Quote Originally Posted by Witchblade77 View Post
    Brienne was formally knighted AND became a Lady commander of Kingsguard (though at least she is one of the few of the new council that is qualified more or less), Bron got a title, lands AND is a master of coin for some reason, Tyrion is now head of the Lannisters, lord of Casterly rock AND hand to the king, the ultimate fuck you to the rest of his family especially Tywin, even Cercei in theory got a happy ending, cause even though she died, she died in the arms of the one person who genuinely cared for her and the one person other then her children that she had any measure of care for herself. Arya goes off to have her adventures as she has always dreamed, while also supported by her family, Jon's exile is actualy something he has chosen and wanted at this point, Sam and Gilly get to have their happy life with their child and Sam is finally respected by people around him rather then being a butt of the jokes, seems like no more white walkers EVER, I mean... the ending of the series overall is so sickeningly sweet it makes my teeth ache.
    Yeah honestly if you want a bittersweet ending go play Mass Effect or something, that game literally plays a sad sob piano music at the end.

    Not Game of Thrones, that was literally playing a cheerful adventurous music at the end There was nothing bitter about it.

    I mean, I guess that Daenerys Hitler's death was bitter for Jon Snow, but literally everyone else didn't care or rejoiced that the tyrant was dead.
    Some will tell you that the Light is the only path. The only weapon that can stop the enemies of Azeroth. But we see alternatives. Many roads, many possibilities, that are open to us. There will be those who doubt you. Who question your resolve, your ability to harness powers that have caused the downfall of weaker wills. Together, we will prove them wrong.

  3. #29023
    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    Yeah honestly if you want a bittersweet ending go play Mass Effect or something, that game literally plays a sad sob piano music at the end.

    Not Game of Thrones, that was literally playing a cheerful adventurous music at the end There was nothing bitter about it.

    I mean, I guess that Daenerys Hitler's death was bitter for Jon Snow, but literally everyone else didn't care or rejoiced that the tyrant was dead.
    heck, Jon seems to have gotten over her death quickly enough, and I mean, when he is walking among the wildlings he is barely holding back smile and it still shows through - Jon, who is the champion brooder of Westeros looks positively giddy.

    and honestly... its kinda of the big part of the issue i have with the narrative in the later seasons, but especially last two. we've gone from complex, multifaceted characters where even people who genuinely want to do good, be good, still make choices that may not be the most honorable, or good, people who are trying to work towards positive goals, but have to be ruthless on the way there, people who have to make complicated choices where there is no true right or wrong answer.... to these one note characters that are either good guys or bad guys. its... blah.

  4. #29024
    Quote Originally Posted by Witchblade77 View Post
    Cercei in theory got a happy ending, cause even though she died, she died in the arms of the one person who genuinely cared for her and the one person other then her children that she had any measure of care for herself..
    I think Cersei’s death was bullshit. She caused so many people pain and suffering, yet she died in a romantic way and was even peaceful looking, without even being smashed-in physically by the massive boulders that supposedly crushed them.

    Disappointing and not a satisfying ending for viewers, imo.
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  5. #29025
    Quote Originally Posted by Winter Blossom View Post
    I think Cersei’s death was bullshit. She caused so many people pain and suffering, yet she died in a romantic way and was even peaceful looking, without even being smashed-in physically by the massive boulders that supposedly crushed them.

    Disappointing and not a satisfying ending for viewers, imo.
    Compared to Daenerys, who was betrayed and stabbed by her lover just as they were kissing, and who died with a clear expression of shock and disbelief on her face, Cersei definitely got it easy. They still died and will be remembered as tyrants, but at least Cersei died on her own terms.
    Some will tell you that the Light is the only path. The only weapon that can stop the enemies of Azeroth. But we see alternatives. Many roads, many possibilities, that are open to us. There will be those who doubt you. Who question your resolve, your ability to harness powers that have caused the downfall of weaker wills. Together, we will prove them wrong.

