[TV/Books] Game of Thrones ***SPOILER Discussion***

[eschatological]

How is this relevant in context of the show though?

Because it means it was made by D&D and their writing staff, and can be used as a judgment of their storytelling.

[Jotaux]

I think the scene was unnecessary in that we have seen Ramsey do far worse, so it was only surprising in how tame it was. The scene would have been much more effective had it followed the book more closely but given the reaction the current scene has garnered I can see why they didn't go that route.

And seriously, in medieval times do you really expect a new husband and wife to not have sex, consensual or not?

[Wilian]

Because it means it was made by D&D and their writing staff, and can be used as a judgment of their storytelling.

If it was about Daenerys rape you would have a point. That served absolutely no purpose and in fact made Dany's arc seem more unsensical because it missed the entire realization to her that Drogo is not rapist but most likely a caring man despite appearing barbaric to her.

However, in Sansa's case it's very clear that it was made especially to further Theon's plotline and they'll most likely use it as his breaking point to go spill the beans for Sansa, whom then starts plotting with Theon instead of her just waiting for miracle that is Littlefinger.

In two cases the latter one is very much a good tool of story progression. The fact he made Theon watch was the entire point of the scene.

[Deleted]

Also, GRRM is very deliberate with sexual violence int he books, and it has not yet happened to any of the main character women in his books, let alone a POV character woman. Even the rape which started Robert's Rebellion is largely theorized to have been a secret marriage of affection.

Well if were gonna start down this path, lets go back to Daenerys in Season 1.

[KrazyK923]

Books and television are judged on different metrics, people can generally write whatever they want into their 12,000 page books, and people would critique part of the book, but not argue that they had to leave more valuable parts on the floor.

This show runs 60 minutes, and putting in non-plot driven scenes, especially ones that involve pointless violence like rape, seriously, harm the overall value of the show, and deserve much heavier critique then similar actions in the text.

Now if you are arguing that the show has previously used non-plot violence and sex in the show itself, most of those scenes did come with complaints, over they accumulate over time becoming louder and louder each time the show does it.

Except arguing that what happened to Sansa was non-plot violence is complete conjecture.

[Wyattbw09]

And seriously, in medieval times do you really expect a new husband and wife to not have sex, consensual or not?

Why do people keep using medieval times as the metric of what is normal or moral behavior? Just because they use swords, does not mean the show is based on medieval morality.

[KrazyK923]

How is this relevant in context of the show though?

Like I said, falling back on the "But it wasn't in the books!" claim as if that means good or bad.

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Why do people keep using medieval times as the metric of what is normal or moral behavior? Just because they use swords, does not mean the show is based on medieval morality.

Why do people keep using current times as a metric of what would be normal or moral in a world filled with terrible violence and oppression? Which is pretty silly too since our world is filled with terrible violence and oppression but people throwing a fit seem to think the world is a fluffy cupcake paradise.

Also its pretty obviously set in a fantasy medieval time.

[Wilian]

Why do people keep using medieval times as the metric of what is normal or moral behavior? Just because they use swords, does not mean the show is based on medieval morality.

...Because the show is set in period of medieval times?

[Deleted]

Honestly, I think this sort of thing needed to happen to Sansa so she can properly grow as her character. Her situation has parallels with Arya's despite the journey being very different. Up until now, they've both have been in some danger but they've always more or less had some sort of safety net. With Arya, you had the Night's Watch and The Hound. With Sansa, you had Tyrion and Littlefinger.

After what happened with Lysa last season and having grown in confidence beside Littlefinger, Sansa fooled herself into thinking she had control. The same way Arya tried to fool herself she wanted to become no-one. Sansa made the decision to go to Winterfell because a) she wants revenge for her family and b) she thinks that she knows enough to play the game. (i.e. that scene with Miranda). She gives her hand to Ramsey and she knows the traditions of marriage having already been married so when she says yes, she knows that there will probably be a consummation.

Now, at this point, she underestimates Ramsey's cruelty and overestimates her position and pays the price for it. She's always been the Stark that can't quite accept the way the world really is. It took Arya hearing about her mother and brother being slaughtered to do that for her. This is Sansa's darkest moment and it'll forge her as a player. A bit like Daenarys in season one. She'll realise she's alone and has to fend for herself, that the world is cruel and horrible place and that the only person that will be able to help her is herself. I expect her she'll deal with Littlefinger differently next time she seems him also.

Obviously given what happened to her, people don't think about Theon but she was practically his sister and i'm sure there was a part of him that wanted to stop it but he's too broken to do anything. I hope that he gets some sort of revenge as well.

The characters aside, people saying that rape shouldn't be used as a plot device but when you don't know what the plot is, how can you say? The thing that freaks me out the most about this scene was that we have seen Sophie Turner grow from a child almost and she's off screen acting that out. I mean, they couldn't recast like they did with Tommen but still, just very awkward.

[Wyattbw09]

Except arguing that what happened to Sansa was non-plot violence is complete conjecture.

Except I am not arguing that and never did.

However, the primary theme of this thread of dude, its just a TV show, or they have used gratuitous rape and violence in the past so its cool to do whenever they want now, or the funniest one that crops of dude, this is what medieval times was really like so nobody should object ever to anything (apparently, except to bad acting) is itself as problematic as the people who are calling the scene worthless without knowing what the next few weeks hold.

[eschatological]

"Medieval times" is a culture/tradition. It doesn't change the objective reality of an action, it just justifies it (or doesn't justify it) in a different way.

For example, people have argued in this thread that "in medieval times" this wouldn't be rape. I would argue "sex" is part of the universal experience, and "free will" is part of the universal human experience, so "sex against one's free will" is an objective reality, and, insofar as you see free will as a good thing, an objective evil. That it was excused or accepted is a result of culture and tradition, that doesn't mean it was "right."

