[TV/Books] Game of Thrones ***SPOILER Discussion***

[Frontenac]

If only people could discuss like this over things that actually matter.

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Won't Roose's kid stand above that child if it's a boy?

Well, I think that was a problem posed in the episode before the last. If Walda's child takes precedence over Ramsey, then, yes, Sansa's child would stand after him. However, if Ramsey remains the heir, then Sansa's child would stand before Walda's. My question was not about succession though, but more about how it would change the dynamics (emotional or maybe even political) in the "Ramsan" couple.

[Ilikegreenfire]

Unless Roose makes he new kid this heir directly I think Ramsey's child would stand above it. The wiki for the books talks about Ryman Frey Walder Frey's grandson being second in line to inherit the Twins after her is father Stevron not one of his uncles.

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php...7B3.7D.7D.7D-1

[KrazyK923]

Why can't Sansa get revenge as a renegade Lady commanding an army from the mountains and hills of Winterfell against the Boltons? Why can't she stir a rebellion as the last Stark-of-Winterfell and starve Bolton out? Why can't she go to the myriad houses in the North that hate the Boltons and what they did to the Starks and muster support to take back Winterfell? Why can't she lay siege to Winterfell with Stannis? I mean, she knows Stannis is planning on marching on Winterfell, and that he's at the Wall - what's another couple hundred miles when they make the journey from the Vale to Winterfell in an episode (that's me being a bit facetious, but it could happen in the compressed-time of a television show)? Why aren't those choices, if we're deviating from the books already? Hell, Theon took Winterfell with a couple dozen men, although it was much less lightly garrisoned at that point.

Most importantly, how are those less revenge-y than marrying the son of the man who murdered the Lord of Winterfell and his mother? Or, how does marrying him make it "more revenge-y"?

See, now you're really the one coming off as disliking a choice she makes. But it still is a choice.

As to why for your SPECIFIC vision of Sansa? Well for one she isn't a military commander. She knows even less about that than Littlefinger does. Why can't she stir a rebellion? Because that shit would get squashed the second Roose finds out about it. Its one thing to push pieces behind the scenes into place, its another when you're trying to raise an army to rival the Boltons from within the capital of the Boltons. And while there are people who still support the Starks, they are scattered to the winds of the North. They are not concentrated in any capacity whatsoever.

Why can't she lay siege to Winterfell with Stannis? Well she's not there with him, for one. And I'm just guessing here, but I think she wants to get revenge personally on the Boltons. Not let Stannis come in and kill them all. Furthermore, she doesn't know how receptive Stannis would be. We as the viewers know he'd probably be pretty receptive to her since Stannis always liked Ned, but Sansa has no knowledge about this outside of Littlefinger telling her Stannis will be coming.

And I'm not even sure why you bothered mentioning Theon. You even acknowledge there were virtually no guards in Winterfell when Theon took it. He also had the benefit of complete surprise. Nobody knew Theon would do that.

You are upset at the choice Sansa made. But it was her choice. And all of what you've mentioned there seem far more unreasonable than what Sansa is doing right now. It would take a level of influence, knowledge, gold, and power that Sansa simply does not possess on her own.

Its fine if you're upset at the last scene in the episode. I'm pretty sure 99.99999999% of us were. And that was the point. But it was a series of choices Sansa specifically made to get there. When there were multiple opportunities for her to turn tail and run if she so wanted. But just because I disliked witnessing what I did does not mean that the writing was bad. It does not mean it was done just to hurt Sansa for some grim entertainment. And it seems a bit juvenile to me to pretend it does. It shows a real lack of understanding of a difference between why a narrative thread was written and the actual narrative thread itself.

Like being upset that Dumbledore was killed while ignoring WHY Rowling decided to kill him.

[Ilikegreenfire]

Sansa maybe a Stark, but at the end of the day she is still a women, one that does not know how to fight at that, and in the Game of Thrones universe that makes her chances of staging a rebelling within the Greyjoys walls incredibly slim. Daeny was able to raise and army because she had the dragons. Unless Sansa has an equivalent that will inspire both awe and fear of all those around her, her chances are slim, of taking down the Boltons that way atleast.

[eschatological]

Unless Roose makes he new kid this heir directly I think Ramsey's child would stand above it. The wiki for the books talks about Ryman Frey Walder Frey's grandson being second in line to inherit the Twins after her is father Stevron not one of his uncles.

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php...7B3.7D.7D.7D-1

I think that once Ramsay is heir, his whole line is heir.

One thing I wanted to ask because it's been bothering me: Does anyone actually have HBO and try and DVR this show? I've spent seasons DVRing this show, and suddenly in the past month, no HBO show I DVR records properly. If it's a half hour show, it cuts off the first 7 minutes or so, if it's an hour show, it'll cut off about 15-17 minutes. It's annoying as fuck. I've had to watch the first 17 minutes elsewhere. And it's every thing on HBO, and just HBO. None of my other recordings suffer.

