[TV/Books] Game of Thrones ***SPOILER Discussion***

[KrazyK923]

I didn't say it will, I said I believe it's the only "development" a scene like that can offer considering who the character was before.

And not every woman has to be strong. But Sansa was on an arc to be a strong woman.

And no character ever has experienced problems when embarking on a new character change. Nope.

[eschatological]

So the argument is that "OMG WE DON'T KNOW YOU CAN'T JUDGE?"

Did you think any of the storylines I outlined in those questions is a surprise and not coming? Are they totally out of left field?

I'm speaking my opinion, based on my experience as a debater and a writer, about where the show can "reasonably" go, narratively. It's pure conjecture, yes, but I'd say it's an educated guess.

[Wilian]

Not any more than say, mine from last page

Or it strenghtens her resolve, causing her to act in unison with Theon whom so shocked by the event finally breaks through the trauma of torture and confides Sansa with the truth instead of waiting and placing hope on Littlefinger which was the original plan.

[Deleted]

So the argument is that "OMG WE DON'T KNOW YOU CAN'T JUDGE?"

Did you think any of the storylines I outlined in those questions is a surprise and not coming? Are they totally out of left field?

I'm speaking my opinion, based on my experience as a debater and a writer, about where the show can "reasonably" go, narratively. It's pure conjecture, yes, but I'd say it's an educated guess.

You can judge, but be honest about what your judging about. You can't say what's going to happen, you can make educated guesses, and we can dismiss those guesses. The fact is that you have no idea how that scene is going to factor in to any conflict.

[KrazyK923]

So the argument is that "OMG WE DON'T KNOW YOU CAN'T JUDGE?"

Did you think any of the storylines I outlined in those questions is a surprise and not coming? Are they totally out of left field?

I'm speaking my opinion, based on my experience as a debater and a writer, about where the show can "reasonably" go, narratively. It's pure conjecture, yes, but I'd say it's an educated guess.

No, you're declaring that your interpretation of the scene, through a very biased lens I'll say, in terms of repercussions are where the story can go are the only ones. And you've repeatedly declared that the scene adds nothing to the show while we haven't even seen what the show is going to do with it yet.

You handwave away anybody trying to argue why your interpretation might be wrong, you fallback on "It wasn't in the books" arguments, and basically just end up arguing "But my feelies" when that doesn't work either. All with sprinkles of pretty hefty arrogance and repeated veiled insults toward people who don't agree with you by bringing up "legitimate criticisms" and the like.

[Wyattbw09]

We don't even know what repercussions of the Sansa scene are going to happen yet.

This is my primary objection with peoples objections, is that we simply don't know yet how this is going to play out.

Because there are never weak people in real life.

Sure, and there are plenty of weak characters in Game of Thrones and they stay largely in the background, but if you create a character in a show whose only purpose is to be abused, raped, beaten, and kicked around, that is not good storytelling, and I suspect it says something more about the person who gets enjoyment out of seeing a character whose only purpose is to be abused by others, and wants that character to never be more then a tool of abuse, then it does about the character themselves.

[KrazyK923]

Sure, and there are plenty of weak characters in Game of Thrones and they stay largely in the background, but if you create a character in a show whose only purpose is to be abused, raped, beaten, and kicked around, that is not good storytelling, and I suspect it says something more about the person who gets enjoyment out of seeing a character whose only purpose is to be abused by others, and wants that character to never be more then a tool of abuse, then it does about the character themselves.

But Sansa exists for more than that. And to reduce her entire character to an abuse victim while ignoring literally every other aspect to it is pretty demeaning in and of itself, no?

You want an abuse victim with no actual other story purpose? Look at Jeyne Poole. But that certainly is not true of Sansa. However overcoming abuse/hardships is a big part of her character. And to throw her in with Ramsay Bolton, of all people, and expect the show to completely break his character and treat her like a queen is far, far more objectionable to me than seeing a terrible character doing a terrible thing like someone would expect.

[eschatological]

And my interpretation that she didn't want this, but she trusted the bad counsel of Littlefinger, who has essentially become her father figure since Ned was executed. And that trust has burned her. And that her entire storyline is about freeing herself from the strictures of these men in her life and becoming something stronger.