But that's a philosophical argument. Philosophers on the other side of things say that the morality of a culture or tradition is all that matters. I think those people are wrong, but oh well.

[Wyattbw09]

On a side note harking back to a few hours ago in this thread, apparently, according to Bryan Cogman who wrote the episode, and is a season 5 producer Littlefinger was actually unaware of Ramsey's reputation and we can infer that he did not expect her to be abused.

http://en.yibada.com/articles/33518/...joy-ramsay.htm

[Jotaux]

"Medieval times" is a culture/tradition. It doesn't change the objective reality of an action, it just justifies it (or doesn't justify it) in a different way.

I don't think anyone is saying rape is right, but they are saying this is the reality of the situation Sansa is in.

I have since changed my mind since my last post and think this scene was absolutely necessary in order to convey the type of relationship that exists between Sansa, Ramsay and Theon. I still would have preferred them to follow the books more closely with this scene.

[eschatological]

On a side note harking back to a few hours ago in this thread, apparently, according to Bryan Cogman who wrote the episode, and is a season 5 producer Littlefinger was actually unaware of Ramsey's reputation and we can infer that he did not expect her to be abused.

http://en.yibada.com/articles/33518/...joy-ramsay.htm

That's what I was referring to when I critiqued the idea that Sansa knew what she was getting into. The show Ramsay isn't as notorious as the book Ramsay. The whole thing with the Hornwoods never happened in the show. And in both the books and the show, no one knows it was actually Bolton men who sacked and burned Winterfell, and killed everyone inside, and blamed it on Theon's Greyjoys.

[Wilian]

So they made Littlefinger be full derp as well. Doesn't surprise me.

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That's what I was referring to when I critiqued the idea that Sansa knew what she was getting into. The show Ramsay isn't as notorious as the book Ramsay. The whole thing with the Hornwoods never happened in the show. And in both the books and the show, no one knows it was actually Bolton men who sacked and burned Winterfell, and killed everyone inside, and blamed it on Theon's Greyjoys.

But it also quite clearly states this, which is what I've said all along:

"This isn't a timid little girl walking into a wedding night with Joffrey. This is a hardened woman making a choice and she sees this as the way to get back her homeland,"

[Ilikegreenfire]

People need to realize the as of now Sana is no more of an abuse victim then Daeny was in episode one. What Ramsey does after this however could very well turn the corner to abuse, but all Ramsey has done as of now was to consummate the Marriage. Both Daney and Sansa were taken on their wedding night, they both cried, but they knew it had to happen, so they let it be done, neither of them fought back neither said no.

This same thing has probably happened to most of the noble ladies in GOT. Few marry for love. On their wedding nights most of them have to have awkward sex with a husband who they have only just met while the rest of the household listens, i am sure plenty of them have cried. Think back to Catelyn and Ned they had to deal with the very same awkward sex after just meeting (now granted Ned is obviously a better man then Ramsey) but they didn't even like each other originally, like Daeny and Drogo they gradually fell in love after the marriage. Now i doubt Ramsey and Sansa will ever fall I love but the people crying abuse need to realize the real abuse, if any, has not even happened yet.

If anything this shows just how strong Sansa is, she did her duty instead of trying to fight which in the end would just have been futile, and would likely just have gotten Ramsey to force her violently, and then lock her up in a tower or something after he was done, destroying any ability Sansa has to act against the Boltons. As of now Ramsey may do some light psychological torture but even he knows that he it is best to keep Sansa as healthy as possible to mother his children, meaning he will not have her on as tight of a leash as he could have, the moment she fights him however he will make her life a true hell.

[Wyattbw09]

"This isn't a timid little girl walking into a wedding night with Joffrey. This is a hardened woman making a choice and she sees this as the way to get back her homeland,"

Which is fine, but I think it de-contextualizes the scene. The scene was designed in a way to ensure that the audience inferred that Ramsey was was not merely consummating his marriage. He was going to make is as long and painful (both physically and mentally) as he could. It was supposed to be clear he was going to abuse and harm her in whatever ways he could imagine.

[eschatological]

I like how people say "Sansa barely knew how to play the game and this scene was needed to make her a true game player," but then justify her making her choice on incomplete knowledge by saying "this is a hardened woman making a choice."

You don't see the incompatibility of those two ideas? Had she had more information, true information, she might have chosen differently, or acted differently, no? You can't just say she doesn't understand the game and this makes her understand the game....and then say "oh, she knew what was up" right afterwards.

[Wilian]

I like how people say "Sansa barely knew how to play the game and this scene was needed to make her a true game player," but then justify her making her choice on incomplete knowledge by saying "this is a hardened woman making a choice."

You don't see the incompatibility of those two ideas? Had she had more information, true information, she might have chosen differently, or acted differently, no? You can't just say she doesn't understand the game and this makes her understand the game....and then say "oh, she knew what was up" right afterwards.

So far being the only one who said this here, I'm certain you'll be able to pick and point out the parts of your accusation that are true?

[Wyattbw09]

If anything this shows just how strong Sansa is, she did her duty instead of trying to fight which in the end would just have been futile, and would likely just have gotten Ramsey to force her violently, and then lock her up in a tower or something after he was done

He can't, the whole scene is a display of Ramsey's stupidity.

Roose marries her to Ramsey for one reason and one reason only, she will legitimize the role of the Boltens as Wardens of the North among the other northern Lords, who are already on the verge of rebellion. If the Northern Lords every get wind of the fact the Ramsey is abusing the last Stark, they will go in full rebellion.

I think there is decent chance that Roose will kill Ramsey himself when he finds out how he is treating Sansa and his abuse causes him to loose his grip on the north.