You are upset at the choice Sansa made. But it was her choice. And all of what you've mentioned there seem far more unreasonable than what Sansa is doing right now. It would take a level of influence, knowledge, gold, and power that Sansa simply does not possess on her own.

I'm not personally upset about it. I just think it doesn't make sense in the narrative of the show. I strongly disagree that her way was "the least unreasonable." She has the Stark name, and that's the root of all her power. Littlefinger knows that, the Boltons especially know that, she knows it. I'm not saying she raises an army and leads them in battle. But she could go to White Harbor, tell the Manderlys what's up, and the Manderlys would fight the Boltons to the death. And that's just one example of the Northern houses.

I think you're a bit too dismissive of how much power Sansa has as the "last Stark" (as far as most people know), and the visceral dislike of the Boltons, even before there was ever a Red Wedding. And Littlefinger would have known Stannis would rally around her, he just wanted her in Winterfell for his own ends (the show Littlefinger seems a lot more self-interested and less obsessed with Sansa). If she could get to Winterfell from the Vale, she could get to the Wall from the Vale.

But just because I disliked witnessing what I did does not mean that the writing was bad.

That is nowhere near the reason I think the writing is bad. There's lot of television which makes me physically uncomfortable watching. The Sopranos, for example, had numerous examples. The writing is bad because the choices the characters made, I argue, don't make sense. The scene makes sense when it's Jeyne, who has no actual power as a minor servant from Winterfell.

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Because not every woman on TV needs to be a Joan of Arc.

You really have a thing about this. It's dramatic television. A character (male or female) who just serves to be weak and beaten up doesn't serve any narrative purpose.

[KrazyK923]

I'm not personally upset about it. I just think it doesn't make sense in the narrative of the show. I strongly disagree that her way was "the least unreasonable." She has the Stark name, and that's the root of all her power. Littlefinger knows that, the Boltons especially know that, she knows it. I'm not saying she raises an army and leads them in battle. But she could go to White Harbor, tell the Manderlys what's up, and the Manderlys would fight the Boltons to the death. And that's just one example of the Northern houses.

I think you're a bit too dismissive of how much power Sansa has as the "last Stark" (as far as most people know), and the visceral dislike of the Boltons, even before there was ever a Red Wedding. And Littlefinger would have known Stannis would rally around her, he just wanted her in Winterfell for his own ends (the show Littlefinger seems a lot more self-interested and less obsessed with Sansa). If she could get to Winterfell from the Vale, she could get to the Wall from the Vale.

The root of her power when the Boltons don't have their boot on the necks of the North. There are no organized resistances in the North. The people who are loyal to her are on their own, with no standing force to suddenly rise up and fight for her. There are individual people who might have an above-average level of power, like Brienne, but there is no standing force that she can run to, then turn around, and attack Wintefell with. That is why your version of Sansa is completely unreasonable. It simply cannot exist in the world as it stands by the last episode. Sure, she could escape and run to a house. And guess what? The second Sansa leaves not only is her plan of getting revenge several set back, because you know the Boltons are going to go batshit insane due to her leaving. But it also blatantly ruins Littlefinger's planning that he flatout told to Sansa, and she seemingly is going along with.

Once again, you are basically wishing that multiple characters suddenly act completely different to how they've been the entire time. Sansa to suddenly rise up as some military leader. Littlefinger to run to Stannis with Sansa when his plan is to have the two of them destroy one another. Ramsay to not do what he's done to Sansa as he's done to everybody else.

Sorry to say but it really just comes off like you wanting to change the personalities of characters because you didn't like watching the scene. And as I said, that seems quite juvenile and reductive from a narrative standpoint. Changing established characters because you personally were upset at something. That is an absolutely horrendous way to approach writing such an expansive world as ASOIAF, let alone any narrative world.

That is nowhere near the reason I think the writing is bad. There's lot of television which makes me physically uncomfortable watching. The Sopranos, for example, had numerous examples. The writing is bad because the choices the characters made, I argue, don't make sense. The scene makes sense when it's Jeyne, who has no actual power as a minor servant from Winterfell.

You claim they don't make sense yet the only counter you've offered flies in the face of the personalities of several of the characters. All because you don't like that Sansa was raped. It makes sense because it was Jeyne? Why again? Because Sansa is a major character and Jeyne isn't? So that makes her status as basically just an object to abuse and torment by Ramsay ok? That's an interesting viewpoint of characters if you really think that.

You really have a thing about this. It's dramatic television. A character (male or female) who just serves to be weak and beaten up doesn't serve any narrative purpose.

Except she doesn't at all, and its really quite demeaning to the character to ignore everything about her except the fact that she's been abused to make this point. And especially hypocritical since you seem to want to die on this hill of "Ra ra Sansa, she deserves to be more than an abuse victim!" when that isn't everything to the character.

[Friendlyimmolation]

Ramsay Jr?

*shutters*

Then we will need a Reek Jr.

