[TV/Books] Game of Thrones ***SPOILER Discussion***

[Puri]

In an unexpected turn of events I just found out that the Waif was actually trained by the swiss army: http://www.vtg.admin.ch/internet/vtg...tze/peace.html

[Elim Garak]

Zig-zaging is overrated. It's a pattern, a pattern one can figure out and adjust to. I've yet to see a person do zig-zags in a random pattern. It's always left, right, left, right or right, left, right, left. One just have to wait a bit to see how it goes and loose an arrow at the right moment. Sheesh.

Zig-zags are really only useful at short ranges, where each move breaks the aim significantly. At longer ranges, not so much.

[Tempguy]

Zig-zaging is overrated. It's a pattern, a pattern one can figure out and adjust to. I've yet to see a person do zig-zags in a random pattern. It's always left, right, left, right or right, left, right, left. One just have to wait a bit to see how it goes and loose an arrow at the right moment. Sheesh.

Zig-zags are really only useful at short ranges, where each move breaks the aim significantly. At longer ranges, not so much.

Pretty much. And good luck keeping a sound mind that can keep track and make things random. Otherwise you will fall into a pattern.

Ramsay gave 0 fucks that scene. He missed on purpose each time and knew he could kill him at will. He waited until just before Jon reached him to do it.

Rikon could have rolled, done flips , zig zagged and even doubled back , it wouldn't have made any difference. You are co paring a scared kid running for his life, to a grown man who hunts people for fun. Sansa knew the deal. Rikon was dead the moment they presented him to Ramsay.

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I want Sansa to die.

Stupid fucking cunt caused the needless deaths of thousands on people.

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Seriously I want her to end existing.

I've never been this fucking mad at a fictional character before.

I hated her too at first, but she has grown into a decent character.

But yea, not telling Jon she had called for assistance and was waiting on the word was stupid as shit. You don't do that. Not if you want to live and keep allies.

If Jon was smart (Starks are not too bright) he'd remember that stunt and keep an eye on her ass.

[Tempguy]

Bitch should be locked in a tower where she can't stupid her way into killing more people.

Ramsay had the right idea I see.

I mean, he was evil as shit, but no one can say he wasn't smart.

[KrazyK923]

*Goes to look at the thread*

Whelp. Same people. Same bitching.

[Deleted]

Rickon didn't have a chance because the plot required it. All he needed to do was look back and change direction the moment arrow was released.

I mean, this general concensus about zig zaging implies that Ramsey's a lousy shooter. He shot 4 arrows, first 3 of them with intention to miss, to give Jon a false hope that he could save Rickon, only to take it away with the last arrow. FWIW, Ramsay had what? hundreds, maybe thousand of archers standing there, he could've just rain all those arrows all over Rickon, should he had made it to Jon. Sansa got it right, Rickon was dead from the get-go.

[Tommy T]

All well and good arguing 'logic' but if you had been imprisoned by a monster for months, and you had a hope at freedom, I doubt you would be thinking entirely clear. Even more so that he's a child.

[Wilian]

I mean, this general concensus about zig zaging implies that Ramsey's a lousy shooter. He shot 4 arrows, first 3 of them with intention to miss, to give Jon a false hope that he could save Rickon, only to take it away with the last arrow. FWIW, Ramsay had what? hundreds, maybe thousand of archers standing there, he could've just rain all those arrows all over Rickon, should he had made it to Jon. Sansa got it right, Rickon was dead from the get-go.

I don't understand what you're trying to go at here. Obviously Rickon was dead, that was not the point of contest here. The point was that under no circumstances had Rickon had a shred of sense he'd be singled out by Ramsay especially after that distance had he simply adjusted his run directions randomly and actually looked back when arrow was released.

In before another "but he'd have to look back!" well duh, normal people don't stumble about even if they look back while running over plain field.

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All well and good arguing 'logic' but if you had been imprisoned by a monster for months, and you had a hope at freedom, I doubt you would be thinking entirely clear. Even more so that he's a child.

He was clearly in his full senses, his whole posture and expression were clear from get-go. There was also no signs of mistreatment on him.

[catablitz]

So much interest for zig zag wow! Rickon was a numb captive for much time and 12 years(?) old. If Ramsey failed to hit him and he was about to go out of range he would order a volley shot. Script choice was dramatic and justified more John's mind flipping.

[Tommy T]

Jesus Christ. The plot required Rickon to die, so he died. End of story.

Agreed.

Worse than the 'Stannis is Alive' tripe.

[Tempguy]

We get plot demanded it, but wording it like that implies it was stupid , had no merit, and was shoddy in execution.

Yes the plot demanded he die, but it's not like it is out of nowhere. If Ramsay never shot an arrow in his life, and Rikon was usain bolt quick, then yeah I'd agree that it was all just for plots sake. But this was one of the times this season when something remained consistent with the setup.

If Tamsay wanted he would have killed the kid prior. Or killer the kid on the first shot. Or just had his archers rain down arrows once Jon www I range and killed them both.

But this is Ramsay. He's a sadist. He wants Jon to suffer first, gather his men and be stupid, then have a bloodbath. Basically, shit that has been established since Theon still had a cock.

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Fuck it. I'm too tired to fix these stupid damn typos. Ever since a certain update, my iPhone has been fucking up my spelling left and right.