  6. #29026
    The Insane draynay's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Winter Blossom View Post
    I think Cersei’s death was bullshit. She caused so many people pain and suffering, yet she died in a romantic way and was even peaceful looking, without even being smashed-in physically by the massive boulders that supposedly crushed them.

    Disappointing and not a satisfying ending for viewers, imo.
    I have no idea why the writing team liked her so much, she was as vile a person as there can be.
    /s

  7. #29027
    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    Compared to Daenerys, who was betrayed and stabbed by her lover just as they were kissing, and who died with a clear expression of shock and disbelief on her face, Cersei definitely got it easy. They still died and will be remembered as tyrants, but at least Cersei died on her own terms.
    I expected Daenery to die tragically, but they half-assed tried to kill her in a similar way to the prophecy after basically trolling viewers the entire time with the Prince That Was Promised, only to do nothing with it but have some end-scene with a dragon throwing a tantrum and burning a chair instead of the guy that killed his mom… cause that’s “symbolic”.

    Lazy bullshit ending. They did Dany wrong.

    And I’m still really bothered with the scene in the pits between Dany and Jon, where he brings up her maybe being wrong about her being able to conceive. Like, why even have that damn conversation if you weren’t going to do anything with it? Why?

    Ugh.
    Last edited by Winter Blossom; 2021-06-05 at 07:07 PM. Reason: Typos
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  8. #29028
    Quote Originally Posted by Witchblade77 View Post
    so much this.

    I mean.. in a books Dany and Cercei even mirror each other with how much they are consumed with those prophecies of doom they both received. if I remember correctly, in a show they didn't get to the part of Cercei dying to valonqar, right? which adds so much subtext that was missing in a show, both as far as Jaimie's character (who is technically the younger twin) AND Tyrion, whom she hates regardless, but that prophesy gives it more weight..
    This topic was actually mentioned in one of the "it's anniversary of GOT so let's talk some more smack about the ending" YouTube videos I've watched recently so I can confirm that the valonqar part of the prophecy was indeed cut out from the show.


    Quote Originally Posted by Witchblade77 View Post
    this show is just so much wasted potential. so many wasted characters... I keep thinking about Sansa that is alternately told to us to be shrewd and supposedly sets up Littlefinger with Arya, playing a long game to catch him offguard... but then instead of using information about Jon's parentage for a long game, to her advantage.. she just blabs about it? is she or is she not shrewd? I mean.. she used to be. back when she survived King's landing on her wit's alone, playing submissive loyal girl, undermining Jeoffrey in a way that pushed him into a corner of his own ego.
    I don't think it's even accurate calling them characters in the last season(s). It's more like they were plot devices. They had to fulfill whatever purpose they were needed for in a given scene, no matter how out of character they acted. Or, in case of Sansa's supposed smartness which is a massive case of "tell, don't show", out of what the writers thought the character to be.
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  9. #29029
    Quote Originally Posted by Winter Blossom View Post
    I expected Daenery to die tragically, but they half-assed tried to kill her in a similar way to the prophecy after basically trolling viewers the entire time with the Prince That Was Promised, only to do nothing with it but have some end-scene with a dragon throwing a tantrum and burning a chair instead of the guy that killed his mom… cause that’s “symbolic”.

    Lazy bullshit ending. They did Dany wrong.

    And I’m still really bothered with the scene in the pits between Dany and Jon, where he brings up her maybe being wrong about her being able to conceive. Like, why even have that damn conversation if you weren’t going to do anything with it? Why?

    Ugh.
    Yeah honestly what happened to Daenerys was a complete waste. The funny thing is that I didn't even care about her nor was I fan, but her story was objectively a waste. She didn't even get to sit on that throne, only touch it, 10 years of sacrifices and struggles all for nothing.
    Some will tell you that the Light is the only path. The only weapon that can stop the enemies of Azeroth. But we see alternatives. Many roads, many possibilities, that are open to us. There will be those who doubt you. Who question your resolve, your ability to harness powers that have caused the downfall of weaker wills. Together, we will prove them wrong.