Also, how can we say Sansa knew the type of people the Boltons are, and in the same breath say that Littlefinger didn't have an idea of who Ramsay was (*as explained by show writers*) Sure, she knew Roose killed her brother and mother at the Red Wedding. But I don't find it reasonable that she knew Ramsay was a sadistic psycho until Myranda warned her on her wedding day, which she had cause to disbelieve because she rightly pointed out that Myranda wanted Ramsay for herself.

Edit: The resignation on her face, then, in that last scene can be reasonably interpreted as realizing Myranda was right, but now she was in a position where she couldn't stop it.

[Joey Ray III]

care about the rape in regards to how it affects the story. Basically, the critique is that it doesn't and that it is gratuitous.

it was literally the last scene shown so far. we're yet to see how it affects the story.

Sansa still hates the Boltons, Ramsay Bolton is still a shithead.

theon.

[KrazyK923]

Edit: The resignation on her face, then, in that last scene can be reasonably interpreted as realizing Myranda was right, but now she was in a position where she couldn't stop it.

When was she ever in a position to stop it? She could have run, but not only would that put her in a far more dangerous situation (imo) of complete uncertainty and relying upon random smallfolk for protection as meatshields while she runs about the North, but her only other option would be to try and put up some resistance to Ramsay.

And once again, we know how Ramsay deals with that.

[Wyattbw09]

And to reduce her entire character to an abuse victim while ignoring literally every other aspect to it is pretty demeaning in and of itself, no?

Absolutely, but I am not the one defending the scene with the idea that some characters should be weak.

[Wilian]

Also, how can we say Sansa knew the type of people the Boltons are

Sansa was always regarded as the good girl, student and whatnot. She'd be very aware of North's Houses, their histories and current events. Obviously there's this small recent thing that happened at Freys too..

, and in the same breath say that Littlefinger didn't have an idea of who Ramsay was (*as explained by show writers*)

Show-writers have been more derp this season in total than last ones combined, you'll have to ask them why they suddenly made Littlefinger go full retard or maybe it's later revealed it was his intent in the end.

But I don't find it reasonable that she knew Ramsay was a sadistic psycho until Myranda warned her on her wedding day, which she had cause to disbelieve because she rightly pointed out that Myranda wanted Ramsay for herself.

If we take away the whole thing of Bolton's Bastard being infamous throughout the North, do you think she was too stupid to realize why Theon was as he was?

[goblingirl]

Ugh, the wedding night scene made it to national news: "Did they go too far?".

It's like the people doing the complaining havent been watchng the show. This isn't the first time a scene like this has happened, so I dont understand why this one is sending watchers over the edge.

I'm one of those who didn't like it (nor did anyone else in my household). I will try to articulate why, and probably fail at it.

Of all the storylines, Sansa's is now probably the largest single deviation from the books. She replaces fake!Arya/Jeyne Poole, now, in the North. Obviously, some deviations are to be expected because you can't possibly fully translate thousands of book pages to ~70-80 hours of screen time (assuming the series lasts 7-8 seasons, at this point who knows really).

However, I'd prefer those deviations to come in the form of eliminating extraneous stuff (of which there is plenty that wouldn't be missed onscreen), rather than wholesale changing major storylines. But that's just me. There's also the plot hole regarding the fact that she is, in fact, already married, and Tyrion isn't dead (nor do any characters on the show think he's dead, Cersei's got half of Westeros out looking for him and there's a price on his head). So unless the words "dissolution" or "annulment" were mentioned somewhere and we missed it, or bigamy is legal, the fact that she could marry again at all was confusing. She's asked about her virginity, but if that's why she's free to marry again, it should have been made clear. It's bad enough to change the storyline drastically of a major character, it's worse when you don't even do it well enough to tidy up loose ends.

Secondly... Ramsey Snow/Bolton. Really? Of all the storylines in the books, that one always seemed the most wasteful of space, and mostly there for shock factor. Dude's psychotic. He's a secondary character who tortures other secondary/tertiary characters. So far, nothing he's done in the books seems particularly material to the way the books will end. I hope we don't get to the end of the GoT series and say "aw hell... all that screen time wasted on a madman storyline that wasn't needed, when we could have seen much more of <insert cool thing here>." (Plus, every time I look at the guy playing him with the curly brown haired wig and blue eyes, all I can see is "demented hobbit extra they picked up in New Zealand".)