[pateuvasiliu]

It was in Ramsay's advantage not to kill Jon. Him being mad and charging like an idiot allowed Ramsay to surround them.

[Deleted]

Well, there is still the prophecy that she will meet Arya again, so I rather assume Ser Davos is going to burn when he tries to stab her.

Exactly, more pr0ufs that Arya will go to Winterfell, stop by in White Harbor n bring Manderlys with her, maybe kill a few Freys there. Assuming Toofattoride's son has been returned.
Davos...he is responsible that Stannis attacked Mance which led to many casualties, many starved incl families that didn't make it to Hardholme, once there most got butchered by White Walkers...very few made it past the wall...Thx Davos!...Like he should lecture anyone...

[eschatological]

It would look downright silly if he zig zagged and lived. If it was that easy then Ramsay would have been experienced enough to choose another gimmick.

I don't think he should have zig-zagged and lived. But this universe has set itself up as a realistic, brutal place, where things don't live up to heroic expectations. Remember the other famous "shooting at a moving target" moment in this series? Where Edmure misses 3 arrows at a boat floating down a river in a straight, lazy line? It then sets up the Blackfish one-shotting it like a pro, but it also keeps consistent with the world, where cocky young men like Edmure fail and the men who live long enough to be grizzled old dudes like the Blackfish are somewhat capable. This also speaks to the lazy way Blackfish died just an episode before this one.

If I was writing the scene, the set up would be the same. Ramsay would want to fuck with Jon hard, and he would play this game. Rickon would have zigged, he would have zagged, he would have ducked behind one of the flayed men. Ramsay would miss the first shot on purpose, to fuck with Jon and get him riding towards Rickon. By shot 2, he'd be trying. His smirk would start fading as one arrow hits a flayed man. One arrow hits where Rickon would have been if he'd kept moving in the same direction. Fourth arrow just nips behind his ankles because Ramsay's losing his cool. Then, in anger, Ramsay orders a whole volley just to kill Rickon right in front of Jon. That way, we see both the Bastards losing their cool, becoming emotional - but we see the contrast in that. Jon's losing his cool is in a typical Stark way, it leads to fear and bad tactics and nearly his whole force dying. Personally, I would have had Jon kneel by Rickon's body, trying to pull arrows out of him, Ramsay firing off another volley, Jon, snapping out of it, and running back to his now charging force, where he mounts up and leads the charge (counter to their plan). Ramsay, in losing his cool, becomes more sadistic, more crazy, more non-traditional, tactics-wise, but not more dumb. It also sets itself up as foreshadowing for how the actual battle turns out - Ramsay is cocksure and arrogant, but as the battle wears on, and Jon's forces can't be defeated, it fades, to the point where Ramsay recklessly tells his entire Umber force to do what they did - form a shield wall and push the Starks against a pile of bodies, when his commanders want him to just use that same force from a place of power, inside Winterfell. Enter Vale army, stage left, whose been there the whole time and who Jon has been using as the ace-in-the-hole while taking all the risk himself, possibly at Littlefinger's manipulation.

The problem with a scene like the one above is that it requires writing, and dialogue. Ramsay to his commanders, who advise against him, Littlefinger in the war planning, etc. And that takes away from the non-stop carnage of the battle which pleases 90% of the television watching masses. That's all I want, personally, a narrative that makes sense.

[eschatological]

Rickon is like eleven fucking years old. Kids are known to be retarded, Stark kids doubly so.

That might be another effect of the show aging the child actors. Robb was barely 16 when he died, Sansa might still be under 15 depending on how we measure time in GoT, she got her first period right before she was married to Tyrion and it can't be more than a couple years since then. Rickon was literally a toddler (3? 4?) when the first book started, and can't be more than 7 in the books.

[Frontenac]

That might be another effect of the show aging the child actors. Robb was barely 16 when he died, Sansa might still be under 15 depending on how we measure time in GoT, she got her first period right before she was married to Tyrion and it can't be more than a couple years since then. Rickon was literally a toddler (3? 4?) when the first book started, and can't be more than 7 in the books.

If they had chosen or had been able to produce seasons of 20 episodes instead of 10, we would be at the end of the third season, instead of the sixth. The aging of the child actors would have been less... stark.

[Elim Garak]

I can't care less about their book age, they seem of right age in the show.

[Jotaux]

I want Sansa to die.

Stupid fucking cunt caused the needless deaths of thousands on people.

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Seriously I want her to end existing.

I've never been this fucking mad at a fictional character before.

I agree, I've disliked Sansa since the first episode! I bet she was hoping Jon would die so she could consolidate her power. With him alive, there will always be this push to legitimize him.

[TickTickTick]

The discussion about zig zag is so cringeworthy it can actually top the discussion about dual wielding... I think you are all overthinking and overanalyzing it way toooooo much, to the point where it seems it's some kind of addiction to prove my take on this is legit, and your's not

yes im 100% sure GRRM would spend 100 pages describing how rickon zig zag'ed, but its a show that NO LONGER is relying on the books (since there aren't any yet) so its logical it changed. lets appreciate the fact its a tv show, not a fucking 10000 billion $ super movie with the best writers in the world.

and ofc 1000's of people together would write it better than two guys... doesnt mean there should be 1000's writers for every show.

[Jotaux]

We are just saying Rickon the character should have zig zagged, but he is too stupid to do it and died because of that.