  10. #29030
    Quote Originally Posted by cubby View Post
    I disagree. And the point overall really illustrates that the show had one set of facts going whereas other information, outside the show, had another. The whole thing with where the NK had to be stabbed specifically never made the show, so it literally didn't exist as something to be addressed, in the show. It's why Arya's kill of the NK works so well for me, and at the exact same time seems so shitty to you - because you knew about that NK kill detail, and the series itself didn't. I'll be perfectly honest here - had I know about that ahead of time, it would bug me as well. But as it is, Arya's NK was terrific, well built up, and justified in the sense that someone was going to have to do it - the NK couldn't win after all.
    Eh? Bran saw the Night King being made so he did know. He even looked at at the same spot and did his creepy smile when the Night Kings was looming over him. The only thing is how Arya knew. Guess like most of her training it was off screen.

  11. #29031
    Quote Originally Posted by Deadite View Post
    Eh? Bran saw the Night King being made so he did know. He even looked at at the same spot and did his creepy smile when the Night Kings was looming over him. The only thing is how Arya knew. Guess like most of her training it was off screen.
    IMO it would have made more sense had Bran warged into Arya so she knew his weak spot and exactly how to kill him/sneak past the Wights and Walkers. The scene would still have been poor, but at least it 1) gives an explanation as to why her ganking worked besides luck and 2) makes Bran useful as something else than bait for once in his crippled life.
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  12. #29032
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    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    Yeah honestly what happened to Daenerys was a complete waste. The funny thing is that I didn't even care about her nor was I fan, but her story was objectively a waste. She didn't even get to sit on that throne, only touch it, 10 years of sacrifices and struggles all for nothing.
    I couldn't stand her character and even less in the books. However, I agree that her story felt wasteful to me given the ending.

  13. #29033
    I feel like it suffered a lot from GRRM not really having a clear vision that they could follow. They went from pretty much reenacting entire scenes from the books with almost identical dialogue to veering a bit off in s4-6 then to suddenly being in entirely uncharted territory in s7-8, basically working off of rough outlines given to them by George and having to do all the dialogue with their own writers. It showed. It was a recipe for disaster as soon as George stopped releasing the books.

  14. #29034
    Quote Originally Posted by draynay View Post
    I have no idea why the writing team liked her so much, she was as vile a person as there can be.
    Did they like her that much? Before her death in that final season she did little but stand around giving her baby fetal alcohol syndrome. Just like Jon and Tyrion she spent almost all her screen time just watching plot unfold around her rather than actually doing anything of value. I felt she was just another forgotten character, lost by the wayside while the writers scrambled to wrap things up.

  15. #29035
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    Almost at the end of Season 4 - some asshat in this discussion was lamenting the falsity of Arya "because she doesn't really kill anyone even before arriving at Bravos" - fucking nitwits. Her kill count before they reach the Vale is 8, boys and men.

    Another thing - watching Dany grow to become a queen. There is a scene in Meereen with the Second Sons leader being sent back to [forgot the name] to retake the city and kill ALL the masters - she wanted them all slaughtered and Jorah talks her out of it. After his betrayal, her slide starts. And right after Jorah gives her that advice to be merciful, almost literally, she learns of Jorah's betrayal. So starts the slide.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Deadite View Post
    Eh? Bran saw the Night King being made so he did know. He even looked at at the same spot and did his creepy smile when the Night Kings was looming over him. The only thing is how Arya knew. Guess like most of her training it was off screen.
    Knew what? Everyone knew all you needed was Dragon's Glass or Valerian Steel to kill a WW. The rest was either left in the books or taken from interviews with the show runners - but nothing in the series gave way to the NK having to be stabbed in a certain way.

    - - - Updated - - -

    One of the biggest issues with the series for me was LittleFinger giving up Sansa to the Boltons. I could previously *maybe* justify it to LF's desire for chaos to attain the throne or at least more power. But in E4.8, when Sansa Stark is revealed after Lysa Arryn is murdered by LF, and Sansa lies for LF - I think at that point Sansa becomes unmarriable to LF because he is her uncle by marriage. So, since he can't "have" her, he uses her to gain more power and influence by marrying her off to the Boltons.
    Bah - but then right after that Sansa comes down the stairs in a dress practically pledging herself to LF.
    Last edited by cubby; 2021-06-07 at 07:19 AM.