Basically, the entire Ramsey storyline, including Sansa's wedged-in part of it, seems gratuitous.

It doesn't help that the rest of the episode was bad. The casting (and writing, thus acting/dialog) on the Sand Snakes is terrible. They don't even remotely look like fighters (please don't tell me they couldn't have found some strong women for those roles who had seen the inside of a gym this lifetime). Jamie and Bronn just walking into the garden like idiots, when we all know they're better strategists than that. The Sand Snakes just coincidentally making their move at the same time. In future years when we re-watch the series, can almost guarantee that this will be one of the few episodes we skip. Other than the bit with Tyrion and the slavers, and a brief few minutes with Arya, there wasn't much worth seeing the first time, much less a second or third.

For a show that usually has remarkably consistent episodes from start to finish, this one was remarkably below standard.

[KrazyK923]

Absolutely, but I am not the one defending the scene with the idea that some characters should be weak.

That's a pretty reductive conclusion to my, and other people's, points.

[eschatological]

But Sansa exists for more than that. And to reduce her entire character to an abuse victim while ignoring literally every other aspect to it is pretty demeaning in and of itself, no?

You want an abuse victim with no actual other story purpose? Look at Jeyne Poole. But that certainly is not true of Sansa. However overcoming abuse/hardships is a big part of her character. And to throw her in with Ramsay Bolton, of all people, and expect the show to completely break his character and treat her like a queen is far, far more objectionable to me than seeing a terrible character doing a terrible thing like someone would expect.

I think he's more saying that, from a storytelling perspective, there needs to be a payoff from this trauma rather than just ruining her to be a weak character for the rest of the show.

And my argument is that the payoff (her revenge, the North rising to her defense, etc) would have been a result of all that already happened. Again, like you all rightly pointed out: conjecture until we see more episodes, but like I said a few pages back, I don't trust D&D's storytelling, and they have continuously added gratuitous (defined: non-plot driven) violence *and* sex, though never so (potentially) boldly.

[KrazyK923]

I think he's more saying that, from a storytelling perspective, there needs to be a payoff from this trauma rather than just ruining her to be a weak character for the rest of the show.

And my argument is that the payoff (her revenge, the North rising to her defense, etc) would have been a result of all that already happened. Again, like you all rightly pointed out: conjecture until we see more episodes, but like I said a few pages back, I don't trust D&D's storytelling, and they have continuously added gratuitous (defined: non-plot driven) violence *and* sex, though never so (potentially) boldly.

So then maybe stop repeating that it's not going to add anything to the story while us not having seen anything yet.

[Deleted]

How about

People stop being immature about this, it's just a TV show in the end (Weird right?!)

As with any show, you'll have to tune in next week to find out how it'll affect Sansa's arc.

Just keep in mind, she did (supposedly) have a chance to turn away from it all. She chose to marry Ramsay, no matter the consequences, not being fully aware of them until it was 'too late'

[eschatological]

Again, what is your argument? There's tons of it. It all either happens to non-entities, in the story, or it happens for a reason, and drives a character's development (which makes it, by definition, not gratuitous). I'm defining gratuitous here as in moving the plot forward of the story, not in terms of the extent or quality of the violence/sex itself.

Also, GRRM is very deliberate with sexual violence int he books, and it has not yet happened to any of the main character women in his books, let alone a POV character woman. Even the rape which started Robert's Rebellion is largely theorized to have been a secret marriage of affection.

[Wilian]

has not yet happened to any of the main character women in his books, let alone a POV character woman

How is this relevant in context of the show though?

[Wyattbw09]

Yeah because we all know ASOIAF has no non-plot violence or sex, right?

Books and television are judged on different metrics, people can generally write whatever they want into their 12,000 page books, and people would critique part of the book, but not argue that they had to leave more valuable parts on the floor.

This show runs 60 minutes, and putting in non-plot driven scenes, especially ones that involve pointless violence like rape, seriously, harm the overall value of the show, and deserve much heavier critique then similar actions in the text.

Now if you are arguing that the show has previously used non-plot violence and sex in the show itself, most of those scenes did come with complaints, over they accumulate over time becoming louder and louder each time the show does it.