Think of the father/son bonding over flaying poor sods.

[Feali]

Then we will need a Reek Jr.

Think of the father/son bonding over flaying poor sods.

Well Rickon is still around somewhere

[Ilikegreenfire]

Even if Sansa does end up simply being a punching bag(which I doubt) I would say she would serve a purpose. She is a constant reminder every episode of how bad things happen to good people, of how the dicks in the world tend to screw over the good guys.

Though i have a feeling that Sansa will get her due soon.

[Friendlyimmolation]

Well Rickon is still around somewhere

Hey man Rickon is my G, he named his wolf Shaggydog. That's metal as fuck.

[Flutterguy]

Sansa is the most boring character on GoT. She's always been the most boring character. Dany isn't far behind her in that regard though.

[Feali]

When the show started, I saw Dany as very interesting and Sansa as very boring. It wasn't till Season four that my interest in Sansa's story started to peak my interest more. But I think Dany's story started to fall flat in Season 4 and in this current season.

I think it's like that for everyone.

[KrazyK923]

When the show started, I saw Dany as very interesting and Sansa as very boring. It wasn't till Season four that my interest in Sansa's story started to peak my interest more. But I think Dany's story started to fall flat in Season 4 and in this current season.

Yeah, I feel exactly the same way. Basically the end of S4 swapped my interest in the two characters. Sansa became interesting and Dany became SUPER boring, only losing out to Bran's snoozefest of a story.

[Feali]

By the way if anyone is interested because I sure was surprised: main stream media being neutral:

http://variety.com/2015/tv/news/game...bo-1201500961/

Actually a good article about this.

[KrazyK923]

This article from the Washington Post was good too:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/a.../?tid=pm_pop_b

[Frontenac]

I'm not personally upset about it. I just think it doesn't make sense in the narrative of the show. I strongly disagree that her way was "the least unreasonable." She has the Stark name, and that's the root of all her power. Littlefinger knows that, the Boltons especially know that, she knows it.

Sansa's family name is not a power. It's an asset. And you can burn your asset if you don't play it the right way at the right time. And yes, the Boltons are aware of that asset. They actually think it's an asset for them. They expect Sansa will stabilize the situation in the North for the Boltons. Ramsey knows that she may not be cooperative, so he humiliates her in an attempt to break her. So that the next time they see some rebellious bannermen she would say "It's alright. Accept the Boltons as I did."

I'm not saying she raises an army and leads them in battle. But she could go to White Harbor, tell the Manderlys what's up, and the Manderlys would fight the Boltons to the death. And that's just one example of the Northern houses.

No, she couldn't. As bride to be, she was an honoured guest. As wife, well, she is part of the family. If she refused Littlefinger's idea, and she went to Manderly or any other friendly house, she would have been an enemy. She would have been hunted down, and the house who would have harboured her would have been destroyed as an exemple. So that no other house would dare to shelter her.

I think you're a bit too dismissive of how much power Sansa has as the "last Stark" (as far as most people know), and the visceral dislike of the Boltons, even before there was ever a Red Wedding. And Littlefinger would have known Stannis would rally around her, he just wanted her in Winterfell for his own ends (the show Littlefinger seems a lot more self-interested and less obsessed with Sansa). If she could get to Winterfell from the Vale, she could get to the Wall from the Vale.

The Boltons may be hated, but they are feared, and that weighs more heavily in the balance. Also, she would not have been able to get to the Wall. Certainly with that huge escort of knights from the Vale. They were expected in the North because Littlefinger arranged the wedding before they left the Vale. Roose Bolton controls the North. He controls the King's Road that leads to the Wall. He would know. Do you really think that he would have let them go to the Wall with the risk that they might join Stannis?

That is nowhere near the reason I think the writing is bad. There's lot of television which makes me physically uncomfortable watching. The Sopranos, for example, had numerous examples. The writing is bad because the choices the characters made, I argue, don't make sense. The scene makes sense when it's Jeyne, who has no actual power as a minor servant from Winterfell.

What I said about Ramsey's intentions makes it having even more sense than with Jeyne Pool. Ramsey's has a reason to "tame the shrew."

[Feali]

This article from the Washington Post was good too:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/a.../?tid=pm_pop_b

This describes it perfectly.

For me, the scene of Sansa’s rape was tremendously unpleasant, but the care taken in the staging, acting and shooting of the scene made it impossible for me to regard it as lazy or slapdash.

[eschatological]

I think the episode was made better by Dany's storyline not being in it at all. I do not look forward to potentially having Grey Worm/Missandei + Bronn/Tyene in the same episode.

[Feali]

I think the episode was made better by Dany's storyline not being in it at all. I do not look forward to potentially having Grey Worm/Missandei + Bronn/Tyene in the same episode.

But in season 6 Bran comes back! Isn't that great?

[eschatological]

This Washington Post op-ed writer says she views the show as about "the consequences of rape, and denial of sexual autonomy."

I'm not sure I would agree with that.