  16. #29036
    The Undying cubby's Avatar
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    Episode 5.3 clears up the issue with LF giving Sansa to Ramsay Bolton. He was pairing her with the Boltons to form an alliance with the North, because he essentially owned the Vale. He also clearly says "I don't know much about you" when speaking with Ramsay. So he didn't know what was in store for Sansa. LF married Sansa off as a play towards getting the throne.

    - - - Updated - - -

    And in Episode 5.4 we hear Jaime tell Bran that the way Jaime wants to die "is in the arms of the woman he loves". More tribute to the idea that Jaime's death in 8.6 was true to his character and not out of sync from the story line.

  17. #29037
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    6.8 sees Jaime completely confirm that all he wants is Cersei. "All I care about is Cersei" speaking to the Tully Lord who was married in the Red Wedding, and threatening to catapult the Tully Lord's baby into the walls if that's what it takes to win. Not sure who thinks Jaime is supposed to turn away from 6 full seasons of consistent behavior.

    He also says to Lord Tully "the things we do for love" - which is right back to his beginning.

    Jaime returning to Cersei at the end seems completely sound and staying true to his character.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Jastall View Post
    IMO it would have made more sense had Bran warged into Arya so she knew his weak spot and exactly how to kill him/sneak past the Wights and Walkers. The scene would still have been poor, but at least it 1) gives an explanation as to why her ganking worked besides luck and 2) makes Bran useful as something else than bait for once in his crippled life.
    Why is it such a big deal that she snuck past some Whites and Walkers. She's stealthy, we know that, seems.

    The Night Kings weakness only existed in the books In the series all it took was Dragon Glass or Valerian Steel.

    Not sure how you get to Bran only being bait in the series. He had several pivotal moments throughout the series, especially towards the end.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    Yeah honestly what happened to Daenerys was a complete waste. The funny thing is that I didn't even care about her nor was I fan, but her story was objectively a waste. She didn't even get to sit on that throne, only touch it, 10 years of sacrifices and struggles all for nothing.
    But that's the point of it - the tragedy, everything she gave up and she never got what she wanted. I mean, really, the only person who couldn't have the throne was her. Too obvious since she's been after it since almost the beginning.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Berndorf View Post
    I feel like it suffered a lot from GRRM not really having a clear vision that they could follow. They went from pretty much reenacting entire scenes from the books with almost identical dialogue to veering a bit off in s4-6 then to suddenly being in entirely uncharted territory in s7-8, basically working off of rough outlines given to them by George and having to do all the dialogue with their own writers. It showed. It was a recipe for disaster as soon as George stopped releasing the books.
    I mostly agree (not about the disaster, of course). But they did have a rich, vibrant source material to work from for the first six seasons. And when that dried up, it certainly showed. D&D knew the ending, probably a solid outline of each main character and those strong secondary ones.

    GRRM will probably never release the last two books - which is a real shame. Not sure there was any solution to that problem once HBO started the series going. It couldn't be put on hold, and GRRM is a slow fucking writer. And now he's got multiple projects he's working on, where will he find the time.

  18. #29038
    littlefinger not being aware of what kind of shitheads Boltons are is bullcrap and betrayal of his character. littlefinger would absolutely know. he was either lying or writers forgot... again.

    Jaimie grows past his obsession with cercei. they literally set him up to grow and see beyond her, and even gave him a pivotal moment where he stands up to her and leaves her. CHOSES to leave her. no its not consistent of him to go back to her again. Jaimie, once again, is the person who have chosen to kill the king he has sworn fealty to - to protect people of kings landing, to prevent the very thing that Cercei pulled with the cept.

    and once again, i reiterate. writers have chosen to make changes to the characters. writers have chosen to omit entire plotlines, merge multiple characters into a single one, while changing characterization and role of others. and then... they tried to shove the plots on them that would have fit the characters before the changes they made, but NOT after anyways. and it really. REALLY. shows.

  19. #29039
    Quote Originally Posted by Witchblade77 View Post
    Jaimie grows past his obsession with cercei. they literally set him up to grow and see beyond her, and even gave him a pivotal moment where he stands up to her and leaves her. CHOSES to leave her. no its not consistent of him to go back to her again. Jaimie, once again, is the person who have chosen to kill the king he has sworn fealty to - to protect people of kings landing, to prevent the very thing that Cercei pulled with the cept.

    and once again, i reiterate. writers have chosen to make changes to the characters. writers have chosen to omit entire plotlines, merge multiple characters into a single one, while changing characterization and role of others. and then... they tried to shove the plots on them that would have fit the characters before the changes they made, but NOT after anyways. and it really. REALLY. shows.
    In a way, I’m not bothered by Jamie dying with Cersei, even if I didn’t like how their deaths happened. He was always known as the Kingslayer, which was a negative thing because he was viewed as a traitor and his reputation was basically ruined, even in The Book of Brothers, where his page was torn out (can’t remember). Brienne changed that, and he became known as savior, who died protecting his Queen till the very end, as well as listing all his other accomplishments.

    He had his moments, but guy did do some good deeds… like saving thousands from The Mad King. Him dying to a Targaryen while trying to save the Queen, kinda makes up for killing a King… at least in the eyes of the people, who didn’t know the real truth.
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  20. #29040
    The Undying cubby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Witchblade77 View Post
    littlefinger not being aware of what kind of shitheads Boltons are is bullcrap and betrayal of his character. littlefinger would absolutely know. he was either lying or writers forgot... again.
    But LF doesn't know Ramsay in the series - he says as much more than once. He knows Roose Bolton but not his bastard. It explains his actions a little better. Although he could have been lying about knowing about Ramsay to Sansa (in the series he tells someone else, as well, about not knowing much about Ramsay) because he was playing both sides. If the Boltons had won out in the North LF would have been the one who arranged the wedding, and as Lord of the Vale, he would have been a little closer to the throne.

    Quote Originally Posted by Witchblade77 View Post
    Jaimie grows past his obsession with cercei. they literally set him up to grow and see beyond her, and even gave him a pivotal moment where he stands up to her and leaves her. CHOSES to leave her. no its not consistent of him to go back to her again. Jaimie, once again, is the person who have chosen to kill the king he has sworn fealty to - to protect people of kings landing, to prevent the very thing that Cercei pulled with the cept.
    No, he doesn't. He went north to fight the dead because he swore an oath - part of his character. And he went north to fight the dead to protect Cersei. He doesn't "leave" her at all. He goes north because he's keeping his oath. And then he comes back to her - because she is all he's every cared about. Which is 100% confirmed in Episode 6.8.

    Quote Originally Posted by Witchblade77 View Post
    and once again, i reiterate. writers have chosen to make changes to the characters. writers have chosen to omit entire plotlines, merge multiple characters into a single one, while changing characterization and role of others. and then... they tried to shove the plots on them that would have fit the characters before the changes they made, but NOT after anyways. and it really. REALLY. shows.
    And I continue to disagree. Bringing up more and more points and examples showing where you're wrong. I don't see a lot of character deviation so far. And I'm up to Season 7. But again, there is always going to be the issue of series-only vs series/books. There is no way to bring those viewpoints to a head, as they differ so much given how much material was left in the books.

    If I may, and I mean this only in a respectful way, you and anyone else who have read the books can't take those impressions away from the series, so it may always be impacting your judgment/opinions in these conversations. I don't mean this as a dig at all, just to be clear, merely an observation.

    Even Dany's break - she is wanting to burn the slaver cities to ashes in Season 6 when Meereen is attacked by the Slavers when she is away after being flown out of the arena during that assassination attempt by the Harpy peeps. Tyrion talks her out of it. And that's before she loses everyone she's ever loved.
    Last edited by cubby; 2021-06-14 at 09:31 PM.

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